Battery discharge and ground issue

@IaM-Ray Sounds like it may be a alternator  Issue.

I have had cars over the years that exhibit the same problem you are describing. I have always been told the draining battery issue was not a ground problem because this would not drain the battery. I was told if your battery is being drained when the car is in the off position you have a hot wire (12V) going to ground in some manner. This can be hard to track this down. I have installed battery disconnect switches on all of my cars that would drain down while sitting. You can buy one at any auto parts store that replaces the positive battery terminal and has a  knob on top that when turned disconnects the battery from the cars electrical system. You can also buy battery disconnect switches that are required on any car raced on a track. This will work as well. A good auto electric technician can track down the short, we used to have a guy that had a shop specializing in auto electric problems but he got old and shut it down. The dragging starter may be an issue of the low system voltage form the drain but also can be a bad starter or loose connection someplace at the positive post of the starter or a loose ground. My Magnum had a not starting issue at Carlisle a few weeks ago and we thought it was a loose connection and once I tightened everything the car went back to starting again. When the issue returned a few days later I started thinking if anything was changed on the car prior to going to Carlisle and remembered that I had removed the exhaust resonator a few days prior to Carlisle because I wanted a little louder exhaust note. The resonator was positioned directly under the starter and Rotary engines put out tons of super hot exhaust. I believe the straight pipe that replaced the resonator puts out more heat which in turn ruined my starter. I replaced the starter and covered the exhaust pipe with header heat tape the lowers the amount of heat being put out that could harm the started. Problem fixed. I have to remember, 1-starters do not like heat, 2- when a starter stops working or is turning slow when you know you have full charge it usually is a bad starter issue. So, you may want to consider that you have 2 issues rather than 1. Good luck, let us know how it goes.

To eliminate the alternator as a potential problem, put a voltmeter on it to see at what level voltage it is charging.  You can do this either at the battery terminals (if they're accessible) or even from a 12 volt "power port" somewhere on the car, like where you plug in your phone charger or GPS.  You'll need a multi-meter set to DC Volts to measure this (they also sell little testers to plug into a power port with a digital readout but I have no direct experience with them.  I use a 45 year old Simpson Multi-Meter).  

Once you find a 12volt test point, the charging voltage at 1,500 - 2,000 RPM should read somewhere between 13.5 and 14.9 volts or thereabouts.   If it's reading below 13.5 at this time of year then the alternator isn't charging enough and needs to be replaced.

Like Jimmy, I would't go looking for a bad ground right off.  That may be in your future, but you have other things to eliminate, first.

If the alternator is putting out enough juice, then the next place to look is where your voltage is going when the car engine is stopped.  For that you need a mechanics test ammeter.  This is an ammeter that usually tests 0 - 20amps on one scale, and 20 - 60 amps on another scale.  You want the 0 - 20 scale (or 0 - 10 amps, if you're lucky).  The meter test probes are inserted in place of a fuse to see what's draining voltage from the system - i.e., pull a fuse and clip one meter probe to each side of where the fuse plugs in.  You go from fuse to fuse until you find the one that's draining when everything is off (on my car, that's the radio).  It should show way less than an amp.  The ammeter may have another scale for under 5 amps (or even milli-amps) which you switch to when you find a drain to get a better idea of how much it's draining.  50-100 Milli-amps to keep a radio alive is plenty.  Anything more than that on any fuse shows your culprit.  Then, you'll have to trace the wires on that circuit to find where the voltage is going and correct it.

Any competent auto electric shop should be able to check this out in 30 minutes or so, and correct what's draining in another 30 minutes.  They should also be able to identify whether you have a starter/battery ground issue by watching the cranking amps of the battery as the starter is operating.  

Good Hunting.

Thanks for this I will keep you guys posted when I find the issue.

Ray, this could also be battery cables, maybe a bad connection point, or even the battery.

How old is the battery, where is it located, and how long are the cables to the starter?

One question I believe I know the answer to @IaM-Ray - does the car have power locks?

My car does, and there is an alarm module (which is always powered) that only uses the locking feature. I'd start there.

It has been happening since I got the car.   I found the door switch light was a culprit not closing completely at one point.  Fixed that.   Now down the rabbit hole again. One thing is that IM had installed a battery conditioner, under the rear seat with a custom plug in under the engine but that never worked and to me that gave me the idea that the ground was an issue from that point on.  As when I removed the battery tender and now plug it in manually the tender works.

Yes door locks

From my experience, finding a parasitic battery drain on our replicas is much different than a modern car with a wiring schematic.  The process is doable, but takes lots of time, as each circuit must be tested, then each draw on each circuit.  Subsequent owners or shops may have added circuits or changed the wiring for a specific purpose, which may not be obvious until hidden wiring is exposed.  There are many youtube videos on how to find and eliminate a parasitic drain.

In addition, a bad diode on the alternator can be a parasitic draw also, so the alternator may need to be isolated for the test, if no other draw is found. 

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If you can trace this to a particular fused circuit, you are mainly done.

Pull the fuses, one at a time, park the car for a few days, and see if the draw goes away.

Then, just power that circuit with a relay that is only on when the ignition is on.

OK, this isn't a solution for power door locks (that must be 'listening' for a radio signal even when the car is parked). But if you insist on having power door locks in a Speedster, you deserve problems like this.

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@Sacto Mitch posted:

But if you insist on having power door locks in a Speedster, you deserve problems like this.

Perhaps.

But then again, I've never come back from a dinner or movie and found somebody sitting in the car, either. Good fences make good neighbors.

Let's see now, I have PW, PL, and PL on lock closes all the windows automatically, with seperate toggle to operate the door locks from within, cruise control, heated seats, cup holders, AC, sound system, blue tooth telephone, and microphone made to look like an original pull button on the dash... and oh did I mention a 5sp

... and you wonder why you have a parasitic drag on the battery?

@IaM-Ray posted:

Let's see now, I have PW, PL, and PL on lock closes all the windows automatically, with seperate toggle to operate the door locks from within, cruise control, heated seats, cup holders, AC, sound system, blue tooth telephone, and microphone made to look like an original pull button on the dash... and oh did I mention a 5sp

You don't have a Speedster/Roadster.

You have a Miata in disguise.......

@Sacto Mitch posted:

.If you can trace this to a particular fused circuit, you are mainly done..

Mitch is correct here, although it's important to note that there are ways to find the offending circuit without just waiting. If you have a multi-meter that reads DCV you can do it with a relatively simple process.

The offending circuit will not be one of the "switched" loads, since the drain happens with the key off.

.... but I'm telling you, the drain is in one or more of the gewgaws. They cannot be shut off with anything but the battery isolation key. Kill them (by pulling the fuse), and you've isolated it - but you haven't fixed it. The battery should stay up for at least a couple of weeks with this stuff running, but not a couple of months.

Civilization comes at a price.

Convenience but in reality I always keep it stored with the battery tender so I get that some drain is to be expected even BMW and others cannot go without being plugged into a power source for long without the battery dying due to accessories overload never mind Teslas.

@IaM-Ray posted:

Let's see now, I have PW, PL, and PL on lock closes all the windows automatically, with seperate toggle to operate the door locks from within, cruise control, heated seats, cup holders, AC, sound system, blue tooth telephone, and microphone made to look like an original pull button on the dash... and oh did I mention a 5sp

I thought I knew you, Ray...

My IM is a skateboard compared to yours. 

You have the Wine of a porsche 6 to listen to Bob. _

Well I charged the battery fully and it gives me 12.81 at rest.  I load tested it and it seems to show that the battery is good.  

I tried cranking the engine and it won't turn but goes to a typical selenoid click after a bit of key holding.  I think the starter may be gone.  Comments?

If you haven't, I'd check the voltage at the starter, or on the alternator while you have someone turn the starter. It might just be the battery cables connections or something in between. If the voltage drops way low, I'd guess there's corrosion somewhere.

If that's not the problem, I agree, I'd suspect the alternator.

I helped fix one of my neighbor's battery cable early last Winter when she had trouble starting her car.  There was a large, crimped-on lug connector at the starter end of the +12 volt cable and it had corroded like crazy, right down into the center of the cable.  I got her a new cable from Honda (there were several feeds off of it that had to be kept) and that cured it.  

As Mike mentioned, I would test the voltage right at the starter while someone is trying to crank the starter over to see if it's getting enough voltage.  If it is getting at around 12 volts, then the starter is suspect.

Just throwing this out, maybe have the battery checked for possibilty of a bad cell.

I have been experiencing a similar situation with my Magnum and it is intermittent which is frustrating. So far I have tightened all connections and this seemed to clear it up for awhile. Then replaced battery, alternator (I wanted a higher amp one anyway) and starter( I wanted a gear reduction starter anyway) and thought I had the problem fixed and once in a while when I turn the starter key I get nothing. Turn it a few more times and the starter fires right up. I also wrapped the started in heat shielding material and wrapped the exhaust pipe in the area of the starter. I have ruined a few starters in cars over the years from header of exhaust heat. I have two other things that may be causing this problem, the main power cutoff switch and the ignition switch. The starter 12v power coming from the battery is going through a cutoff switch which after 20 years may be causing a voltage drop from wear and corrosion. If this isn't it the ignition switch but it doesn't make sense because I am getting voltage to the solenoid when I turn the ignition to start. So I back up and take the ignition switch out as the culprit. I will buy a longer positive battery cable and bypass the cut off switch and see if this gets rid of the issue. I hope my experience sparks some new ideas for your situation at the least you know you are not alone in the struggle you are having with you car. Let us know how it goes.

@IaM-Ray posted:

Well I charged the battery fully and it gives me 12.81 at rest.  I load tested it and it seems to show that the battery is good.  

I tried cranking the engine and it won't turn but goes to a typical selenoid click after a bit of key holding.  I think the starter may be gone.  Comments?

12.8v is too high. Leave the battery disconnected from the car, and disconnected from the tender for 24 hours and then check the "rest" voltage. 2.1v per cell is 100% charge, so it should be no higher than 12.6 volts.

Have you removed the connections, especially at the battery and frame grounds and actually cleaned them? You know, with a wire brush? Tight and dirty is as bad as loose. The only way to make a good connection is to clean it first, there could be corrosion under the terminals.

As Gordon and Mike said there could easily be corroded cables inside the cable itself or at the end crimp where you can't see. Cables can easily be tested with a voltmeter. If you lose more than .1v along the length of a cable, it's bad.

I agree with Stan on this though, it's probably one of your many(too many?) gewgaws.

My observations:  When you first shut off an engine and test a good battery it can initially read up to 14.5 and be ok, after standing static for a while 12.6 -12.8 is also ok and with engine running 13.8 is ideal...

Good Idea @Jimmy V. @DannyP   et:al  

And don't forget external star washers under all of the ground terminals.......Bruce

Well, I got the car on the quickjack and I got under the car.  Miracle #1, I managed to get my male offspring to sit in the car and keep the key turned to engage the starter while I tapped it with a hammer. #2 Results:  Low and behold there was smoke so there obviously FIRE or a jam up  !!!>... The starter is shot.  

So thank you all for the help.  

Well, at least you found the problem before we got to page 2…..

I saw that half post you sent Gordon,   Thanks for the detailed help.

@IaM-Ray posted:

Well, I got the car on the quickjack and I got under the car.  Miracle #1, I managed to get my male offspring to sit in the car and keep the key turned to engage the starter while I tapped it with a hammer. #2 Results:  Low and behold there was smoke so there obviously FIRE or a jam up  !!!>... The starter is shot.  

So thank you all for the help.  

Glad you identified the problem. My Bosch starter has a sticker on it with a very strong warning NOT to tap it with a hammer. I had no idea that it might blow up!

Apparently, Canadian cars with healthy doses of Japan and Germany also inherit some British flavor.

As in Lucas smoke!!!!!!

@Michael Pickett posted:

Glad you identified the problem. My Bosch starter has a sticker on it with a very strong warning NOT to tap it with a hammer. I had no idea that it might blow up!

I only lightly tapped it ) :  but in any case I could hear it spinning in no man's land so it will be step 1 and hopefully the only step in this madness. Arrives this morning at the wholesaler.

@IaM-Ray posted:

I only lightly tapped it ) :  but in any case I could hear it spinning in no man's land so it will be step 1 and hopefully the only step in this madness. Arrives this morning at the wholesaler.

Just teasing. Most of us have tapped on starters at sometime in our wrenching pasts. I sure have.

I was just imagining that the Bosch warning probably had some lurid history behind it - like "Luke, get the BIG hammer" and "It should still be under warranty.'

Glad you are on the way to a swift resolution!

Auto starters used to have a much thicker outer shell, making them really rugged.  I'm thinking starters from DELCO and Bendix back in the 40's - 80's, here.   Those were built like tanks and were even more rugged in truck and commercial applications.  You could beat the heck out of them with a BFH and nary cause a dent.  Maybe the Bosch starters have much thinner outer shells(?) and if you hammer on them they deflect inward and damage the windings, potentially causing SCHNAPPEN OF DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKEN?

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@Michael Pickett posted:

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...My Bosch starter has a sticker on it with a very strong warning NOT to tap it with a hammer...

Being naturally curious, I was wondering why that might be, especially as my first instinct, when anything mechanical starts acting up, is to whack it with a hammer and ask questions later. (By the way, this won't work on an iPhone or on most other devices with glass screens.)

I found the following truthy-sounding explanation on the internet and thought I would pass it on before verifying anything about it, because that's what the internet is for, right?

"A starter is essentially an electric motor with graphite brushes inside, and over time, they wear out. If a little moisture gets in the housing and rusts up the brushes and brush holders, or the brushes are nearly worn out, gently rapping on the starter housing can sometimes free them up, letting them make enough contact to make the starter work. That’s all tapping will do, it is not a magic formula to fix anything long term, but this temporary measure will help to get you home or to the mechanic...

*Special Note

Inside some starters are permanent magnets instead of electrically energized ones as in the days of old. A hard whack or use of aggressive force could crack the magnets and then a whole new starter would be required."

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just buy a hi-torque one and be done with it..been there done that

I agree with the Hi-torque starter. I just replaced a standard Vw style starter with a Hi-torque gear reduction starter. It is a huge improvement to have the faster turn over of my Rotary engine and not worry about the engine not catching the first couple of slow cranks and then have a drained battery. This is the one I bought off of EBay. Many VW suppliers are out of stock on this starter.

New NAPA VW Auto Stick starter Bendix drive jambed hard against the flywheel, I had to pull the engine to get the starter off the flywheel...that was a first.

@Michael Pickett posted:

Just teasing. Most of us have tapped on starters at sometime in our wrenching pasts. I sure have.

I was just imagining that the Bosch warning probably had some lurid history behind it - like "Luke, get the BIG hammer" and "It should still be under warranty.'

Glad you are on the way to a swift resolution!

You got me in that one  
Alan,  I guess a bigger hammer might have been the solution