Beck Speedster Real world driving experience

Hey Vince!

Remember when I told you that my 1835cc with single port Kadrons put out 250 hp? Well I take it all back! I have a feeling that the dyno numbers the guys at Jiffy Lube gave me were slightly embellished. I guess they just wanted to convince me that the synthetic oil additive and tornado carburater attachment were worth my investment!!

Jim, I don't remember what I had for lunch yesterday, So I guess my answer is NO, but I will say driving one of these little toys with 250 HP would probably soil my underwear, If I was wearing any....

All you'd hear from me would be YEEE FREAKING HAWWWW!!!!! And just in case, I would carry spare panties. angela

I have rally learned alot about engines from this thread, I didn't need to learn that Vince doesn't wear underware......... Jim Ward, I looked for the post where you put your dyno sheet on the web, any idea where it might be. Your new engine is from CB isn't it?

Pat

I have driven both Jim's and Bill's 2110 and have to say, they are great driving engines. Smooth from start and easy to launch, and they scoot when passing on the highway. I love them and they are almost as peppy as my CB 2165.

Pat. It's in my file again. Enjoy your car and let us know how it's going! Jim

Jim, I just love that car. It is as sweet a Speedster as ever there was one, including every single real one ever made, really nice.

Cont,

For those interested in a comparable "turnkey" engine, total cost (as
above) is approximately $7,020.00 US. Note that camshaft, lifters, oil
pump cover, shroud (and shroud modifications), type 4 oil cooler/adapter,
and exhaust system were purchased separately and shipped to CB
Performance.

The following engine dyno run was made using premium unleaded 92 octane
pump gas with no muffler. Jetting with 36mm venturis and F11 emulsion
tubes was 155 main, 200 air correction, 55 idle, 175 float needle
valves/seats, and 50 accellerator pump squirters (this jetting is probably
too rich). Note that one carb had an incorrect F2 e-tube (and three
correct F11's). Initial valve setting was .001" to .002" for intake and
exhaust; these clearances will be reset at 100 miles to .003" intake and
.004" exhaust. Spark plugs were NGK D8EA. Corrected brake horsepower and
corresponding torque readings were:

RPM BHP torque (ft/lbs)
2,000 46 121
2,500 60 126
3,000 75 129
3,500 88 132
4,000 104 137
4,500 122 142
5,000 140 147
5,500 154 147
6,000 156 137
6,500 156 126
7,000 140 105

Peak BHP was probably 158 at 6,250 RPM. After the engine warm-up/camshaft
break-in period, basic tuning, etc., (during the dyno run) oil temperature
reached 180 degrees F, cylinder head temperature reached 280 degrees F, and
oil pressure was 25 psi at idle (hot). Total ignition advance was 30
degrees BTDC. Oil for startup and break-in period was Kendall 20/50 GT1
(about 4 1/2 quarts capacity).

Since the above dyno run I have installed a Petronix magnetic trigger
replacement for the points/condenser ignition, installed a CD ignition
system to boost secondary ignition voltage, diagnosed/corrected the 44 IDF
carburetor problems (float levels too high and replaced the incorrect
emulsion tube), and tuned with different main and air correction jets. I
estimate output with 93 to 94 octane unleaded premium gasoline to be about
160 BHP.

*************************************************

Do those last 3 posts in whatever language that was mean it goes fast?

Cont,

Early last fall I replaced the Weber 44 IDF's with 48 IDF's (intake
manifolds have the same bolt pattern and mine were 48mm at the carburetor
mounting flange). Experienced no power loss at lower RPM and mid-range
throttle response is much stronger; haven't taken the new engine past 4,000
RPM as yet but the power improvement probably extends all the way up to
between 6,500 and 7,000 RPM, maybe 165 to 170 BHP. My current 48 IDF
jetting is as follows: 40mm venturis, 160 main jets, 200 air corrections,
60 idle jets, 50 pump squirters (the pump bypass is closed on the 48's),
F11 emulsion tubes, 200 float needle valves/seats, and float level settings
of 11.5mm "top" and 20mm "drop". The Weber veolicty stacks were replaced
with Dellorto velocity stacks because Weber stacks are only nominally 48mm
(they measure about 46mm) and are too long for proper clearance with the
air cleaner top cover; the Dellorto velocity stacks measure 48mm and are
approximately 5/16" shorter which reduces air flow restriction within the
air cleaner.

At this time I also increased total ignition advance to 32 degrees BTDC.

Note that the original DP8EA spark plugs were too cold, and D7PREA were
also too cold. Engine is currently running D6EA spark plugs with good
results (or use DP6EA-9). Power with the larger carburetors and ignition
advance increase is now probably about 170 BHP at 6,500 RPM and the car is
stronger throughout the entire RPM band..

Here are the specs on my CB 2110 as provided by George Brown.

VW type 1 engine was built by Pat Downs of CB Performance and dyno'd at CB
the week of 12/06/00; I have no idea how accurate CB's engine dyno is. My
engine specs are below followed by 1) dyno BHP/torque readings, 2)
description of the car build specifications, and 3) transaxle type and gear
ratios.

CB 4130 (chrome-moly) 82mm stroke counterweighted crankshaft (8 pins)
CB 4130 crankshaft racing spacer (replaces stock VW spacer)
CB 4130 crank/flywheel gland nut and washer
CB forged steel lighweight flywheel (12 1/2 lb.)
CB 4130 "H" section racing connecting rods (5.5" center to center)
CIMA/Mahle 90.5 pistons/cylinders (forged pistons)
Total-Seal second piston compression rings, other rings are CIMA/Mahle
New VW AS41 case, fully machined (full-flow oiling, shuffle pinned,
external oil filter, etc.)
CB 4130 cylinder studs (8mm)
CB finned cast aluminum valve covers (modified for external breather box
connection)
Kennedy 1,700 lb. clutch pressure plate with spring-hub friction plate
Balanced engine (rotating/reciprocating parts)
CB 044 cylinder heads, ported/polished by CB, 3-angle valve job
8.5 to 1 static compression ratio
Copper O-ring head gaskets
Manley S/S "super duty" valves (42mm intake and 37.5mm exhaust)
Web Cam 121/125 hard-welded/clearanced cam (installed "straight up")
cam specs: lift .490" in/.478"ex @valve; dur: 298 in/288 ex (270 in/
262 ex @.050")
lobes hardened to 56 Rockwell
CB 4130 straight cut cam drive gear set (steel)
CB high performance rocker arm shafts/spacers/shims
Stock VW 1.1 to 1 ratio rocker arms
Porsche style swivel-foot valve adjusting screws
Pauter Machine lifters (with camshaft contact surface oiling holes, 64
Rockwell)
CB dual valve springs
CB titanium valve spring retainers
CB 4130 valve "keepers"
CB 4130 pushrods
Melling high volume oil pump (30mm gears)
Gene Berg oil pump cover, external feed with high pressure relief valve
External full flow oil filter (use Mann, Bosch, or Purolator oil filter
with anti-drainback valve)
Late style VW OEM "doghouse" fan shroud (Gene Berg modified for type 4 oil
cooler)
NOS VW type 4 oil cooler (aluminum instead of steel and more cooling rows)
Gene Berg welded and balanced VW cooling fan
Gene Berg "Achiever" billet steel degreed crankshaft pulley (stock VW
diameter)
CB cast aluminum finned oil "sump" (1 1/2 quart capacity)
VW mechanical fuel pump (stock, approx. 3.5 psi fuel pressure)
Art Thraen custom made ceramic coated 1 5/8" "merged" exhaust system with 1
5/8" heater boxes
2 1/2" Dynaflow muffler and pipes, ceramic coated
Dual Weber 44 IDF carburetors
CB cast aluminum intake manifolds, ported/matched to heads
CB air filters with K&N elements
CB hex-bar carburetor linkage
Bosch 009 distributor (points/condenser)
All new engine small parts (distributor drive gear, fasteners, fan belt
pulley, etc.)
Bosch 12V "blue" coil
Bosch 12V 45 watt alternator (internal voltage regulator)
Bosch high performance aftermarket spark plug/coil high tension wiring
NGK D8EA series spark plugs (12mm, 3/4" thread length)
Engine tin is powder coated (silver fan shroud, everthing else black)

Note that due to an oversight the engine was built without thermostat,
cooling flaps, and linkage rods; these were added to the engine by
Intermeccanica before it was installed in the car to provide for proper
warm ups and cooling during cold weather. Since then several people with
2,110 engines have suggested I remove them and warm up for 5 minutes in
winter before driving, but they cause no problems and improve cold start
warm ups so will remain in place.

I don't understand why recent "differences of opinion" here on the SOC always seem to end up with "personal attacks" or just plain rudeness.

Is this forum about sharing information or perpetuating arguments? I see posts here written in ways that I suspect none of us would ever talk to someone face-to-face.

It's tough to have a productive discussion when someone is only interested in making the point "I'm right and all the rest of you yahoos are wrong!"

While we don't have to be sicky sweet to each other, we really ought to consider at least being civil.

(Well, I see Karl Macklin has "edited" his last post to remove the personal attack. But my point stands. This is a big group - we should think a minute before hitting that SEND button.)

John,

You are absolutely correct. Let me apologize if I offended anyone.

Luke,

It means that you can get 170hp out of a 2110 and yea it goes fast!

Karl

John, I dont think I ever attacked anyone personally. I stated what was in this customers engine and asked the members of this forum to prove it doesn't make the advertised H-P he says it does. The statement was made, "I am sorry but your engine does not make 170 H-P" I would hope that this person or persons would have some proof of this. CB Performance was included to be in so many words liars, or "hyperbole" what ever that means. If someone is going to make a statement like the one that was made in this thread then they better be ready to back it up.

Pat - "hyperbole" means "exaggeration for effect." It's where the term "hype" came from. It's like telling someone an engine makes 168 HP and then telling someone else it makes 170 HP. It's not "lying" - it's just exaggerating a little.

You must know that some engine builders/marketers do inflate their HP numbers. If you're saying you've never engaged in this practice, then that's good enough.

But, sometimes long, detailed explanations to simple questions can wind up sounding political and evasive.

I don't think any of this discussion needed to get personal. It was just an honest difference of opinion based upon different real-world experiences.

John, Are you in politics =), because you totally went around what I was try to point out. If a person is going to make as bold a statement as Mr steele did, then he needs to back it up with proof. Cold Fusion, no just a really good combination of parts with cylinder heads that flow extremely well, no hyperbole.

Look guys, let me make one last stab at making the point I tried to make originally but did such a bad job of butchering.

First let me start with a public apology to Pat Downs for what did devolve into personal attack by me based on a simple human error on his part regarding jets and how they were marked versus how big they actually were that lead me to chase my tail on a very simple problems for far longer than it should have, in retrospect no big deal and certainly not big enough to air it in public as an attack on Pat's abilities which I do have utmost respect for.

My post regarding Robert's 170HP claim, in retrospect was a very bad one. The roots of my post have nothing to do with whether Pat can or can't make a 2110 Type I engine produce 170HP on his Dyno.

Upon reviewing my posts on this thread, I realize that it came off that I believe Pat and perhaps all other Type I engine builders just sit around and make up numbers that they write on a sheet of paper called a Dyno sheet and pass them out to sell engines. Nothing could be further from the truth with regard to what I believe.

I believe the numbers Pat puts on a Dyno sheet are the numbers he sees on his Dyno. I believe he is an honest man that builds an honest engine. I have said it before and will say it many times I am sure in the future, I love my CB engine, and it is a great engine.

What I did not get across successfully (probably because I was involved in a pissing contest, getting personal and not in trying to get my point across, something I again apologize profusely for) was I do not believe in Dyno results being used as absolute measures. I know from personal experience with race engines I have bought from builders of the highest repute, if you take their engine and put it on another Dyno; you will get different results, sometimes wildly different results. That is why I do not believe in Dyno sheets being used as an absolute measure of what an engine represents.

If someone says to me, my engine produced 170BHP on Pat's Dyno, I will say, wow that sounds great (I promise from now on, that is exactly what I will say). It won't change my feeling about what the engine may or may not make in BHP on another Dyno, because I know those numbers will be different. If my engine was Dyno'ed on Pat's Dyno as well, I will have a pretty good idea what that person's engine will do in my car, as I have my engine to compare it to.

For instance, my engine Dyno'ed at 148 peak HP on Pat's Dyno. Roberts engine Dyno'ed at 168 peak HP on Pat's Dyno, so I can drop Robert's engine in my car in my mind and have a pretty good Idea it's effect on my car in say a 1/4 mile run. Because they were both done on the same Dyno. Now if someone comes along and says, I have an engine that made 150HP on someone else's Dyno, I do not know what that means with regard to my engine and my car as it was Dyno'ed on a different test stand. I do know the 150HP sounds pretty good, just like my 148HP sounds pretty good and 170hp sounds pretty good.

Finally, my comment about what I believe my engine makes in the real world is strictly a seat of the pants comparison from years of racing different cars. From my seat of the pants impression, I don't think my engine feels like 148 BHP, at least if it were measured on the Dyno I have the most experience with, the guy that used to prep a lot of my race cars with me. My belief is if I put my engine on his Dyno, it would not make 148BHP, a Dyno that I believe represents the real world a little more accurately strictly because I have lots of experience with it.

Then in summation, I believe Dyno numbers are relative to the Dyno the engines were tested on, hence I do not believe they are good measures of absolute engine performance from Dyno to Dyno so to speak. In my personal case, I believe the Dyno I am most familiar with would probably register something less than the 148BHP my Dyno sheet from Pat says it would. It is my opinion and nothing more at this point.

Getting back to the bigger picture. Torque and the flatness of that curve is all that matters in day to day driving. If you are a drag racer, then ultimate peak HP counts a lot. If you race on a road course, Torque is where it's at.

Sorry I caused such a furor, anybody want to discuss religion?

Can we stick a fork in this thread? Because it appears to be DONE.

(Anyone want to bet it really isn't?)

Can we dyno that fork?

John: I'll take that bet! And I agree we are all sometimes a bit more confrontational in print than when we are face to face with our Speedster buddies.

I want to express my personal apologies to Pat Downs. I have the utmost respect for Pat Downs as an engine builder. I have heard many, many good things about his builds and when my current engine gets tired I plan to ask him to build me a new engine, probably a modest power plant again in the 1915cc range (again).

The original post didn't mentioned that the engine was actually dyno

Bill, We do not offer warrenty's on our performance engines either. In fact, I doubt you will ever find a company that will. As far as engine sizes go and H-P potential, I always talk to the customer and ask what his needs are, how many miles he plans on using the car for. 168 H-P out of a 2110cc engine is pushing it. I would not want a customer to buy this type of engine for a daily driver speedster. On the other hand, if you want this type of power for a daily driver we can build the engine with a bigger displacement good flowing heads, lower compression and lower lift. You will get 170 h-p but have a reliable engine for daily use. I hope this helps with your question.
Pat Downs

Now things have gotten so much nicer,
Pat, from you last post I am going to take it that large cc's doesn't neccesarily mean horse power. I had Bernie Bergman build me a 2332 that he says will have about 140 horse power, which I beleive will be more then enough horse power, and yet still give me the reliableity that I am looking for, do you agree with that. Also, not to put you on a spot, but how do you feel about Bergman built engines? If you can't answer the last one I will understand.

Thanks, Jerry

Sorry for butting in Jerry. At least from what I've read the key to a good daily driver type engine is to lower compression ratios. You can do that by increasing deck height with spacers and/or semi-hemi cutting the heads (as done by Gene Berg). Semi-hemi heads are recommended for close to sea level applications. As you go to higher altitudes you can stick with the stock chamber design just fine.

Thank you SOC! It's about time this site got back to real discussions. You know it might have started out confrontational, Becks really are better than IMs, JUST KIDDING! Thanks to people like Pat Downs, the real meaning of this site comes out. I was/am really getting sick of "SOC Melt down" CRAP posts! Maybe it's a winter thing (It's starting to be winter in the big AK), and people really start to think what they are putting down when it comes to ink to paper. It's about time we get back to the real SOC! Thank you Pat Downs, as I said the other day, even when we disagree we can still learn. Thanks again for the dyno posts Jim.
Pat

Dyno sheets? We don't need no stinkin dyno sheets!!

R.Carley's correct, fork the dynos. TOM