Beck Suby Conversion...Would you do it?

I'm sure Tom will chime in with a resounding yes! You could probably cover more than half the cost with the sale of your Raby engine. The value of that hunk of metal is appreciating faster than the builder's ego.

I went from a 140 hp CB 2054 to a 175 hp 2.5L SOHC Suby.

Best driving season EVER!

It's so nice to turn the key and go. Before, it took about 15 minutes for her to warm up, which generally left me just getting running well when I reached my destination and often having onlookers watch as I sputtered away after sitting.

I gradually sold all of my air-cooled bits for a decent price.

I love my car and have (and continue to) tweak it.

I definitely recommend the Suby. Joe Fortino sold his AC Beck and did his Suby Dream build.

It all depends on where you're starting and where you want to wind up.
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I really like not having to do much other than standard maintenance like oil changes 

What's the price of entry into this set-up? Just the typical Suby engine , no turbo, etc.

Art, CMC, 1641cc posted:

What's the price of entry into this set-up? Just the typical Suby engine , no turbo, etc.

Conversion is about 15K.

Rusty S posted:

Art, CMC, 1641cc posted:

What's the price of entry into this set-up? Just the typical Suby engine , no turbo, etc.

Conversion is about 15K.

Less the cost of what you sell the air-cooled bits for

I'm a member(Suby not Beck). More torque and HP.  You may miss the long pull through the gears of a slower car but having additional reliability and very little maintenance is nice.

Only the high dollar type-1's and type-4's will be able to run in your rear view mirrors

 

In a heartbeat!

If you are going to rely on a local shop that's closer to you to do your mechanical work, I suggest you drive by with your replica and talk to the shop owner.  You may be surprised at how many small shops won't touch our replicas, no matter what engine powers them.

Jim Kelly posted:

If you are going to rely on a local shop that's closer to you to do your mechanical work, I suggest you drive by with your replica and talk to the shop owner.  You may be surprised at how many small shops won't touch our replicas, no matter what engine powers them.

Jim, there are a few custom shops nearby that love my car-- just not the air-cooled part. The only place that is willing to do the work is Skunk River Restorations (check out some of the work on their site). Last time the car was there they warned me that they are doing less and less VW air-cooled work by choice. Interesting that they don't like to do VW work because a lot of the replacement parts are very poor quality. They've apparently been burned a few times and have had trouble sourcing quality parts. They did some work on the carbs and really got me more power on the dyno. Afterwards it was like I had a whole different car. They have been fantastic and I would have them continue to do the work when needed.  They I just hope that it is less often. There are a few other shops that are closer that said they wouldn't blink an eye at working on the suby.

I originally thought that I would do the work myself. I just don't have the time, gumption, or proper tools... My kids may grow up to be mechanical idiots because I like to golf more than fix the car.

If you only put 6k or less miles on Speedie per year - it will take years of missed oil changes and valve adjustments to justify cost.  If you just want a bigger SEG go for it.  Or Keep what you have til you want another and then go new build with Subbie.  Seems it would be less cost to go Subbie from get go than to retrofit (if you have to pay to have it done).  

Good on ya, Jared, sounds like you've already checked things out in your neighborhood.  From my experience, it's not the mechanics who refuse to work on our cars, it's the shop owners who seem to think that production cars are the only way to make a profit.  Maybe it's just the litigious nature of today's business environment in California.  Everyone's afraid of being sued.  Best of luck in your new venture.   

I think they look the book fee up in their magic pricing boo.  The one that says avg mechanic takes 5 hr to change water pump but a accomplished mechanic can do in to - you still get charged for 5 hours.  Neighbors says his Chevy mechanics can bill 100 hours a week that way.  They are afraid to get stung on unknown replica where normal out in open stuff is hidden.  

While I don't have a suby conversion, I do have a 2.0 inline 4 conversion and going water cooled was the best way forward for me. I'm currently redoing everything to get it to look nice and that's involved a lot of work, but at the end of the day, the car starts first time, has loads of deep down torque and with such a light body it would just kill my old 2.0 type 4. I can't compare numbers as 99% of the work I've done myself, but I'm in mine for about 2.5k, that's for everything. Yeah yeah, SA is dirt cheap. 

If I had a 125 hp Raby engine I would just take care of it and drive. Check the valve lash once every season or two ($6 feeler gauge, big screwdriver, 30mm socket). Change the oil. Check the timing, keep the carbs adjusted right and change the air filters every now and then. I believe Mr. Pipperato can attest to the motor's durability.

It's a lot less money, time and trouble to learn how to do these few basic maintenance chores than to try to find a "professional" to do them for you at $125 per hour. And sure a lot less than getting a new engine retrofit along with a cooling system, electronic fuel injection & etc.

Having done a Suby swap I will say I am not at all sorry i did, and if I stumble across a Speedie with engine needs I would not hesitate to do another. $5,000 is a reasonable DiY price and, yeah, $12-$15k seems about right with the labor and warranty of a real pro. 

My car uses the stock ECU and so I troubleshoot with a $50 hand-held OBDII scanner. I get a code (currently idle air control valve) and I know what component is dodgy. Easy!

That said, I could not imagine that more shops would want to work on a Subified Speedster than an air-cooled one. These are highly customized cars that don't fit into any of the service holes most service holes employ.

P.S.: I was loving that Skunk River site and thinking the shop was totally righteous until I checked the German page. A GEX engine? Really guys? You fix Rolls Royces and Ferraris and you install GEX in customers' VWs? 

Question for Suby guys–what's the most common suspension type? I suppose I could bug Cary about how they do it at Beck. Is swing axle with camber compensator the most common method of rear suspension ? I'm looking at the Suby as the way to go with one of these cars.

 

IM uses only IRS back end 

I once owned sheep in a third world country. We had a flock of about 5 ewes on roughly 2 acres of grass with a pond and a comfortable enclosure. The entire thing was fenced with wood pickets, about 5 ft high, sharpened on the top.

The sheep had everything they could ever want-- plenty of grass, water, and protection from predators. Still, they made every effort to get out to eat the tightly shorn grass outside the fence. On day, I came home to find a ewe impaled on the top of the fence.

That grass is always greener looking somewhere else.

Having a Subaru engine doesn't mean every tire store with a couple of ASE certified wrenches is going to welcome you with open arms. Stuff will break at some point-- and I don't know, but I'm guessing that the parts and training support isn't going to be very strong for 20 year old Legacys in a few years.

IMHO, there are worse things than adjusting your own valves and dealing with the occasional carb problem.

That must be the same one who tried to jump off at the grand canyon and her husband came telling her there would never be another You.. I mean ewe.  

DS uses only Swing back end.    

Times 2 on what Ed said above about cost of Soob entry costs. I'm a homebuilder and like to mess with engines at my own level of involvement regarding knowledge base, tools on hand, willingness to explore new stuff and chances of success and the almighty buck that will get involved.

My homebuilt Soob is a success as is Ed's. Nicely enough we took different paths for our own reasons and each has it's own merits. I'm old school and I don't like electronic wiring stuff. Ed's ok with that and did a nice job of modifying his Soob wiring mess into something that works just fine. Horror struck at the thought, I plugged up my Fuel injection ports and replaced the Soob " air intake box' with a Weber 32/36 carb. 

Ed has a stock Soob ignition and fuel system and it works very well. I had nothing to go from other than experience and the internet showed an easy solution to mount a Ford Escort ignition system running the advance curve through a Megajolt system. I have a Saab rad up front. I'm pretty much content now that the system is proven itself over many miles hot and cold . 

The Frankenmotor is a nice solution for me as to the space between the frame rails on my older IM  The final on board price was excellent to thanks to the JDM process.

Geno Boyd did my tranny beefed up and down to a 3.44  R&P and all's looking good  with that. 

Just an update, I guess. Hopefully Ed and I can go for a ride in each other cars next year at Carlisle. ....Ed  ?    7 x 7 is 49   you show me yours and I'll show you mine....eh ?

 

Becks are swing axle. I have a camber compensator.

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Stan, perfectly stated... you have me framed correctly.

I appreciate all of the insights from the SOC brethren. This is why I posted my dilemma here. I want to hear the perspectives. Admittedly, with the exception of software upgrades, I am a greener pasture guy. Luckily I have been able to constrain myself from making too many major life mistakes jumping from one verdant pasture to the next. A few years ago I constrained myself to stay in my current fenced in field at work and it turned out to be a great decision. I had to laugh as I read your post. When I shared it with my wife she laughed harder.

The Suby decision is a complex one for me. The maintenance and associated joy or hassles that come with it is only element of the consideration. And I certainly understand that my maintenance issues aren't magically cured by the Suby transplant. Honestly I'm on the fence. I am lured by some of the benefits. Perhaps I am a bit like Tom who's car always seems to be in a perpetual stage of upgrade. I like the idea of doing something different, changing things up. However, as eloquently described, my pasture is pretty green.

I have been thinking quite a bit about my Beck. I have only one stall in the stable for such a toy. I have been blessed but can't afford my Singer Porsche dream ride. I have been looking at other more "practical" cars (like a newer 911). However I am not sure I will get as much joy out of it as I do out of my current impractical little car. I have to mull this one over for a few weeks. When the Iowa driving season comes to its freezing conclusion I will decide.

IMHO,  The old car impracticality is a huge part of the draw.  Anybody can buy and drive a new car if their checkbook is fat enough. It takes something more to own, maintain, and operate a handbuilt car. 

I admire the heck out of all of you who build and/or maintain your cars.

The Speedster is my first really cool car. My high school years were spent driving the hand me down family Buick (while I road around in my friend's hot rods with envy), followed by a list of uninspiring cars that I owned through college and raising my first two boys (I did enjoy my Sebring convertible in the mid-90's, though).

I finally got to a point to where I felt that I could splurge on a toy third car.

I had every intention of getting my hands dirty and learning (being no stranger to DIY at home).

I knew how to change oil, but learned about adjusting valves, replacing failed valve cover gaskets, replacing a failed rear brake caliper, replacing a failed wheel bearing, bleeding brakes, etc., etc., etc. and, the end of the day, found that I have no love (and little aptitude) for working on cars.

Fortunately, I started with a Beck, have Carey, and live 3.5 hours from Bremen. Unfortunately, I'm an engineer who can't leave well enough alone and have no reverence for Dr. Porsche. I love the design, but have reegineered the heat, brakes, clutch, shifter, shift linkage, lighting, turn signals, side curtains, and, finally, the powertrain. Honestly, I think that Dr. Porsche would approve.

Thankfully, I have Carey to bring my ideas to reality.

Everybody is different. I love the car, but quite like pushing the state of the art and making it a better car. Some of my ideas have been adopted into production Becks.

It's a big tent.
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Tom Blankinship posted:

... It's a big tent.
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Yes it is. 

Good story. 

In my books on a new build it makes sense to consider any and all power plants.  

I made a list of factors pros and cons of each engine platform. 

Hence on my new build I tried to make some assumptions going forward 10 years.   i.e.: will I still be able to get an A/C mechanic and parts.  Would a P engine be worth the investment .... what about maintenance costs...

I tried to stay away from P parts except 

Then will a Subie engine with ECU non modified be able to be available for another 10 years and the answer in my books is I would think yes.  

Maintenance cost is an issue but then weighing all the factors there are a lot less temperamental issues.  

Instead of valves you get to get 60 feet of hoses clamps, rads etc. 

Benefits, of a watercooled, without a doubt, the torque curve is much more pleasant.

Once built to handle a watercooled plant, with the frame of an IM, it could be fitted with another engine should something better come along in the future, but then who knows it might be used to push daisies for both of us in that amount of time... Not.. just kidding.  

Thanks for listening. 

 

Our "Dear Leader" wrote: 'IMHO,  The old car impracticality is a huge part of the draw.  Anybody can buy and drive a new car if their checkbook is fat enough. It takes something more to own, maintain, and operate a handbuilt car. '

Love it.  In fact, I love that so much I'm gonna print it (in a nice font) and hang it on my shop wall so I can look at it when I'm rebuilding my Dells.  It will hang right next to the picture I always had in my office and now in my shop - Welcome to:

Like Tom went from AC to Subaru over the winter. Unlike Tom I went for a new build which was my plan when I bought my car back in 2012. I wanted to find a well sorted car that I could learn what I liked and didn't. Little did I know then that the madness is much more of sickness. Each winter it would go back to Bremen and have a tweak or two. While I loved the AC Raby engine the ease of use of the Suby really got me. I ordered my new ride in December and took delivery Fathers day weekend and have not looked back once. It really was my dream build and checked every box on my list. Again it is all personal choice so do what makes YOU happy. 

Who sells the CF rain hats?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com...retor-rain-hats.html

Carey Hines @chines1 made them for me. 

Joe, I came to the same conclusions after I had bought my A/C car and drove it for 5 years ... 

I followed your build and it turned out really nice. Truth be told, you'll change something again.... lol    Ray