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Kelly, once again, Stan has taken a big, confusing problem, done a well-organized analysis, and put together a cogent plan for how to proceed. You should thank him for doing that. It must have taken some time, but he made it look easy.

I will add this, though:

"...My timing light does jump around a bit..."

Bingo. Until you fix that, you can mess with the carbs all day and probably not get anywhere. If you're lucky, that may be all you have to fix, which is cool because of all the stuff on Stan's list of things to monkey with, that's the easiest and cheapest one.

That 'jumping around' is what tipped me off that my issues were in the dizzy. At idle, my timing mark was fairly stable, sort of. At max advance (about 3000 rpm) my timing mark was fairly stable, sort of.

Between idle and about 2500, there was so much 'scatter' that the timing mark just plain disappeared. This meant that on one turn of the crank there would be some amount of spark advance, but the next time around the advance was something different. There's no way any engine can run well with inconsistent spark like that.

Fiddling with carbs, people tear their hair out trying to get a smooth transition between the idle jets and the main jets. Volumes have been written on the subject - some of which are even worth reading. But this is just the rev range where my dizzy was going nuts, and driving me nuts in the process. How many 'Weber' problems are caused by this? What is the sound of one hand clapping?

By the way, the Magnaspark is also made in China - but somehow CB Performance has come up with a design that produces a much more consistent spark than the Chinese Bosch clones and is also consistent from one unit to the next, judging from user reports.

It's very easy to install. Line up the old dizzy's rotor on number one cylinder at TDC, undo one bolt to pull the dizzy out, drop in the new one lined up the same way, and done. You still have to set your timing again, but that will be a lot easier when you can actually see the timing mark.

Also, Stan has linked to the 'deluxe' kit that includes CB's fancy coil. You can get the dizzy with just their wires (which you WILL need) for $175 and use your existing coil. That's what I did and it works just fine.

 

Last edited by Sacto Mitch

Stan, you nailed it. A cogent plan to proceed. Do ALL of it or don't bother.

Since I had a hand in Tom Dewalt's Green Coupe debacle, I have a couple things to say. His was also a 2332 like Kelly's, and we'd all agree most probably the same exact engine from the same builder, since the two cars arrived east on the same truck.

These heads have small round ports. So I agree, head/manifold junction should be checked, but maybe not as big of an issue as other heads. Manifolds that are ported and welded and have a very small gasket area. These have a nice big area for gaskets. I have repeatedly stated that the thick CB gaskets are junk and squish out but nobody either agrees or bothers to back me up, except Gordon. I'd start there, right after the spark is sorted like Stan says.

I firmly believe that the right side Weber on Kelly's car is either defective OR has a twisted shaft. Why do I think this? Widely different idle air draw that is not influenced by bypass screws. Only way to tell is to take them off, check them, and either swap them left to right or install them both on another engine. 

I'm game for a carb rebuild/setup over the winter. Let me know, Kelly.

 

 

Magnaspark distributor only is $150 right now. The kit with their coil, dizzy, and wires is less than $200 on sale now:

http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2000.htm

A set of new plugs and I'd say ignition is covered.

In addition to all Stan's points above, move the fuel pump out of the engine compartment and put it under the tank where it belongs. And clean up that lovely JPS wiring.........

Or drop it off at my house for a couple weeks.

Last edited by DannyP

Stan, You gave a lot here, and I can reply to most.

A big Type 1 is a finicky beast for a variety of reasons. I think you are experiencing the results of several of them. If I understand you correctly-- you catch glimpses of what you think the car is capable of, but are too often left wanting.

I have no idea who built your engine or what heads and cam it's got, but what we know about what is bolted on seems to be at least as important as what we don't know about what's inside (at least as far as it pertains to your complaints). Car from JPS, motor from GEM.  Details as listed on spec sheet: CB pent roof case, full flowed, 84 crank, filled behind #3, Scat 84 crank, nitrided chevy bearings, H beam Chevy rods, CB straight cut gears, Scat lifters, Engle 110 cam, clearanced for crank, Scat 8 dowel lightened flywheel, Scat chromaloy head studs, Mahle 94 pistons, CB 044 heads 4-x35.5 single spring, Manton push rods, Scat 1.1 rockers, 009 dist had a Compu-fire that failed, Petronix now, Kennedy 1500 lb pressure plate, fully balanced (blue-printed, he said)

If this were mine, I'd start with the known problem (you have a lot of spark scatter), and only go forward after that is resolved. I've had nothing but bad luck with Pertonix modules, and would change that out before doing anything else. I've not had a bunch of bad luck with the 009 copies-- but I never tried super hard to make one work, as they are known to be suspect. It seems like you agree, when you say:

El Frazoo posted:

 Not averse to trying, but have no clear advice on how to proceed.  Magnaspark??  I'd do that too, need to study up on what to buy.  Any CLEAR recommendations for what to buy and where to do so would be much appreciated.

I would submit that several people with personal experience have recommended the Magnaspark distributor from CB Performance very clearly and specifically. It's $226, and comes as a kit with a nice coil and wires. There's nothing to program (like crank-fire or the CB Black Box), and swapping a distributor is about as easy a task as you're going to find. This one is "plug and play". You'll need a timing light, but it sounds like you have one. I do indeed have said light, even know how to use it. Like the plug and play idea.

Once you have the spark sorted, I'd turn to fuel. As many problems as you've experienced, I'd start at the beginning. 

I wouldn't start with the carburetors-- I'd start with the intake manifolds. If you've never had them off, I can almost guarantee you've got a vacuum leak at the intake manifold/head junction on one or both heads. There's a lot of weight cantilevered out on two little studs, and they tend to loosen up with the vibration and heat/cool cycles. Couple that with how difficult ported heads are on intake gaskets, and I'd bet you are leaking between the runners, or to atmosphere, or both. This is advice born of experience-- if your engine has ever backfired, they're leaking.Been here, done that. Had a very bad situation here a while back.  Now good.

Fixing that means being a contortionist. you'll need to take the entire intake system off, then remove the manifolds. The gasket will stick to the heads, almost assuredly. You'll have to stuff rags into the intake ports to keep crap from falling into them, and then carefully scrape the gaskets from the heads. You may need to remove a rear wheel and some of the surround tin to do this. It's not easy. Again been here, done that, not as bad as you make it sound. Actually prefer to lift manifold and carb as unit as only two nuts to deal with vs four per side hard to reach if just lift carbs. Said  manifold/engine nuts easily reached w ratchet and wobbly extension -- great invention, that. Plus you get to inspect that difficult junction for trouble.  nd I do note that the ports in manifold and ports in carbs are not the same shape/size exactly. So there is a step at this inetrface -- to what consequence, I have no idea.

Once clean, you'll probably have to make or modify your own intake gaskets, because the heads are likely ported, so the intake runner holes in stock ones will be too small. You'll probably want to make sure the intake manifold flanges are flat as well. Most guys lay a piece of sandpaper face up on a piece of glass, and move the manifold across it in a figure 8. You're out of luck on the head side, beyond making sure it's clean. I coat my gaskets with Never-Seize for the next time I have to do it. I also use special shouldered intake nuts that take a 10 mm socket on the studs. These are not hardware that can be purchased at Ace or Fastenal (they come from VW specific places. I got mine from a guy on TheSamba). These nuts from Gene Berg are something I'd like to try-- 10 mm hex head, peened to be lock-nuts (without plastic inserts) And angain, been here, done that. Checked flatness as best I could, all jake I think. use chapstick as gasket lubricant, and a can of never sieze  is always near by. Got the 10 mm nuts, no prob.  Easy peasy. Also, bought gaskets that worked fine.

Only then would I turn to the top of the intake, and start worrying about the carbs. Where I am currently.

It seems like you've got a good set of carbs, but you don't trust them. I know it runs counter to your way of doing things-- but honestly, if I had as many issues as you, I'd send my carbs out to a "carb whisperer". Everybody used to talk about Art Thraen as the go-to carb guy. I sent many sets out to him. I stayed in his house a few times. Art is my friend. Here is a secret-- Art didn't do carbs himself since about 2000 or so, maybe longer ago. He trained a guy who worked for him to be the carb guy, and Dave (the guy) has been doing them every day for many, many years. Art sold the shop to Justin McCallister, but Dave is still there. The shop is called Blackline Racing, and they do fantastic work. Hmmm . . . interesting.  Do they bench test? Danny thinks maybe a slight bend in a throttle shaft.  Hmmm . . .  hard to spot, but maybe.

... but they aren't doing anything that Danny hasn't offered to you. I'm 100% sure that if you sent Danny your carbs, he'd go through them with a fine-tooth comb, rebuild them, set them up correctly, bolt them to an engine (probably his), set the mixture screws and air-bleeds, and get them back to you in a trustworthy state. After that, you'd still need to set your linkage up correctly, but that's something Cory can help you with in his driveway.I think i am cool w/ linkage balance, have my snail, get the picture. I have also done a couple of complete tear downs, clean and reassemble.  Danny did his thing w tweaking in May, things much improved.  However, there are two issues: we spoke about spark, and maybe $225 gets me past trouble there. And the air correction needle valve has no effect on the fine balance at idle between throats on one carb. All of these have been and are currently set closed.

That's my advice. I'd either do all of it, or none of it. The "shotgun and hope" approach has not served you well so far, and I sense you'd like to be done with this for a while. This is a way you can get it running as well as possible. Amen brother, say "Amen" and praise the Lord.  As to "as well as possible" from prior reports over the years,the only way to do that would appear to be to take it to Raby, or similar, mount it up on a dyno  and O2 sensor and thoroughly tweak every appropriate thing. Spend lots of $$.  And have it run great for a few months -- maybe..

Hope so.  All hands seem to be in agreement.  Confusing about lineage here.  Most suppliers call this a CP Perf item. One details says this is actually manufactured by API, or some such.  Pictures of stuff, logo, etc all identical.  Does CB just order these things in from wherever with their logo printed on the front, and resell them, or do they in fact do something to them to make them truly CB products?  Do they sell these "CB" items to other parts shops, who then resell them under the CB name.  Does any of this really matter?  One Magna Spark II is the same thing as any other??

And what about the coil that comes with?  What is special about it? Anything??

I really don't know who makes the Magnaspark. I thought it was a CB item.

It doesn't really matter, does it? A+t least half a dozen guys have recommended it, so, good enough for me. Really makes the $160 I spent in 2007-8 a bargain for my Megajolt setup. Yep, all of it, machining included.

As to the manifold/head interface, I'm a bit confused. Manifolds large and intake ports small, or the other way round?

I agree with Stan, Kelly - That was a good purchase for you.

I have an original Magna Spark - nothing about it is easily adjustable....It is the same as a 009, just a newer manufactured disti case with electronic internals, but then I bought it in 1997 or 98 so that was pretty good back then.

The coil looks similar, just updated.  Mine came with an HEI coil of about 60K volts, but it is physically 4X the size of what is shown with the MS II version and I mounted it on the inner wheel well liner, not on the fan shroud near the heat, so I needed to fab a slightly longer coil to disti wire.  

Mine also didn't come with an HEI distributor cap or rotor so I ended up retrofitting those, as well as some HEI spark plug wires - You get them automatically in the kit.  All of that adds up to one really good, easily adjustable ignition system.  

El Frazoo posted:

Hope so.  All hands seem to be in agreement.  Confusing about lineage here.  Most suppliers call this a CP Perf item. One details says this is actually manufactured by API, or some such.  Pictures of stuff, logo, etc all identical.  Does CB just order these things in from wherever with their logo printed on the front, and resell them, or do they in fact do something to them to make them truly CB products?  Do they sell these "CB" items to other parts shops, who then resell them under the CB name.  Does any of this really matter?  One Magna Spark II is the same thing as any other??

And what about the coil that comes with?  What is special about it? Anything??

From what I understand the CB Magnaspark is a CB Performance designed product. The coil is a dry pack coil as opposed to an oil filled coil with a very hot and very consistent spark.

@Pat Downs

Last edited by Robert M

All well and good info -- EXCEPT -- none to be found. Lots of people list them mostly as a CB product, but nobody has them and nobody, espy CB,  knows when they might get them.  So I am thinking there is a manufacturer somewhere (China??) that makes this to the CB spec, prints the CB logo on the packaging, and that's how it plays.  Lots of Pertronix units, presented as same/similar.  Buzz here is: uh-uh, not so.  ALso MSD can do the deed along w magic red box for like 600 smackers or so.

So if Chinese factory, import tariff bull ****??

Groan.

El Frazoo posted:

OK, here is my conclusion: there are none of these items for sale in the US, or anywhere, right now.  all say "Out of stock"  My suspicions about trade tariffs is starting to sound accurate.  So I wait . . .

 

You may well be right, Señor Frazoo. I tried ordering a cap and rotor for the Magnaspark from CBP (which you'd think they'd have a good stock of) and same deal.

I HAVE heard that this dizzy was originally a GM (or Ford?) design, so I wonder if other caps and rotors would fit. Anyone know?

 

 

Spoke to CBP today and here's their story.

Factory has 'moved their location' and new stock is at least a few months out.

They WERE able to ship me a new cap and rotor, though, even though those are shown as out of stock on their web page. They said they've got only a limited supply on hand, so maybe they want to limit shipping to verified individual customers so that some other business doesn't order their whole supply?

They also said the Pertronix (billet) cap and rotor would fit, as well as the MSD (all of which look like the same unit).

Was reading a thread on the Samba that confirmed these dizzys were also used in some GM cars (and Ford, too, surprisingly) and that the caps and rotors are available at NAPA if you know what to order.

 

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