Bead roller power--need help making a foot pedal speed control

What???

Before you do anything else, you need to know what voltage and current draw this winch motor requires. And we're not talking about no-load running, we're talking about how much current it draws under full load, preferably not locked/not turning.

I run my trailer winch off of a small deep-cycle battery(U1 lawn tractor size). That would be your best bet, IMHO, rather than AC to DC adapter. Any old car battery will do.

What gauge are the wires feeding the winch? That will tell you the approximate current draw. My winch has 8 gauge, which will handle up to 50 amps.

10 gauge is for 30 amps, 12 gauge is 20, and 14 gauge will take 15 amps, usually.

Here's the motor, Danny.

It's kind of a toy—about the size of the little lifting motor on the treadmill. Those wires might be 10s but I think they're 12s. So maybe 30 amps? No way it's drawing more than the treadmill motor, which is bigger than the motor on my compressor and weighs about 50 pounds. That's why I like the treadmill controllers.

I know I can just rig it to a battery but I don't happen to have a spare car battery just now and also I think it'd be a lot neater to just plug it in....

OK, so you need to pull out the AC to DC converter/power supply from the treadmill. Judging by that relay with a 12v coil, the treadmill would seem to output 12v DC. Verify with a voltmeter first!

Then find yourself a 12v speed controller that can handle at least 20 amps controlled by a potentiometer/rheostat in a foot pedal. I'm sure you could find an old sewing machine foot pedal somewhere.

And I'm thinking that, most likely, the voltage conversion/control is also using pulse width modulation (PWM) to control the speed of the motor.  That means that the controller is sending out a series of pulses to the motor at 12 volts each, but the pulses are shorter and farther apart at slow speeds, then get longer and closer together at higher speeds.

Hot Rod Ron, my friend with the '34 Dodge street rod, used to do this stuff for a living for Norton Abrasives.  He was one of their production line engineers for, like, ever.  I'll send him the link to this thread and see what he comes up with.

Talked to Ron but he lost the neutral on the power coming into his house during the last storm and smoked his internet connection along with all of his appliances.  Sounded just like what we went through with the generator, last summer - lots of weird stuff got smoked.

Anyway, he'll be back on in a day or so and check in.  In the meantime, he said:

1. Is the motor you want to use AC or DC and what voltage?  If you want to use the boat winch motor you know that it's a 12V motor, but if you want to use the tread motor from the treadmill you'll have to check the label on it to see what it wants.
2. Do you ever want to run it in reverse?  (might be handy if the work piece gets stuck and you want to back out of it.)  The treadmill motor (if it's AC) might not like to do that.
3. A friend of ours is using those treadmill motors in electric wheelchairs - They are rated for continuous use, have lots of torque and respond well to different controller types.  That also implies that they can run backwards so they might be DC (or have a separate phase winding inside to run backwards - we don't know). We'll try to get him (Charlie) in the loop, too, for what he uses for variable input controllers on the wheel chairs.

He mentioned a bunch of other stuff to ask about but it was over my pay grade - I only used to make little sparks - like under 5 volts was my world.  Ron dealt in stuff that makes BIG sparks.

Ron also mentioned a web site for automotive electrical stuff that he uses a lot and I had never heard of, so here's one more source for interesting parts.  Their web site is good but slightly non-intuitive so just click on the list icon left of the yellow '40 Austin coupe at the top of the page for the full menu.  "Watson's Street Works"

https://watsons-streetworks.com/home-mobile/

@Gordon Nichols:  I want to use the winch motor which is 12v DC. The treadmill is also 12 DC, as I recall from my adventures building a potter's wheel 3/4 of the way to completion. I had the controllers pictured running the big treadmill motor, with all the safety features still on line (instant-off pull-off, overload fuse, etc.). Will double-check that output.

Yes, the treadmill motor is too much for this job. The winch motor is probably perfect. And Yes I want it to be able to reverse. That feature may (or may not) be incorporated into the winch gearbox. Will investigate.

@DannyP I figure an in-line pedal would be the easiest to wire but maybe the hardest to find and most expensive? I've seen some sewing machine pedals on-line and the wires coming off those are like 12 or 14 gauge. That's the main reason I want to use this converter board: it looks like it wants to have a low-amp, low volt modulator tell it how to control speed.

The treadmill had a reverse feature as well, so I figure that's available. Heck, I could probably just use the whole existing treadmill rig. But:

I just don't want to have to mount this whole big goofy treadmill dashboard up next to my bead roller.

"I just don't want to have to mount this whole big goofy treadmill dashboard up next to my bead roller."

I hear yah.   Even the guys going to the International Space Station have gone from this, in the old shuttle:

To this, in the Space X Dragon:

At least they keep moving towards the screens on the Rocinante:

Using all of the control from the potter's wheel might be the way to go.  It looks like the treadmill had a soft console running a serial buss (5 wire flat cable) to the motor controller that did all of the conversions from digital to analog.  using as much of that as possible sounds like a lot less work than re-creating the proverbial wheel.

AFAIK, electric winches using a 12v DC motor go forward and backwards.

Ed, I was not suggesting to wire the sewing machine pedal DIRECTLY, merely using it as an input device.

Gordon, no way for me to tell what protocol or how many wires were used on that flat wire, but it is definitely an RJ-45 connector, which is 8 conductors. And I've made up flat and Cat 3, 5, 6, and 6a cables for like eons.

Here's a look at the winch motor and gearbox after I pulled the cable out. There's no reverse but the clicker can come off easily.

I also pulled out all the old treadmill junk and lashed it all together to see if the controller still works.

It does.

So when I look online for foot pedals I get like this thing for sewing machines. Notice it's got a phono cable plug output.

• Resistance: approx. 1KΩ - 20KΩ
• Rated voltage: 15V DC
• Rated current: 3mA max

This looks like the sort of thing that could integrate into my board... but how?

Most everything else I find has like a big AC plug pass-through system, like this.

I feel like that's a crude thing but maybe would work if I went with the computer power supply? It's an AC controller with a 4 amp rating.

Looking for the speed control by trial and error like a bomb squad technician...

Then I remembered... my dad's old battery charger.

Interesting.  

Let’s not over think this.  All you need is a cheap, PWM 12 VDC motor controller that you can, hopefully, adapt to the foot control potentiometer.  Something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/PWM-Mot...3TGSJASHDYPMG9Q0T530

@Gordon Nichols Grand slam HOME run! $13.99 and a sewing machine pedal, along with a double pole double throw switch to reverse winch polarity.

@Gordon Nichols posted:

Interesting.  

Let’s not over think this.  All you need is a cheap, PWM 12 VDC motor controller that you can, hopefully, adapt to the foot control potentiometer.  Something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/PWM-Mot...3TGSJASHDYPMG9Q0T530

Add one of these 12V 20A power supply bricks, and you've got a complete reversible 12V motor drive system.

https://www.amazon.com/ALITOVE...TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

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I never would have guessed this is how you make a tonneau cover.

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@Eric (McGruff) posted:

Add one of these 12V 20A power supply bricks, and you've got a complete reversible 12V motor drive system.

https://www.amazon.com/ALITOVE...TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

Yup.

And so you're not overloading the DPDT switch I mentioned for reversing polarity, throw in a couple 30 amp Bosch-style relays to take the current.

MITCH!

Ordered the controller and transformer. Still not sure which/what pedal to get. Also started tightening up the gearbox. I saw one of the inner cogs was not ideally aligned so I took off that gear and messed with the spacers and put it back and then took it apart and did it again like two more times and then I got it lined up as best I thought it could be and snapped the snap ring back on it and noticed that the big gear had some flat teeth.

So I could see it was three big cogs riveted together so I popped off the spring clip—

and that damn thing sailed off into a far corner of the shop, never to be seen again. I have a box of spare spring clips somewhere so I searched for those first...nada.

Anyway, moving right along I drilled out the rivets and clocked the two outside gears 90 degrees to line up the next rivet hole and I was about to pop another two rivets in that when I noticed that the center hex hole was no longer a hex hole. So I clocked it another 90. Got some steel rivets and used the vice to pull them with my little hand rivet set. Now there are gear teeth all the way around.

I tied it back on with a paper clip for now and it tested OK. So I just need to source another C clip for it.

Started looking at the handle side of the bead roller. It's a shaft with a flat. The big final gear on the winch has some holes in it and I was thinking I could make a coupler using those. I may have to call upon my machinist friend.

While I'm waiting for my electric stuff I went ahead and painted the bead roller frame with some left over hammertone.

Then I got impatient and

Bead roller progress. I got my cheap AC/DC converter and the motor control. Haven't set up the power box yet but the controller works as it should.

I had my friend Mike turn a collar for me with a set screw so I can make a coupler.

I laid the setup down on the table to figure out how to bracket them together.

I think I'll cut a couple pieces of 1x square tubing and through-bolt them even with the bottom edge of the roller body, then weld plate to the bottom of them and extend it and drill for the gearbox.

The new AC to DC box will fit pretty neat.

And the controller should be easy to mount as well. (I still haven't decided what pedal to get).

I spent a couple hours today cutting and tacking together the other half of the coupler.

"I still haven't decided what pedal to get".

Ideally, the pedal's potentiometer resistance should be the same as that little control you're turning to vary the speed up and down.  Measure that control's resistance with an ohmmeter (disconnect the wires before you measure resistance) and get a pedal with a resistance range to match and you'll be in like Flynn.

That controller is pretty slick!   It's amazing what's ut there just waiting for us to spend our moolah on!

Will do, Gordon. Thanks!

Spent an hour and a half dry-fitting parts for the mounting bracket after dinner. Two 11-inch bits of 1-inch square and a 17 by 2 5/8 inch bit of 3/16 plate, with a 7-inch foot on it to put the platform under the center (by weight) of the gearbox.

Drilling pilot holes through the square tubes first, then I'll clamp them to the roller's frame and drill and tap that, bolts all the way through that'll act as studs on the opposite side.

I'll probably fold the close corner of that plate up, as well as the far edge, to impart some lateral stiffness before welding it to the square tubes. Also leaning toward making a mounting plate for the whole tool instead of clamping it in a vice.

We do have fun here....

No idea of what the impedance would be, but guitar volume pedals are pretty bullet prof and I'd venture a guess you could buy a cheap one on CList or eBay, if not your local pawn shop.  

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Not all potentiometers of the same value are the same.

Some are 'linear' (half way up is half the total resistance, etc.) and on some, the resistance increases geometrically (or logarithmically) as you crank them up.

The latter are (or used to be) called 'audio tapers' because they used to be used to control audio volume levels (before the digital age).

So, if you're going to measure the resistance of that pot you're testing with, note how the resistance changes as you twist the knob. Does it change the same for a given amount of twist at the low end as at the high end, or change a little at first and then a lot?

Whatever it does, look for the same kind of winding in the pedal you get. If your motor needs one and you get the other, it will be almost unusable.

Uh, feeling like Cliff Clavin again.

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You're OK Mitch, as long as you don't tell us that drinking alcohol makes you smarter by killing the slow and weak brain cells first LOL!

Mitch is exactly right, a guitar volume pedal is probably audio taper(which is a logarithmic change in resistance). But if it's an effect pedal, then most probably linear.

@DannyP posted:

You're OK Mitch, as long as you don't tell us that drinking alcohol makes you smarter by killing the slow and weak brain cells first LOL!

Mitch is exactly right, a guitar volume pedal is probably audio taper(which is a logarithmic change in resistance). But if it's an effect pedal, then most probably linear.

C'mon, that was one of Cliff's best theories!  As long as you don't get too drunk and kill too many at once...

will limit my search to "linear"

I just looked at the foot pedal from one of my wife's Brother quilting machines.   There is a huge risk involved with this endeavor - There is nothing more terrifying than an Irishwoman who has had her sewing machine messed with - But peeking inside (Don't you guys say NUTHIN'!) it has a linear potentiometer with a slide that goes back and forth moved by a roller driven by a ramp on the backside of the pedal.  The pot looks like one of these:

https://www.digikey.com/en/pro..._G3UwnBoCL64QAvD_BwE

It must be a relatively tried-and-true design.  It is the same model on all of her Brother machines and it says "Model T" on the bottom (no kidding).  Any Brother (or other) sewing machine store will have replacements in stock or certainly on Amazon.

Now for the important stuff:

It has a 1/8" Earbud-style, 2-wire audio connector on the end of a 4' cord to plug into the side of the machine.

Pedal up (at rest) shows exactly 50K ohms on my trusty digital Fluke Ohmmeter.

Pedal down (full speed) shows exactly 1K ohms.

The action is linear.  Half pedal shows about 25K ohms.

Then I got really brave and tested one of the other pedals (she has three, all Model Ts and she was on the phone at the time - Shhhhhh......)

That one showed 52.4K ohms pedal up.

Pedal down showed 1.026K ohms

So it looks like the range is NOT super-accurate for the application, and the important range limits look like 1K - 50K ohms

Hope this helps, Ed.  Go measure your pot.  You may just luck out.  If not, a different linear (straight-line) pot is readily available on Amazon.

"Go measure your pot."

When did they start measuring pot with ohms instead of ounces and things like "nickle bag" and stuff?  Just asking.

I just read yesterday that the town of Brookline, MA, just outside of Boston and one of the most educated and wealthiest towns in the state (Tom Brady is currently selling his 12,500 sq ft home there), also has the highest-grossing Marijuana store in the state.  Pot's legal here.

Must be a coincidence, I'm sure.

Whoa dudes, this is waaaay too heavy, now I got the munchies just reading it.

It's legal here in NY, IF you have a medical marijuana card. That's a big IF.

One of the interesting architectural projects I worked on recently was a marijuana growing & processing facility - very interesting technology and very precise environmental control.

@DannyP posted:

It's legal here in NY, IF you have a medical marijuana card. That's a big IF.

Can't you buy Ganja in NY if you have a membership card showing you're a Rastafarian and, therefore, you need if for "religious purposes" ...or has Cuomo shut down those services, too?

An interesting fact is there are a dozen legal marijuana dispensaries within 20 miles of Hershey, PA. I've been told (ahem!) the local sales of Hershey's chocolate are in direct proportion to those dispensaries sales of weed. Don't know that for sure, but it does  make sense....I've been told (ahem!).

I'm not a Rastafarian and I don't know anyone who is, sorry.

The local dispensary parking lot ALWAYS has customers, though, every time I drive past.

multi meter set on 200k ohms...

Dial full left: 88

Max boogie: 0

Gonna see if I can find some pedals with impedance listed. None of these scooter pedals list ohms but some list voltage: 5v in; .8 to 4.3 out. Something like that.

Thanks Gordon.

@DannyP posted:

It's legal here in NY, IF you have a medical marijuana card. That's a big IF.

I'd have thought NY would have been like IL and be a recreational marijuana state. How else to distract the serfs from the disaster the feudal lords have wrought?

Bread and circus-- it might be our new state motto.

@edsnova posted:

multi meter set on 200k ohms...

Dial full left: 88

Max boogie: 0

Gonna see if I can find some pedals with impedance listed. None of these scooter pedals list ohms but some list voltage: 5v in; .8 to 4.3 out. Something like that.

Thanks Gordon.

Impedance and resistance tain't the same thing, grasshopper.

@Stan Galat posted:

I'd have thought NY would have been like IL and be a recreational marijuana state. How else to distract the serfs from the disaster the feudal lords have wrought?

Bread and circus-- it might be our new state motto.

We're usually pretty progressive, but I guess not in this case.

We are in the DC Universe, Danny.