I like the knob type heater valve of the pre-1964 pan, but want to know if there are positives or negatives of one over the other. Thanks in advance for your advice / responses.
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I like the knob type heater valve of the pre-1964 pan, but want to know if there are positives or negatives of one over the other. Thanks in advance for your advice / responses.
Sure!
LOTS of stuff happened after 1964, the most significant being the change in 1969 from a swing axle rear end to an independent rear suspension with drive axles and CV joints (just like modern cars). This, alone, improved overall handling a whole lot.
Also, sometime during the 1960's (1967 I think), VW changed from a link pin front end to a ball joint front end. Lots of controversy there, as many people (particularly drag racers) say the link pin is easier to adjust and holds adjustment better.
Lastly, in 1971 VW migrated to the infamous "Super Beetle" and went to a McPherson Strut front end, which improved handling even more. HOWEVER!! It was a phase-in process, so some 1971 beetles had the old torsion beam and ball joint front end, while others had the McPherson struts. This continued kind of randomly throughout the year until old factory stock ran out at the various factories. They are definitely NOT interchangeable, and because of the higher top of the strut towers that strutted Super beetle pan is not useable on a Speedster unless the entire front suspension is removed and a conversion plate installed to accept the older style torsion beam.
Interestingly, I believe that Brazil made both the swing-arm beetle as well as the IRS version (and also torsion bar and McPherson Strut SB's), whereas Mexico only produced swing arm bugs up until about two years ago. I do not believe that the old-style VW Beetle is being prduced anywhere else in the World now.
Also, in terms of part quality, ANY German-made parts are the highest quality, Brazil is a distant second although usually pretty good, Mexico and Asia (Taiwan/China/India) are a far distant, and questionable, third.
LOTS of stuff happened after 1964, the most significant being the change in 1969 from a swing axle rear end to an independent rear suspension with drive axles and CV joints (just like modern cars). This, alone, improved overall handling a whole lot.
Also, sometime during the 1960's (1967 I think), VW changed from a link pin front end to a ball joint front end. Lots of controversy there, as many people (particularly drag racers) say the link pin is easier to adjust and holds adjustment better.
Lastly, in 1971 VW migrated to the infamous "Super Beetle" and went to a McPherson Strut front end, which improved handling even more. HOWEVER!! It was a phase-in process, so some 1971 beetles had the old torsion beam and ball joint front end, while others had the McPherson struts. This continued kind of randomly throughout the year until old factory stock ran out at the various factories. They are definitely NOT interchangeable, and because of the higher top of the strut towers that strutted Super beetle pan is not useable on a Speedster unless the entire front suspension is removed and a conversion plate installed to accept the older style torsion beam.
Interestingly, I believe that Brazil made both the swing-arm beetle as well as the IRS version (and also torsion bar and McPherson Strut SB's), whereas Mexico only produced swing arm bugs up until about two years ago. I do not believe that the old-style VW Beetle is being prduced anywhere else in the World now.
Also, in terms of part quality, ANY German-made parts are the highest quality, Brazil is a distant second although usually pretty good, Mexico and Asia (Taiwan/China/India) are a far distant, and questionable, third.
Thanks for the info.
If I stick with a pre-1964, would those all be German manufactured? I actually would like to get as old of a pan as possible assuming it is in good shape.
Thoughts?
If I stick with a pre-1964, would those all be German manufactured? I actually would like to get as old of a pan as possible assuming it is in good shape.
Thoughts?
Patric,
Why?
As Gordon pointed out, a 1969+ pan has IRS and a ball-joint front end.
If you are performance-minded it is the way to go. You can switch out the 4-bolt wheel pattern to the early wide-five style if you're looking for a more authentic appearance.
Suggestion: drive an early pan and compare it to a newer. Although either one is primitive to today's standards the IRS pan is a huge improvement over the swing axle. And forget about the link-pin design. Unless you plan to only drive your car to the nearest car show or to drag race exclusively, or you want the driving experience closer to the original, I see no advantage to the older pan.
Why?
As Gordon pointed out, a 1969+ pan has IRS and a ball-joint front end.
If you are performance-minded it is the way to go. You can switch out the 4-bolt wheel pattern to the early wide-five style if you're looking for a more authentic appearance.
Suggestion: drive an early pan and compare it to a newer. Although either one is primitive to today's standards the IRS pan is a huge improvement over the swing axle. And forget about the link-pin design. Unless you plan to only drive your car to the nearest car show or to drag race exclusively, or you want the driving experience closer to the original, I see no advantage to the older pan.
I totally agree with Terry. Go for a pan between 1969 (first IRS) and mid-1971 (end of torsion bar front end).
If you really want the star-wheel heater control, simply graft an older one into the new pan - I've done it - it's not hard. All the star wheel does is pull a cylinder up a threaded shaft, thus, pulling the heater cables. BTW: If THAT was such a great design, VW might not have gone to the superior dual levers, post '64.
And for the life of me, other than a nostalgic "look", I can't understand why builders are still producing new, swing-arm cars.
If you really want the star-wheel heater control, simply graft an older one into the new pan - I've done it - it's not hard. All the star wheel does is pull a cylinder up a threaded shaft, thus, pulling the heater cables. BTW: If THAT was such a great design, VW might not have gone to the superior dual levers, post '64.
And for the life of me, other than a nostalgic "look", I can't understand why builders are still producing new, swing-arm cars.
Actually the Super Beetle with MacPherson strut front end was a separate model from the standard Beetle with torsion bars. They were sold in parallel for several years until the Rabbit was introduced in '75. At that point the Super Beetle sedan was discontinued although the Cabriolet still used that front end until it was discontinued in 1980 ('79?). The Beetle sedan lasted several years after the Rabbit came out, but was torsion bar only. It died in the late '70s.
Some even like the roller gas pedal in the older models - it too can be retrofited if desired. Brakes were big improvement in post '68 models too - more surface area and dual circuits.
Got no solid facts , but I'm thinking that the idea that early pans might be better than later pans came from rumors(?) that the earlier metal was thicker way back when. I've read that in HOT VW magazine. Even if that was true, those people are discounting the later advances in metalurgy and corrosion protection. I guess country of origin may influence steel quality also. Nuthin' is simple any more.
And if you are doing the pan yourself you can cut and drill the bottom cover off and even do the old style heater control. It also makes the throttle and clutch tube a lot easier to alter for the pan shorting.
i'd have to agree with everyone else and ask 'why?'
my old IM was built in '77-78 on a '63 pan....to you and me, that's a 31 year old body on a 46 year old pan...no problems with rust, flexing, cracking or the like...the car loves straight line 'drag strip' type acceleration and driving....but, on the mountain curves and twisties, the handling becomes somewhat 'adventuresome' at best...
hey, but i do have an old style heater control and a roller pedal!!
i'd trade them both in for a nice tube frame....
my old IM was built in '77-78 on a '63 pan....to you and me, that's a 31 year old body on a 46 year old pan...no problems with rust, flexing, cracking or the like...the car loves straight line 'drag strip' type acceleration and driving....but, on the mountain curves and twisties, the handling becomes somewhat 'adventuresome' at best...
hey, but i do have an old style heater control and a roller pedal!!
i'd trade them both in for a nice tube frame....
64 and older in CA can have the coveted black license plate.
-=theron
-=theron
mine is registered as a '63 and i have one....
Ya know?? after seeing what Cory did to the Hooptie. I'd consider doing a full race tube frame into a T-1 coupe but try to keep the interior area looking correct and convert the doors to gull wing style and the area below that becomes available real-estate for frame rails it wouldn't be to hard to do
Another advantage I just thought of:
If you get a later Karman Ghia pan you'll have VW disk brakes on the front end. I'm not sure when the conversion happened, but I think if you get a 1970 or later you'll be all set. I'm looking for one now.
Since the CB disk brake kit is the same as a Ghia, why not just start out with a Ghia? As far as I know, the beam is the same width as a sedan.
gn
If you get a later Karman Ghia pan you'll have VW disk brakes on the front end. I'm not sure when the conversion happened, but I think if you get a 1970 or later you'll be all set. I'm looking for one now.
Since the CB disk brake kit is the same as a Ghia, why not just start out with a Ghia? As far as I know, the beam is the same width as a sedan.
gn
That was offered in 1967. And I think, just for the one year ?
You gotta watch that one. They used a different wheel bearing in 67 and now the new aftermarket ones some use the 67 and some use 70 standard..
Just make sure the bearings fit tight on the spindles.
You gotta watch that one. They used a different wheel bearing in 67 and now the new aftermarket ones some use the 67 and some use 70 standard..
Just make sure the bearings fit tight on the spindles.
Gordon, I have the impression that Ghia pans are not the same as Beetle pans. They may not match up to a Speedster body.
for what it is worth:
I have been considering the project for the last four years and came very close to buying one from Alan ( Dr. Clock). I made a study and came to the conclusion that you need someone who IS a professional with these cars. I personally made a mistake by not purchasing the one Alan had 2 yrs ago. In the MAKER section you will find PROFESSIONALS at the art of the "356"
In my mind, if you really have the cash available you can buy a new Intermecannica or a Beck. If you want to get technical you can talk to Tom McBurnie at Thunder Ranch. The MAKER with the most accessibility and experiance with these cars is Kirk Duncan at Vintage Speedsters. Heck, if you buy an old CMC you will still end up to talking to Vintage. If you talk to Henry at Intermeccannica or Mr. Hines at Special Editions (Beck) or for that matter Kirk --YOU WILL BE TALKING TO "356" PROS!!!
When you own one
( A "356")......You will be a PRO-----------here endeth the lesson
Me , I am not a pro. I'm a stockbroker,
Kindest Regards-Cody
I have been considering the project for the last four years and came very close to buying one from Alan ( Dr. Clock). I made a study and came to the conclusion that you need someone who IS a professional with these cars. I personally made a mistake by not purchasing the one Alan had 2 yrs ago. In the MAKER section you will find PROFESSIONALS at the art of the "356"
In my mind, if you really have the cash available you can buy a new Intermecannica or a Beck. If you want to get technical you can talk to Tom McBurnie at Thunder Ranch. The MAKER with the most accessibility and experiance with these cars is Kirk Duncan at Vintage Speedsters. Heck, if you buy an old CMC you will still end up to talking to Vintage. If you talk to Henry at Intermeccannica or Mr. Hines at Special Editions (Beck) or for that matter Kirk --YOU WILL BE TALKING TO "356" PROS!!!
When you own one
( A "356")......You will be a PRO-----------here endeth the lesson
Me , I am not a pro. I'm a stockbroker,
Kindest Regards-Cody
Mike:
I'm not looking for a Ghia pan - just the front beam, and those are the same in the year range I'm interested in. All that's different on a late Ghia beam are the disk brakes and setting the steering box at the same angle as that used in a speedster, rather than at a steeper angle for the sedan.
Besides - it's fun wandering around junk yards - you see lots of stuff that can provide custom touches on whatever you're building. I just need to get more familiar with the yards and people down here, as many of the "better" ones don't show up in the "Yellow Pages" ;>)
gn
I'm not looking for a Ghia pan - just the front beam, and those are the same in the year range I'm interested in. All that's different on a late Ghia beam are the disk brakes and setting the steering box at the same angle as that used in a speedster, rather than at a steeper angle for the sedan.
Besides - it's fun wandering around junk yards - you see lots of stuff that can provide custom touches on whatever you're building. I just need to get more familiar with the yards and people down here, as many of the "better" ones don't show up in the "Yellow Pages" ;>)
gn
John Leader had a Ghia pan on his gray JPS speedster
The VW aftermarket floor pans list different # and costs for T1 vs Ghia pans. The Ghia replacement floor plan is $40 more and it says it fits the T3 too. I'd prefer the OEM Ghia spindles (vs welded aftermarket ones) and backing plates - but suspect 40 year calipers would have to be replaced with new ones.