Are We Most Unlucky or Are All "Replicas" This Bad?

There are some difference in tire clearance space in the bodies that are worse on the left driver side i believe ... not sure how much it is on each body or manufacturer of the mold.  Others will know more @Alan Merklin

@Cannuck Which manufacturer made the body you speak of?

There is no "standard of the industry". Some makers were way off symmetry, some are a lot closer. I would venture that ZERO manufacturers are precise replicas.

Even the much-vaunted 911 has a spec of +/- 1/4" for front fender height, meaning these could be 1/2" difference left to right.

I do know that some people have used longer studs and a wheel spacer on one side with no ill effect.

My Fiberfab Californian was off about 1/2" on the passenger side rear. I ran a spacer under that wheel and the car drove out great. I took several 400 plus mile interstate trips running 70-80 most of the time with zero issue. I was told the molds were off some. I have only heard good things about Intermeccanica cars. I didn't understand your post, did you have Intermeccanica build you a roller or did you buy an older car from an owner? The older IM cars were on a VW chassis (pan) and the later cars had their own custom-built frame and higher-grade suspension and brakes. All of the Porsche Speedster replicas are unique and not going to offer a new modern car experience. Anyone who is interested in buying one should by all means drive one first to find out if it is their cup of tea, so they say. Perfection isn't possible but can be strived for by all means. Pics of your car please.

New build roller, 911 front suspension, 944/Beetle rear.   Not my car, but best friend's - but we usually build all of our projects together.   Have been building cars, boat and planes for more than a half century and have as yet to see such poor quality in the body/chassis interface and much of the chassis hardware.   I can see that at some time in the process there was a lot of effort make to get mechanical details right, but suspect that since this was one of the last cars before the idiotic electric crap took over nobody's heart was in the build.   What I am curious about - and now have some suspicion is the case -  is that the 3/4" offcenter variance of body moulds is "normal".   Having built tooling many times for many things, THAT IMHO is inexcusable.   Using such a kludge as a wheel spacer is something I would never do or recommend anyone else should try.

I would think you would have a hard time to try to correct the body placement on the frame … just saying.   If it can be made to track straight then that would be my goal.  
Normally the rollers are test fitted with engine and transmission and they tell you what mounts are needed was that not the case ? If you have a 944 hub, you may only be able to put a 6 inch rim on the back I have 7 inch Fuchs, but I don’t have 944 hubs which protrude out of bit further.

Sorry to hear about the quality control issues , custom-made cars certainly do have some variability built into them or should I say Vintage elements of the individual craftsman doing the work.

Regarding the wheel spacing i would try the different width wheels and try to get a compromise that looks ok and leave it there.

Greens can make you a custom offset wheel in BC FYI.  They redid my Fuchs

All of us here north of the 49th hope Henry get’s back into building cars if Reisner’s Carozzeria is any hint that the project has started up then it will be good for us here.

@IaM-Ray posted:

Stan’s assessment is right on the money. All of us here north of the 49th hope Henry get’s back into building cars if Reisner’s Carozzeria is any hint that the project has started up then it will be good for us here.

I took it down, Ray, and PMed Cannuck privately.

I think everybody is hoping that Henry is getting back into the game in some shape or form. We'll see.

I'm truly amazed that an IM is that far off from true. Like others with CMCs - my rear left (Drivers) wheel has less space than the right side one - by near 1/2".  I stressed over mounting the body to the VW pan too.  Perhaps Henry knows a guy that could address those issues.  A jig is used to build the tube frame so would think it was precise.

The Spyders are the same way. They're not symmetrical. I'm sure the originals weren't either, being hand shaped aluminum. From what I understand, the car they flashed a mold off of for the Spyder had been wrecked and repaired, to live on for eternity. The shape of my right rear wheel arch is slightly pooched out and is a different shape than the left side, and my front right tire rubs the fender during spirited driving.

I can't see it while I'm brapping down the road, other than the rub, which I can't see but sometimes I can smell and feel. BUT, if ever I get my car repainted, I will have this corrected.

I'm surprised that during the years, these little nuances haven't been corrected. But I don't know diddly about what would be involved to correct them.

Maybe the Speedster was flashed from a damaged then repaired car???

I can see how this could drive some people crazy. I could be one of them, but there are other things keeping me awake at night, like how our septic leach field isn't draining properly lately and getting someone to come out and check it out nowadays is like pulling teeth on an angry hiippo.

Serenity now.

"The Spyders are the same way. They're not symmetrical. I'm sure the originals weren't either, being hand shaped aluminum. From what I understand, the car they flashed a mold off of for the Spyder had been wrecked and repaired, to live on for eternity."

What manufacturer is this? 

@Bob: IM S6 posted:

What manufacturer is this?

AFAIK, it was early CA and Brazilian Becks, so TRs as well. I think they fixed it when production moved to Bremen.

@Bob: IM S6 posted:

What manufacturer is this?

My Spyder is a Vintage built by Seduction.

I wonder if all the Spyder molds came from the same car???

The wider TR Spyder had flares made up front, but the rear fenders look like they were cut off of the clam shell and turned outward a bit to make more clearance. It's noticeable from a rear view. It looks weird to my eyes. Once you notice it, it can't be unnoticed.

I'm curious, if someone on here has a widened TR Spyder, take a shot of it from the rear. I gots to know.

It’s the LF that rubs on my first gen Beck. It’s visible in the frunk in how the gas tank mounts as well.

There is also big (40 year) difference between Automobili Intermeccanica and Intermeccanica International.     Which do you have?
-=theron

I have one of the very last roadsters to come out of the New Westminster factory. My car was fitted with original 16” Fuchs rear wheels that had been split and widened 1” to accommodate the 205x55x16 tires. There was a rubbing issue and I had 3.5mm removed from the inside flange on both rear wheels. 2600km later no rubbing over bumps, hard acceleration or heavy passenger. The difference side to side at the closest potential tire to body contact is 1.5mm

@Theron posted:

There is also big (40 year) difference between Automobili Intermeccanica and Intermeccanica International.     Which do you have?
-=theron

@Cannuck posted:

New build roller, 911 front suspension, 944/Beetle rear.   

@Cannuck posted:

this was one of the last cars before the idiotic electric crap took over

The timeline (from what I can piece together) is Cannuck's friend ordered pre-Covid (because he said it was a few years between order and delivery) and it was delivered as a roller within the last year of IM's production.

It's hard to put our heads around, because IM was always the gold standard, but this man is clearly not happy with the car he got. Henry spent a lot of time traveling for the 3-wheeled BEV Solo after the company was rolled into the Electra Meccanica corporation, but production of ICE 356 replicas continued for several more years before being shut down.

I'd say that's the starting point for the discussion.

A question for those who have gone before:   The shifter shipped with the car (ordered as using 901 gearbox) has the gate detent on the right side of the pattern, as does the "901" shifter we got separately.   901s are a 3 gate box with dogleg first underneath reverse, so from what I can remember there should be a spring detent for lever movement into R-1 gate (same gearbox we had in our '68 912).   When I look at the second shift mechanism, there are detent "grooves" cut into diagonally opposite ends of the shifter gating plates that would seem to lock in the lever at extreme opposites (I think 1 - 5) but prevent free movement into R and 4.  What gives??

I don't think many on here have a Porsche 901 gearbox.  I had one in my previous speedster, but I can't help with your question.  I just know mine worked well.

If no one here answers, I am sure there are lots of appropriate sites out there where you will find what you need for that question.

Best of luck.

@Cannuck- to answer your original question- it's my understanding that the original Porsche Speedster body that Frank Reisner pulled the first mold from had been hit and not repaired properly (although it must of looked good and they just didn't realize it at the time), hence the ½" difference in rear tire clearance from side to side.  AGAIN, it's my understanding that a lot of non IM replica Speedsters were splashed from an early IM body with this imperfection.  I don't know if IM fixed this at a later date, or if Special Edition Speedsters have this "feature" as well.  I haven't heard or read of anyone ever having a 1½" discrepancy- I'm not questioning or discounting what you're saying, only that everyone else has reported much closer to ½" difference.

There are ways to get more tire under the rear- earlier (shorter) swingaxles/tubes (1¾"? difference per side between '66 and earlier and '68 and newer assemblies), narrowing irs trailing arms, cutting apart/changing the offset of wheels to get the insides of wider wheels/tires closer to the spring plates and pie cutting the body on both sides to widen the rear (not noticeable and really doesn't change the look of the car).

IRS car, and will NOT be modifying suspension to accommodate total screw-up in tooling and construction.   Will have a set of wheels made, but there is a very limited selection of 15" tires and because of this ineptitude will not be able to use what was supposed to be able to fit the car.   When paying a hundred grand for a glorified kit car I expect near perfection.

Hi Cannuck,

What is the goal of your posting on this site?

Are you looking for help/advice/suggestions, or do you just want to vent?

The choice of suspension. And the hubs used are part of the choices of the build process that the owner of the car chose isn’t it?   He signed the build contract & the spec sheet ?   Yes?  

BTW 911 bolt pattern hubs and disks packages are available and 16 inch wheels and tires or even 17could fit if that is what you want on hind site.

Many original choices come back to haunt you if you realize you should of or could of done things differently that is why we are seemingly changing or upgrading a lot of things in our cars either because of a delusional plan in the first place or choices we made while being less than well informed for whatever reason you did not know what you did not know or needed to know In the custom build car market.

The list members often advise people looking to get into this hobby to buy used … drive a lot of them and go to Carlisle or other shows to see if this is within their wheel house.

Hard facts I know but this is why There are still many cars sold with only a few thousand miles or kilometres when the owner realizes the facts and the reasons stated.

Just saying

Just curious to see what the state of the art in QA/QC among other brands was - and how people have dealt with what was presented.   My personal choice is to design and build things myself and suffer the consequences of my choices and desires, but in this case I made the recommendation to a close friend to buy from what I had assumed was a reputable source and I would complete the power train and running gear based on assumption that things would be within reason straight, square and symmetrical.  We have done something similar when building a shoebox Chevy - i.e. bought components from highly visible US sources such as frame, suspension, etc. and the quality was fantastic.  In this case, needed a minimum amount of time lost to bodywork and no need to be an actual resto (as to be "resto-rod like").  From what I am seeing here, the customer base for Speedster replicas seems to be well practiced at excusing such ineptitude that must be industry wide.   

From over a half century as a repairman, restorer, designer, builder and manufacturer in industrial, automotive, marine and aviation 1 1/2" deviation over a 60" or so distance is NOT "normal" nor "acceptable" to anyone, nor should it be.  Even an average skill carpenter can keep an entire house to far closer tolerances than that.

I am sorry to hear of your concerns.  Having owned three Intermeccanicas - one Roadster, one Speedster, and my current IM6 - I haven't noticed any severe issues with fitment.  Yes, there is a slight difference between right and left clearances, but I have found that only becomes noticeable if you are going for wider wheels and tires.  I have no idea why your build exhibits clearances such as you report.

The quality on my IM6 is excellent.  However, when I had a set of special wheels made, I did have to account for the slight body left and right differences.

As ALB reported above, it seems the original mold for many of the manufacturers may have come from a damaged but repaired speedster.  We also need to keep in mine that manufacturing tolerances in the 1950s were in no way comparable to today, so who knows how many original, basically hand made, speedsters have these differences.  I assume that if you were to find an original speedster and do a series of precise measurements, you would find they are not 'on the square'.

I've got a lot of money in my car - way too much, even in the current market. This is because I wanted to do (and then redo over and over) some pretty expensive parts - the engine, transaxle, etc. I enjoyed it because it was (and is) a hobby. Hobbies are expenses and not investments. My car works pretty well - but it still has a beam, and as such is still a log-wagon.

I bought and am remodeling a 150 year old house across the street from my place. It isn't historically significant, isn't architecturally important, and doesn't have "good bones". It's a house a farmer built in his spare time with the materials he had on hand in a time when wood was cheap and nails were not. I've got a lot of money in that house - way too much, even in the current market. I'm doing it because I want to (or did when I started. Now? Not so much). It's still got a brick foundation, so no matter how careful I am or how much money gets sprayed on it, it's still lipstick on a pig.

In my time here, I've watched this hobby morph from frugal guys with low investments having fun with glorified dune buggies and into a lot of 6-figure cars bought and built as "near-classics" or investments. Intermeccanica was the forerunner of the trend - 25 years ago, Henry was building automobiles when Kirk and Mary, et al were building inexpensive and fun cars. Everybody brought their game up. The cars coming out of Breman are staggeringly impressive. Prices have risen with the quality, many times the rate of general inflation.

BaT has propelled the valuations into the stratosphere. IMHO, this has not always been a good thing for our psyche and perspective.

... because I've come to realize (way too late, unfortunately) that a plastic Easter Egg from WalMart is probably more useful and less freighted up with anxiety than a legit Faberge Egg in all it's perfect glory. We talk about the advantages of replicas (don't rust, better performance, modern running gear, etc.), but those advantages start to disappear as the cars approach and cross into 6-figures. Spinneybeck leather isn't as durable or rain resistant as cordura. German square-weave doesn't wear like indoor/outdoor carpet from Home Depot.

Expectations rise. We start to feel like, "for a hundred thousand dollars, this thing should be perfect!" That's reasonable and unreasonable at the same time. It's reasonable to expect that. Was it ever reasonable to spend it?

I've got no idea if I'm ever going to retire (this house rehab habit is killing those plans), but if I do - I'd like to go build a car and go in the opposite direction, into the extreme of simplicity. No top. No carpet. Vinyl seats. Non-metallic paint, maybe primer, maybe even truck-bed liner. Big engine, great brakes, the biggest wheels I can stuff under it. One big AutoMeter tach right in front of my face and a bicycle computer on a stalk to tell me how fast I'm going.

KISS.

Letting the air out of the balloon seems like it would be more fun than inflating the thing to the moon and hoping I float off to Paradise Falls. I always have that tendency, and it doesn't make anything more enjoyable.

I feel like we could all use a bit more "fun" in our approach.

"From what I am seeing here, the customer base for Speedster replicas seems to be well practiced at excusing such ineptitude that must be industry wide.   "

Wow really?  Now the fault lies with the members of the list for not insisting the product offerings of independant builders is of better quality? ... for your choice (s) ?  for your research?

Caveat Emptor  

I hadn't read Stan's post before I wrote this.  I do think everyone after they build an IM especially has pause on their decision maybe even buyers remorse for some of their choices or the facts of life in the 356 hobby space. It still brings it back to caveat emptor for our own lack of research.  

Next year my car will be 10 years old I still like my IM. I am not yet ready to sell it even if I thought about it a few times but after I got is sorted out and did a lot of mods to it which took me a couple of years, it is a nice ride built with Henry's full supervision.

In any case....

__________________  _______  ________________________________________-

I think @Jim Kelly 's comment begs to be made again.

"What is the goal of your posting on this site?

Are you looking for help/advice/suggestions, or do you just want to vent?"

@Carlos G posted:

My Spyder is a Vintage built by Seduction.

I wonder if all the Spyder molds came from the same car???

The wider TR Spyder had flares made up front, but the rear fenders look like they were cut off of the clam shell and turned outward a bit to make more clearance. It's noticeable from a rear view. It looks weird to my eyes. Once you notice it, it can't be unnoticed.

I'm curious, if someone on here has a widened TR Spyder, take a shot of it from the rear. I gots to know.

Chuck made the first spyder body that is seen in 95% of replicas today, and the changes to length/width were made by him.  Every replica "down the line" that you see with these same dimensions is a copy of a copy, and in many cases a copy of a copy of a copy...  Very few replicas (CMI and a few that copied them) were left with the original dimensions.  This is because the original dimensions just don't work well for a wide variety of reasons (size, parts limitations, etc)

Anyway, Vintage Spyders was one of the first, if not the first, to splash the Beck body.  Over the years they have made their own changes "here and there", and even our own molds have been improved/changed slightly 3x over 40 years.  As for TR, Chuck (Beck) sold Tom McBernie from TR) the old CA Gen 1 molds around '94 so the early TR spyders were a Gen 1 Beck derived body/chassis also, but then TR made their own changes, added a wide body, etc...

@Cannuck Most, if not all, of the speedster bodies have similar idiosyncrasies, the most notable in the right rear wheel well.  However this is a  function of body shape and should not be reflected in the chassis/pan. Plus, we're talking about 3/8" difference in the body, which isn't even noticeable to most with skinny tires and doesn't show itself until yogurt wider tires closer to the body.

I am not familiar enough in the assembly of the pan based, or IM's method of body mounting, to know if that can be exaggerated by mounting the body crooked.  We (Beck) have a fixture to locate the chassis in the body for and aft, as well as set the angle of the chassis in the body.  The the mold itself is precision fit to the chassis so it can't move left or right.  I would assume Henry (IM) does as well but couldn't say for sure.

As for what you're dealing with, there are several things to consider:

There is a big difference between a crooked chassis and a body being mounted on the chassis, crooked.  While I'd agree that neither is acceptable, fixing one is a lot easier than the other.  

Also, make sure you've taken ALL parts into consideration, remembering that may thing are 50 years old.  (i.e. we used to get trailing arm "cores" and control arm cores that were bent/tweaked, so make sure to eliminate that as a possibility).  

The big thing I would be checking is my suspension pick up points and mounts.  This dictates your chassis and suspension being square, which is most important here.  Something like a frame/rail or body support rail coming off the chassis that is aft of the rear torsion housing would have no effect on suspension geometry so it's less critical, other than cosmetics.

If you are truly looking for help/advise there are several of us on here that know enough about the manufacturing assembly process to help, but the fist step would be to take the body out of the measurement equations for a moment and measure the chassis as a separate piece.  They are in fact 2 separate pieces manufactured individually and then mated, so it would be prudent to see exactly where the errors are, or if they are in both.

Let's be real, 100K cars are not a hobby, any more than collecting Rolex's are ....

@WNGD posted:

Let's be real, 100K cars are not a hobby, any more than collecting Rolex's are ....

My point exactly.

Not being argumentative, but I am a little confused by the 1 1/2" difference that you are mentioning.  Can you show a couple of pictures where you are measuring and maybe we can help with suggestions on a solution?  @Cannuck

@Stan Galat posted:

... I've got no idea if I'm ever going to retire (this house rehab hobby is killing those plans), but if I do - I'd like to go build a car and go in the opposite direction, into the extreme of simplicity. No top. No carpet. Vinyl seats. Non-metallic paint, maybe primer, maybe even truck-bed liner. Big engine, great brakes, the biggest wheels I can stuff under it. One big AutoMeter tach right in front of my face and a bicycle computer on a stalk to tell me how fast I'm going.

KISS.

I've already found your dream car Stan- it has 911 front suspension, no top, it's light and has big tires...

PS- and for those of us music fans old enough to remember, another laugh-

To your point @chines1.  IM has a body jig that they put the body in and then attach the frame to the body using aircraft quality rivets then I know they fibreglass some parts in or to the body to fuse them together it is not a pan to body attachment as you know.  I also know there are some tire issues on one side …. left I think but I never actually checked exactly how much was the difference in my car.  
I would expect the frame to be accurate as the jig they use to build it is heavy duty IMO but a hand built car always has nuances and finishing nuances as well depending on the day it was built I guess Wednesday was a good day in Detroit to buy a car .

@ALB posted:

I've already found your dream car Stan- it has 911 front suspension, no top, it's light and has big tires...

That thing got a hemi?

@Jim Kelly posted:

Hi Cannuck,

What is the goal of your posting on this site?

Are you looking for help/advice/suggestions, or do you just want to vent?

I'm actually starting to think the purpose was to let us know who we are for enjoying these contraptions.

@Cannuck posted:

From what I am seeing here, the customer base for Speedster replicas seems to be well practiced at excusing such ineptitude that must be industry wide.   

You know, until Ray quoted this, I had missed this whole thing.

But now that I reread the entire post, I find what a bunch of half-a**ed hacks we are, and shills for the Speedster Cabal.

Clearly, nobody here has repaired or built anything other than a birdhouse at Camp We-Ma-Tuk Summer Daycare back in the '60s. I'm personally looking forward to more information regarding how stupid and backward we are. It makes the world a better place to know how "special" I am.

I need to go back to work. Those crayons aren't going to eat themselves.

"Those crayons aren't going to eat themselves" - the first chuckle of the day.

We do understand that many people are disappointed after they get their new car built because of unrealistic, expectation, or miss information but as a general rule, it is just a lack of experience with these kinds of cars.  
these cars fall in the realm of illusion and delusion. You have an illusion of the perfect car, which is truly delusional and you don’t know it we’re all subject to that. You only realize it as time goes on.

The builder has his own issues trying to meet reasonable expectations which in and of itself is a moving target due to the illusion by the buyer that he is getting a 2023 technology car when in reality, he has a complete mixture of near 70 years of technology in a car.  While this does not excuse the builder for errors, it makes a reasonable point and the onus is still on the buyer to be informed of the market and the level of build possible given all those factors.  
I continue to be amazed at how many times we have had people come on the list in the 10 years or so that I’ve been here that have the same situation as our Canuck new guy.

Some come to disparage the builder some come to sell their pride and joy in the first 3000 km and some stay because they appreciate the visceral experience of the cars and do not want American muscle cars.

All in all every life experience cost some form of financial or time contribution which is money anyway and that is the learning curve of life whether one likes it or not but if you walk into it and you agree to it then ultimately it’s on you.

@Stan Galat posted:

I've got a lot of money in my car - way too much, even in the current market. This is because I wanted to do (and then redo over and over) some pretty expensive parts - the engine, transaxle, etc. I enjoyed it because it was (and is) a hobby. Hobbies are expenses and not investments. My car works pretty well - but it still has a beam, and as such is still a log-wagon.

I bought and am remodeling a 150 year old house across the street from my place. It isn't historically significant, isn't architecturally important, and doesn't have "good bones". It's a house a farmer built in his spare time with the materials he had on hand in a time when wood was cheap and nails were not. I've got a lot of money in that house - way too much, even in the current market. I'm doing it because I want to (or did when I started. Now? Not so much). It's still got a brick foundation, so no matter how careful I am or how much money gets sprayed on it, it's still lipstick on a pig.

In my time here, I've watched this hobby morph from frugal guys with low investments having fun with glorified dune buggies and into a lot of 6-figure cars bought and built as "near-classics" or investments. Intermeccanica was the forerunner of the trend - 25 years ago, Henry was building automobiles when Kirk and Mary, et al were building inexpensive and fun cars. Everybody brought their game up. The cars coming out of Breman are staggeringly impressive. Prices have risen with the quality, many times the rate of general inflation.

BaT has propelled the valuations into the stratosphere. IMHO, this has not always been a good thing for our psyche and perspective.

... because I've come to realize (way too late, unfortunately) that a plastic Easter Egg from WalMart is probably more useful and less freighted up with anxiety than a legit Faberge Egg in all it's perfect glory. We talk about the advantages of replicas (don't rust, better performance, modern running gear, etc.), but those advantages start to disappear as the cars approach and cross into 6-figures. Spinneybeck leather isn't as durable or rain resistant as cordura. German square-weave doesn't wear like indoor/outdoor carpet from Home Depot.

Expectations rise. We start to feel like, "for a hundred thousand dollars, this thing should be perfect!" That's reasonable and unreasonable at the same time. It's reasonable to expect that. Was it ever reasonable to spend it?

I've got no idea if I'm ever going to retire (this house rehab hobby is killing those plans), but if I do - I'd like to go build a car and go in the opposite direction, into the extreme of simplicity. No top. No carpet. Vinyl seats. Non-metallic paint, maybe primer, maybe even truck-bed liner. Big engine, great brakes, the biggest wheels I can stuff under it. One big AutoMeter tach right in front of my face and a bicycle computer on a stalk to tell me how fast I'm going.

KISS.

Letting the air out of the balloon seems like it would be more fun than inflating the thing to the moon and hoping I float off to Paradise Falls. I always have that tendency, and it doesn't make anything more fun.

I feel like we could all use a bit more "fun" in our approach.

Once again, I find myself in complete agreement with the quoted response.  

The only thing I may add, is that even though these are "new" cars, they are not mass manufactured cars that have spent years and millions (or billions) of dollars in R&D and testing.  They are still hand built and naturally inherit the idiosyncrasies of the process.

However, I don't think this issue is simply a replica issue........as I know people that have spent 3-5 times more on their new Ferraris, Lambos, Bentleys etc, and still have had issues since taking delivery of their cars.  

The good news is you stumbled across this forum.  There is A LOT of brain power in this group that can assist.  Where else would you find an automobile manufacturer willing to problem solve on a case by case issue, as is often the situation with Carey?

10 likes

From reading through all the posts again, I’d take a WAG that this was the proverbial “Friday after lunch” car as Ray suggested. Things happen. Maybe a bent rear suspension bit slipped through QA. Carey is spot on, check the chassis dimensions first. Much more likely the problem is there vs a body that came out of the same mold 100s of perfectly fine bodies did.

Things happen. CB sells 1,000s of disc brake kits. Maybe tens of… Somehow I got one that was machined .05” off center.