Axle hop on Beck Spyder with Subaru 2.2l

@chines1 Does this issue sound like anything you've dealt with?

I wonder if it is clutch chatter?  Do you know who did the build @Matt McNeil ?

We've never done a factory 2.2L  Only 2.5L

Luke Richards (Lucra Cars) in Los Angeles built it in 2006. Thanks!

Gotcha.  Yes we sent him kits and he did all of his own mechanicals and options.

I guess I'd double check engine mounts and transaxle nosecone mount to make sure nothing is broken, especially is he used stock rubber or red urethane at the nosecone.

Other than that I'd be looking at clutch movement, assuming it is cable, and then pressure plate/clutch itself.

THANKS! I'll look at those areas first!

Matt

I'll second the motor mount suggestions, having experienced it on both my Speedster (failed nosecone mount) and the Coupe (loose bolt on one mount).  Feels like the car is shaking itself apart, but the fix is usually pretty easy.

The motor mounts look to be black rubber.

For a moment, let's assume I'm an idiot ... what's the best way to check the mounts themselves? Some wiggle? No wiggle? Pick up on the nosecone? Is it going to be side-to-side motion? Up and down? All of the above? Would it be obvious? TIA!

Matt

Get a floor jack under the trans by the drain plug. Jack it up while observing all three mounts.

Sometimes the nose cone itself breaks right by the nose cone mount.

First, I have never seen pronounced axle hop in a Speedster or Spyder.  That includes a small handful of cars with 200+ hp, too.  That said, I’m with Carey and would look at the clutch or clutch linkage (mostly suspect the Bowden tube being out of whack, but if it has a Kennedy clutch then a chattering clutch is pretty common and hard to tell from axle hop unless you see it from the side during launch or know what to feel in your butt).

What's the best way to check the mounts themselves?

Get it up on jackstands or a lift, place a long ( 3’ or more) pry bar between the frame horns and the transaxle case and try to make the front of the transaxle move up and down.  If it moves more than 3/16” I would start looking for a new Rhino transaxle front mount.  At the rear where the transaxle is bolted to the frame horns, again, between the frame horns and transaxle case but close to the mounting bolts.  Come in from the side with an 18” pry bar and see if the transaxle rubber mounts allow more than 3/16” movement up and down.  If so, replace those when you do the front mount - Get Rhino mounts for the rear, too.

Some wiggle? No wiggle? Pick up on the nosecone?

Very little wiggle, all up and down.  As power is applied to the transaxle, it will try to lift the nosecone up at the front.  Gene Berg (and Aircooled.net) sells a transaxle mid-mount that prevents excessive lifting of the nosecone under severe power.  Since you have a Suby engine, the power might be enough to need a transaxle mid-mount to eliminate excessive nosecone lift.

Is it going to be side-to-side motion?    No

Up and down?  YES

Would it be obvious?  Yes

Again, I would first suspect the Bowden Tube, it’s bend angle or the clutch itself, first, and then start looking at transaxle mounts.

The stock rubber mount like you describe is rubber vulcanized to metal and is known to separate the 2 materials which will allow the trans to move.  What Danny described is exactly what I'd do.

Gordon has some great info also.  One thing to add though, in a Spyder IF you have the old stock clutch cable tube, the metal tube itself acts as your Bowden tube, so you'll have no additional Bowden tube.

Eventually I'd swap the nose mount to a CB Rhino mount.  I have no idea what you'll have for transaxle lower mounts.  I would have shipped them the stock aircooled Beck mounts, which are different from VW and MUCH sturdier.  I've put several hundred HP with track use through the stock bell housing mounts and they hold up.  They do have a rubber insert, which I stock, and in theory it could deteriorate, but I haven't seen it much.  In fact I probably sell a single replacement lower bell housing mount set once every 4 years!  Factory built Subaru Spyders don't use these mounts and the crossbar is different and designed to accept stock Subaru engine mounts, but I never sent these parts to Luke so just not sure what he did there...

Gordon, it's not a Speedster. Most likely it has a hydraulic clutch slave, or possibly a pulley to reverse the pull.

It's a 2.2 Suby, which is 130hp unless it's been worked, which it probably hasn't.

I'd really like to see pictures of the mounts as they're most probably NOT the same as an aircooled car. Spyders usually don't do mid-mounts, the exhaust gets in the way. I could be wrong on this, but I doubt it.

Here are a few pics...

Ok, so that's the nosecone mount on the transmission.

What about the other two?

Motor mounts!

Thanks, Matt.

I'd refer to Carey on this one, he has the experience. I have Spyder experience, but not with the Suby engine mounts. I do know they sell Motorsport(stiffer rubber) mounts for rally cars though.

The other thing is a Spyder really ISN'T a drag car. I'm thinking something might be broken in your setup. Did you try jacking up the car from the transmission like I said? A broken mount would be apparent then.

The only thing I do know is in a Subaru, there are 2 motor mounts, 2 trans mounts, and a dogbone on top of the trans to the frame.

Can I suggest removing the clamshell and taking video of the engine/trans during a launch? That might help you figure it out.

Yes those look to be stock Subaru mounts.  I am not 100% on crossover between 2.2 and 2.5 parts, but a lot of the 2.5 parts san a decade and are interchangeable.  In addition, there are certain year parts to avoid, even if they are interchangeable.  For example, in 2006 Subaru decided that a liquid filled engine mount would make the car quieter.  What actually happens is they pop, collapse, and don't work.

I would not suggest rigid mounts like the rally cars use, but you can find what they call Group N mounts which are harder OEM mounts for their factory built rally cars.

I would also check the welds and support of those Subaru mounts.  They look to be on some pretty long arms and there is a lot of leverage there.  Again, just like Danny suggested on the trans mounts, put some load ont hem with a jack and looks for cracks or movement.

What Carey said. I wouldn't use solid mounts either.

Finally got around to fixing the issue. It was the clutch. We thought it might have been a racing clutch without springs as the previous owner said the car had the issue since he had the car built and he had just learned to "drive around it." LOL.  Once we got into it, we saw that the clutch was not a race clutch but the springs on the clutch were very loose. The new clutch and pressure plate from fibersteel did the trick. Now it's time to see if I can get this car registered in CA... lol.

FYI I use a solid center clutch disc on all the aircooled cars I work on. Clutch takeup and launch has never been a problem , and you never have to worry about broken springs on the clutch disc.

chines1, you mention above that the metal tube acts as the bowden tube. Since that's the case, how tight should the cable be? Same tightening process as a volkswagon?1/2" to 3/4" of play before engaging? Thanks!

@Matt McNeil posted:

Motor mounts!

I see 2 different mounts- could 1 be softer than the other?

i had the actual clutch arm bend over time and finally fail where the cable connects

@chines1 posted:

Yes those look to be stock Subaru mounts.  I am not 100% on crossover between 2.2 and 2.5 parts, but a lot of the 2.5 parts san a decade and are interchangeable.  In addition, there are certain year parts to avoid, even if they are interchangeable.  For example, in 2006 Subaru decided that a liquid filled engine mount would make the car quieter.  What actually happens is they pop, collapse, and don't work.

I would not suggest rigid mounts like the rally cars use, but you can find what they call Group N mounts which are harder OEM mounts for their factory built rally cars.

I would also check the welds and support of those Subaru mounts.  They look to be on some pretty long arms and there is a lot of leverage there.  Again, just like Danny suggested on the trans mounts, put some load ont hem with a jack and looks for cracks or movement.

Do tell what kind of motor mounts are you using for the Subie engine install?

I believe Matt solved his clutch problem by replacing it.

@Matt McNeil I think I see the bellcrank for the clutch operation in one of your pics. Do I? Clutch cable straight under the trans, then bellcrank, then clutch arm? If so, adjust for 1/2" or 3/4" at the pedal, yes. Early Becks had a pulley to change cable direction. Then they switched to a bellcrank. I believe they are hydraulic master/slave now.

@barncobob Did the throwout arm welds break on the clutch cross-shaft? That is the usual failure mode.

@Danny P, thanks. The clutch swap has solved almost of it. I'm hoping to get rid of all of it by adjusting the cable.

@Matt McNeil posted:

chines1, you mention above that the metal tube acts as the bowden tube. Since that's the case, how tight should the cable be? Same tightening process as a volkswagon?1/2" to 3/4" of play before engaging? Thanks!

f measured at the pedal, yes.  And you can adjust it tighter if needed, but check it at the clutch release area and just make sure that your throw out bearing is not riding the pressure plate at rest.

Also, when changing broken clutch cables I generally see the broken ones DRY.  Grease the hell out of them.  We used to use a long needle and pump the clutch tube as full as we could, plus when installing I'd run the cable through grease as it went in.

@IaM-Ray posted:

Do tell what kind of motor mounts are you using for the Subie engine install?

varies with application.  usually stock '07 are fine, avoid '06, Group N when I need it stiffer but not solid, solid on the race cars.

@chines1 Thanks again for your expertise! I'm assuming this cable is DRY. Any grease of choice? Would something like Tri-Flo Lubricant be a bad idea?

Also, this car was built in '06. I'll bet money the motor mounts are '06 as well.

Finally, when I tried to adjust the cable last night, I'm having no luck adjusting the play in the pedal. It just flops forward about 2"-3" and then back into place where the resistance starts.  No matter how loose or tight I make the cable, the flop seems to be a constant. I can affect how high or low the clutch engages in regard to the floorboard, however.

I'll lube the cable and see what happens but - in general- should the cable have any wiggle/slack or should it be like a guitar string?

Thanks!

Matt

we just use standard axle/bearing grease.  Tri=flow would be better than nothing, but I like to immerse it in thick nasty grease.

Sound like your clutch cable has come off the hook at the pedal.

It won't be guitar string tight, you'll have a little play in it, but the return spring on  the clutch arm of the trans will be loaded and it is a pretty stout spring, so that holds tension in it.

<THREAD DRIFT>

I thin we need to work up some jokes about Carey's fondness for "thick nasty grease."

<END THREAD DRIFT>

chines1, is there a good way to get to the hook on the clutch lever? My car is pretty sealed up underneath. I can't get to the tunnel even though the front access panel. Is the tiny hole up top the only option? Further, wouldn't the cable not work at all if the hook had come loose? In my case, the clutch works and the tighter I make the cable, the less chatter I get- but I'm afraid of over-tightening it. It's pretty tight - ie: no real wiggle or slack. The moment I give it some slack, the hop comes back. TIA.

Matt

No, if the cable came off the hook completely then you'd have zero cable movement, so thats not the issue.  Just a side note in case you ever do have to look at that connection, the only way to access it in a spyder is where the clutch arm passes through the center tunnel side and you do so by unbolting the 2x 10mm bolts that hold the pedals to the center tunnel.

Depending on what pressure plate was used on your build, you may have too much force on the angled bell crank bracket.  I'd look for signs of bending on it.  Likewise I'd look at where the clutch tube is attached to the chassis and make sure the weld there dignity break loose and the clutch tube is flexing, which would eat up some travel, and/or make sure that someone didn't straighten it out when rerouting it around the Subaru oil pan.

Feel free to e-mail me some photos of this area and I'll take a look at what was done when it was converted to Subaru.  Maybe something will jump out at me...

@chines1 posted:

No, if the cable came off the hook completely then you'd have zero cable movement, so thats not the issue.  Just a side note in case you ever do have to look at that connection, the only way to access it in a spyder is where the clutch arm passes through the center tunnel side and you do so by unbolting the 2x 10mm bolts that hold the pedals to the center tunnel.

Depending on what pressure plate was used on your build, you may have too much force on the angled bell crank bracket.  I'd look for signs of bending on it.  Likewise I'd look at where the clutch tube is attached to the chassis and make sure the weld there dignity break loose and the clutch tube is flexing, which would eat up some travel, and/or make sure that someone didn't straighten it out when rerouting it around the Subaru oil pan.

Feel free to e-mail me some photos of this area and I'll take a look at what was done when it was converted to Subaru.  Maybe something will jump out at me...

I figured a video would be worth a 1,000 pics. Let me know what you think and if I can shoot anything else! I REALLY appreciate your help with this!  Hopefully, they will allow this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D_88Mp4GNk

cable seems tight, almost too tight, but you really need to see what deflection you have at the clutch arm.  follow the round road from he bell crank towards the motor and find the clutch arm at the end.  pull on it and see if it moves.  you should have 1/8" freeplay there and you should be able to feel the throw out hit the pressure plate.  

your freeplay at the pedal is a bit puzzling and doesn't match the tightness of your cable.  the hook end is just held to the rod by a few tack welds (factory VW clutch rod) and Ive seen them crack/break.  There is also a pin holding the clutch pedal to the shaft and that hole can get "wallered" out...

did you happen to check your pressure plate when you did your clutch change?  especially if it is a Kennedy (KEP) they are notorious from fatigue on the rivets and they become less efficient requiring more throw to work... and then failing.  The stock Sachs HD pressure plate is much better, but a lot of guys use KEP because it came in some sort of "conversion kit" with the flywheel (their flywheel is nice however).

There is a company that makes strengthened and modified pedal assemblies. They look to be VERY well made. Look up "Big boy pedals VW" if you have big feet.

For regular size feet they sell a modified clutch shaft that eliminates the hook up-front:

https://www.classicbugparts.co...pedal-shaft-upgrade/

Carey touched on all the failure points. I will add that the OLD Kennedy clutches were great but I think Carey has seen failures of late. I now have a Sachs HD clutch, very very light pedal, great feel and no slipping with 180 hp. What's not to like?

@chines1 posted:

cable seems tight, almost too tight, but you really need to see what deflection you have at the clutch arm.  follow the round road from he bell crank towards the motor and find the clutch arm at the end.  pull on it and see if it moves.  you should have 1/8" freeplay there and you should be able to feel the throw out hit the pressure plate.  

your freeplay at the pedal is a bit puzzling and doesn't match the tightness of your cable.  the hook end is just held to the rod by a few tack welds (factory VW clutch rod) and Ive seen them crack/break.  There is also a pin holding the clutch pedal to the shaft and that hole can get "wallered" out...

did you happen to check your pressure plate when you did your clutch change?  especially if it is a Kennedy (KEP) they are notorious from fatigue on the rivets and they become less efficient requiring more throw to work... and then failing.  The stock Sachs HD pressure plate is much better, but a lot of guys use KEP because it came in some sort of "conversion kit" with the flywheel (their flywheel is nice however).

I'll check it out at the clutch arm. My buddy mentioned the lack of a return spring on the arm in the video. I'll take a look when I get home but if that's necessary and missing, could that be a culprit? I assume that since everything is upside down, a modified spring would be needed?

@DannyP posted:

There is a company that makes strengthened and modified pedal assemblies. They look to be VERY well made. Look up "Big boy pedals VW" if you have big feet.

For regular size feet they sell a modified clutch shaft that eliminates the hook up-front:

https://www.classicbugparts.co...pedal-shaft-upgrade/

Carey touched on all the failure points. I will add that the OLD Kennedy clutches were great but I think Carey has seen failures of late. I now have a Sachs HD clutch, very very light pedal, great feel and no slipping with 180 hp. What's not to like?

I remember this product from when I had my Tow'd. I'll check it out again. Thanks for the link!

Not really. There should be a heavy coil spring around the clutch arm coming out of the top of the transmission. It should pull the whole linkage and cable arrangement all the way back.

@Matt McNeil posted:

I remember this product from when I had my Tow'd. I'll check it out again. Thanks for the link!

I've got one of the "Big Boy" pedal assemblies. It's well designed, heavy duty and gives those of us with Flintstone feet more room. Thumbs up from me.