Berg-5 Front Mount

Thanks for the update, Mike.

Yes, the added noise of the metal-to-metal mount can be annoying, but seems to be the price of admission. For me, the advantages of the five-speed in everyday driving are worth it.

Of course, my VS has zero sound deadening installed. I'd guess some dynamat would help a lot.

@Anthony has apparently had problems with the rubber mounts and advises against using them.

Please advise how this works out for you and how the change affects noise.

Being in Michigan, it has been 5 months since I drove it with the aluminum in the mount.  But, when I drive it I may be able to notice a difference.

I didn't use Dynamat.  I used a brush on sound deadening material.

@Sacto Mitch Mitch, I have driven a few miles with the rubber mounts back in and it seems like the noise and vibration are about the same as with the 4-speed.  I don't really notice either.

In my quest to determine a way to reinstall the rubber bits without removing the engine and transmission,  I spent many hours searching for rubber mounts that had female threads on one side.  With the female threads on one side, I thought I wouldn't have to move the engine and transmission back.

I was unable to find some the same 2" diameter as the original rubber pieces.  I did find and bought some that are 2 1/2" diameter but they have 3/8' coarse threads instead of the original piece fine threads.  Being larger diameter they may be less prone to failure.  They come with different shear resistance values.  I selected a middle value thinking that a lower value might be more likely to fail and a higher value might have more vibration.

Because of the thread difference, I installed the original rubber mounts.  If they fail I probably will change the threads on the steel arms and use the larger rubber mounts.

Thanks for the update, Mike.

Good to hear it's working so far. Let us know how it is down the road.

Did you find the worst noise with the direct metal mount was on trailing throttle?

@Sacto Mitch, I am not sure about the trailing throttle thing.  Maybe.  It has been more than 5 months since I drove with the aluminum mount.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

Thanks for the update, Mike.

Good to hear it's working so far. Let us know how it is down the road.

Did you find the worst noise with the direct metal mount was on trailing throttle?

 

The VW type 1-3 transaxle is always noisier on deceleration when coupled with a more powerful engine, Mitch. Although we can beef it to stand up to more power under acceleration, the stock transaxle is designed to deal with the deceleration thrust loads of a 40-60 hp engine and there is no way (short of a whole new trans re-configuration) to compensate for this when rebuilding.

Al, I noticed from the beginning (even with my old 4-speed) that the gearbox didn't sound nearly as happy on trailing throttle as a modern car would, so I changed how I drive a little.

Coasting up to a stop, I'll usually pop it into neutral and use the brakes, rather than rely on engine braking to slow down. This just 'feels' better, especially at higher revs. And brake pads are cheaper than a rebuild.

To me, it's just another example of how important it is to listen to these cars as you drive them.

Al...I too noticed that "Rhonda" was noisy on decell. Perhaps it's because the car is shorter and more open than a stock VW. It was that way from the beginning and never got any worse so I just thought it was normal. I think we get more noise transfer in these bodies too. It will be interesting to see if the Suby 5 sp I'm getting in my Spyder will be noisy as well..............Bruce

@Sacto Mitch, @aircooled - I asked about this with my mechanic friend Don (who taught me a lot of what I know today about the VW performance world, may he RIP) because of the extra noise on deceleration even in my from the factory sound-proofed (with stock interior) '72 Beetle back around 1977. It is what it is and we live with it. It is normal, Bruce, and you're right- I'm sure our cars (being shorter, open and made of fiberglass) don't help it any! Being way newer/ built to survive substantially more power and more technologically advanced, it will be interesting to hear your comments about the Subaru trans.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 ...To me, it's just another example of how important it is to listen to these cars as you drive them.

 

Words of wisdom, dude. And I think you're right about throwing it into neutral and coasting to a stop much of the time (when, of course, you're not tearin' it up!) Brakes are so much cheaper (and easier!) than a trans rebuild.

All of my speedsters have had the same noise on deceleration.  It's that much more annoying when the top is up.  

These cars are basically bare bones, so you hear more noises than normal.

Bob...I noticed that it was more with the top up too. Close to being annoying actually !

Fortunately, I only had the top up when going to a cars n coffee in early morning when it was 48 F here in SoCal in one of our Winter freezes.  Ha ha   It's still cold no matter what at 70mph though.......Bruce

The tranny and clutch on a type-I  for sure is noisier.  I can concur with that one on my older IM it was noticeable and I probably had one of the better rebuilt trannies at the time as far as IM would say. 

My subie tranny is much quieter I even added Archoil to the Dyno 80-90W tranny fluid to get it even more quiet.  It seemed to help.   

The more you perfect these things the more OCD you can get.  

One thing I didn't expect was extra noise when I put a suitcase on the rear deck lid rack. I can now get three different noises ....top up, top down and top down with suitcase installed. Who woulda thunk ? 

I wonder if your just hearing wind resistance off the suitcase.   

I always thought the rear racks were cool looking but was always afraid to either overload the engine lid or interrupt the cooling of my Acooled engine. 

IaM-Ray posted:

I wonder if your just hearing wind resistance off the suitcase.   

I always thought the rear racks were cool looking but was always afraid to either overload the engine lid or interrupt the cooling of my Acooled engine. 

It's definitely engine noise...clatter clatter etc. 

I hear what you are saying about the rack load. I will be careful and keep an eye on things heading to Carlisle. 

David...That there was funny !!   Also I got to thinking about how much noise straight cut gears make. I live on the corner of a 4 way stop intersection and hear gear whine from straight cut gears when these cars take off from the stop all the time. heck, on a couple, I can tell you what kind of car it is by the sound sometimes. Anyway, I looked at the gear stack for my Suby transaxle and thank was thankful to not see any......Bruce

Oops....Yes there is but it's reverse.....Bruce

I learn something new every day here: never would have thought that you could hurt a transmission by coupling it to a bigger engine and then leaving it in gear when you get off the gas. 

Thanks, @ALB!

Bruce, your Spyder is going to be a bit noisier than any Speedster(unless the Subaru is much quieter) because the engine is right behind your head. I know this.

Trans noise is a fact of life with old VWs. Add in the stiffer motorsport mounts or solid mounts(PBS rear/tailshaft mount is solid) and you'll be hearing some noise.

David, I think(and others as well) that you'll get MORE air into the engine when you have luggage back there. Think about how the air will be forced to speed up as it goes between the engine lid and the suitcase. Also, I'll bet the engine noises are bouncing off the luggage and making their way to your ears.

Cheers.

The subie engine IMO is quieter and the exhaust note is not quite the same as an Acooled but can be made to sound close to the Acooled.  @Joe Fortino is an example of an engine that sound very close... albeit,  it is too loud for my comfort.  

Peter Venuti's IM/Suby sounds identical to a VW IMHO. I haven't really paid attention to Joe's car but will if he comes this year.

Meh.

Peter’s suby sounds like a suby.   The firing order is different than a vw aircooled (almost a mirror image) and they sound different.

I hear Suby cars all the time around here and don’t pay much attention (other than that they are always very quick).  When we were in Mexico in March there were a bunch of old Beetle sedans and a BIG bunch of VW dune buggies tooling around and they all sound just like my car - like snap the neck to see what’s coming, sound and not the sound of a Subaru.  Way less valve noise on a Suby, but that’s understandable with the overhead cam - there is no valve gap to make noise.

Google “1970 VW firing order” and then “2010 Subaru firing order” and carefully look at the differences in cylinder numbering and firing order and you’ll see the difference, but there is a distinct yet subtle difference in the sound of both.

edsnova posted:

I learn something new every day here: never would have thought that you could hurt a transmission by coupling it to a bigger engine and then leaving it in gear when you get off the gas. 

Thanks, @ALB!

I don't know how much or what kind of damage it does, but I know who to ask. I'll let you know what I find out after the weekend...

Different exhaust sounds with different firing orders ? Hmmm...I'll have to check that out.  Lets see, a VW is 1432 and a Suby is 1342....Right off the bat, the headers are going to be configured different. If you had  two each in-line 4 cyl engines, one with 1342 and the other with 1432 firing orders, the 2-in-to 1 header out of the cylinder heads  would be drastically different.  Could you, or would you, hear the difference of the different firing orders ?  How would the sound be different sounding coming out of two flat/four cylinder engines with different firing order and, of course, having different 2-into-1 headers as well ?   This sounds like a "Drive me nuts" thought

This kind of stuff in the past is probably how I ended up wearing hearing aids....Bruce

Gordon Nichols posted:

Meh.

Peter’s suby sounds like a suby.   The firing order is different than a vw aircooled (almost a mirror image) and they sound different.

aircooled posted:

Different exhaust sounds with different firing orders ? Hmmm...I'll have to check that out.  Lets see, a VW is 1432 and a Suby is 1342....Right off the bat, the headers are going to be configured different.

I'm unconvinced (and you might want to check the Subaru firing order, Bruce. I'm sure it's just a slip of the finger, but everything I check says it's 1/3/2/4).

The firing order of the engines are not different, except for the cylinder designation. Subaru 1/3/2/4 is the same as VW 1/4/3/2. It's easier to see with pictures.

Subaru:VW:

Look at it like this-- they both fire the same way: back left, front left, back right, front right (with front being the flywheel side). The only thing that changes is what you call those cylinders.

They spin the same way and the crank layout is the same-- except for one major advantage for the Subaru. The thing that should get Subaru guys excited is not the water cooling, etc.- it's the two extra main bearings between the crankshaft throws. That engine will easily support a lot more HP than a Type 1-- but then again, the Type 4 has the same thing.

I heard but may be wrong... The exhaust is made to have equal length to extract maximum power but unequal lengths gives you a different engine sound more seemingly close to an Aircooled.    

As to numbering ... in numerology it usually goes 1 to 4 in that order.  

I need coffee///

David Stroud posted:

In a nutshell, the Soob and VW engines fire in the same physical locations on their respective engines in the same order. 

Yes... and they have the same crankshaft arrangement, so everything is identical(ish).

I temporarily retract my statement that Stan just quoted me on. I'm still confused. 

Wasn't wearing baseball gloves while typing. Just plain memorized the firing order wrong.  Yup, I see now that it's just a number game. I didn't consider the cylinder numbering system is also different. Taking that into consideration I will be surprised if I can tell the difference in the sound.  It seems to me that the exhaust system would have more influence on the sound. When I think of it, the number of exhaust valves and the exhaust porting could have some influence too. I guess I'll just have to listen to  the difference sometime when there is one of each side by side with similar exhaust systems.  

 I remember being on a old 150 ft yacht with one huge 6 cylinder engine. That engine was considered a high speed diesel and maxed out at 1200 rpm. At idle it was so slow that you could hear each cylinder fire. Another unique thing wast ah you could do a complete valve grind job on it with out ever shutting down the engine. I think it was made in Germany with a brand name of Harneschsfer or something similar.

You're right Stan, those 5 main bearings had significant influence on my decision to go with Subaru. The 6 cylinder version has 7 mains yet the engine is only 1.5 " longer. That's pretty amazing !............Bruce

I'll submit this for clarification. Standing at the back of the Speedster looking forward with a Type 1 engine installed the firing order will be:

2 o'clock, 7 o'clock, 11 o'clock and 5 o'clock. 

With a Soob installed the firing order will be:

2 o'clock, 5 o'clock, 11 o'clock and 7 o'clock.

I am not sure what time it is but honestly the sound of the 4 aircooled is more enticing but not as much as the whine of the 6 cylinder.  Joe's is the closest Subie I have heard to an aircooled.  

Carey did a bang up job on that one. 

Damn daylight savings time!  

Firing orders always start with number 1.

The Subaru number 1 is the VW number 4 and vise versa. Just to add to the confusion 2 and 3 are the same. 

The firing orders are the same. 

To use the “clock” analogy: the VW starts at 1:00, then fires 7:00, 11:00, 5:00 respectively. Subaru starts at 7:00, then fires 11:00, 5:00, 1:00 respectively. It’s the same order, the Subaru is just starts one position ahead.

If you start with 11pm and go backwards, the sequence is the same for both. Start with any o-clock position and go backwards it's the same both. A straight 8 engine with what is called a 4-4 type crank is fun to play with the firing order-s. That crank is two 4 cylinder cranks "welded" end to end, with one being held 90 degrees in rotation to the other. The firing order is pretty much dictated by the crankshaft configuration (that 90 degrees stuff mentioned above). But we have to assign cylinder numbers first, before we can describe the firing order sequence. Once that's done we describe the firing order by cylinder numbers. You could, if you wanted, create a new firing order for your car just by re-numbering your cylinders differently .   Kinda fun stuff......Bruce

Some more confusion:

We, being human and logical, need a firing order to 'start' somewhere.

But the engine doesn't care. The cylinders fire in a continuous sequence which has no starting point. What point on a circle is the 'starting point'?

The sequence for the Subie and the VW are the same.

Interesting that Subie engineers, with all of their computers, came to the same conclusions about the best crank geometry and firing order as VW engineers did in 1930.

The laws of physics don't change much over time.

Nah ... they copied German engineering 

Corecto Sacto !!  By virtue of the crank configuration (keeping in mind that there are more than one) firing order is determined mechanically. Numbers are assigned,  counted and recorded so we can keep track of it......Bruce

aircooled posted:

Corecto Sacto !!  By virtue of the crank configuration (keeping in mind that there are more than one) firing order is determined mechanically. Numbers are assigned,  counted and recorded so we can keep track of it......Bruce

All true-- but to be clear, there really isn't any other way to lay out a crankshaft in a flat-4 engine. Rod throws are going to have to be 180* apart side to side and front to back, or the engine will be a paint shaker.

A flat-4 runs much more smoothly than an inline-4, which is why no balance shafts, etc. are required, and we can run 4-cyl engines up to 3L.

With the crank layout everybody uses, the firing order is baked in the cake.

I'd like to see a Subaru engine open next to a Type 4. The intake and exhaust port layouts on those two look very similar. I wonder if the Subie engineers didn't start with a bus engine and just add OHC motorcycle heads and a water jacket. 

btw: great thread drift on this one, guys.