Best Approach for 140 Ponies?

Suppose I want 140 HP. No more, and not less than say 130. That's at the crank, with the fan connected. What would be the best way to go, in terms of cost and reliability? And about how much should I expect to spend for a turnkey?

I'm leaning toward Type IV, but for what it would cost to add a gas-powered heater, I could get EFI on a Type I.

Again, please limit the discussion to 140 HP air-cooled VW engines. I don't wanna hear about your 180 or 220 HP monster, turbo, suby or small block chevy. Don't ask me why.

I appreciate all of your input. Thanks!

Bruce

Well, I guess I'll use my motor as an example, since I have somewhere between 140 and 150 hp.
2110 (82 x 90.5)
9:1 compression
Weber 44s (36 vents)
Web 86b cam
044 heads (40 x 35.5 valves, but a very good port and polish)
1.3 Pauter rockers
1 1/58 merged custom exhaust with magnaflow muffler.
Custom 1 5/8" heater boxes
Gene Berg 3 quart sump with remote oil filter.
I decided not to go with large valve heads because I wanted to have a lot of low end torque and still be able to zing up to 6500.
Ron

I have several used gas heaters....cost way less than EFI.

I can get you 130 ponies out of a 2056, or 145 EASILY from a detuned 2270.

Simple, and easy and looks factory!

If you want to go TI, build a 2165 and be conservative, it will still make 130 ponies. I can hook you up there as well, I have alot of TI recipes collecting dust that need to come out of hibernation!

I think Jake is right there with figuring about 130 hp with a 2276.
You can get big hp #'s out of an engine it's just going to be a bear to drive on the street. I'd say an honest guess for my 2110 is about 120hp. I know I can wring more out of it but it's so easy to drive I'd rather keep the cam ect. on the mild side. I'd also say a 2110 is a good size motor that won't give too many headaches down the road. I hear there is a new Al case coming out from CB performance that will enable a 86mm crank to drop right in. The more square the engine gets the more streetable it will be. If I had to do it again I'd either go type four or the new Al case with the 86 crank while using 90.5 pc's.

J-P

A 2,110 type 1 (82mmx90.5mm) with 8.5 to 9.0 compression, CB's CNC round port 044 heads with 42in/37.5ex valves, Web Cam 86b cam, 1 5/8" merged exhaust with 2 1/2" muffler, dual Weber 44 IDF's, and Bosch 009 distributor will make 150 BHP, have great torque, and should run on 91 octane unleaded premium with no problems. The CB race crank, light flywheel, and race rods are quality parts for the innards.

I would also use a 12.5 flywheel, KP stage 1 clutch, and a Pertronix "Ignitor II". If you're going to rev the engine past 5,500 RPM a Gene Berg welded/balanced fan is also a good idea.

JP, that crank many drop in without case clearances (maybe), but what about crank/cam clearance?
Ron

I think the cam is dropped .100 in the case for clearance. Regardless, it should definitely have the red-line set by professionals.

Jean-Paul, my ex-2,110 with 170 BHP is a very pleasant driving street engine; it just climbs up on the power when you put your foot in it.

Ron, very few aftermarket VW engine cases are available with a .100" cam centerline drop.

George, I was replying to JP's comment about CB's new case that can accept an 86mm crank. That case has a .100 cam drop and that prevents the interference with the cam. If I remember correctly, that is the case you are using isn't it? Of course, when you got it, it wasn't available yet, but I gather it is now.

Bruce, from what I have gathered, you can get 140hp out of almost any engine if you have enough cam, and the right heads, etc. The larger the engine, the less you need 'performance parts' to get 140hp. You can also tailor where the HP peaks, and where the torque is with the cam and heads, and length of stroke. Your best bet is to set a budget, and set the goals for what you want the engine to do. Then talk to a few engine builders and see what they suggest. Perhaps Pat at CB, Scat, Jason at VW Paradise, Darrin here in Vancouver, etc.

Honestly I don't believe that a 2110 will make 170hp, I think those numbers are optomistic. I'm sure your motor felt peppy George but I really don't feel you got an accurate reading from the dyno. I can believe a readout of 150 from a heavily tweeked engine but not 170. Don't take this as a slam George but I think 170hp from a carbed 2.1 liter with only eight valves is optimistic at best. Hell the Suburu 2.5 liter motor only gets 150 or so. It might be possible to get those #'s but I'm sure you didn't pay the fifteen G's it would take to get that motor there. Don't take it personally, it's just my opinion nothing more, I could be wrong.

Anyway to make sure you get 140 all day long, go big with the motor and keep the cam a little on the tame side for a nice torquey street car. As far as the 86 stroker, I'm sure the cam would have to be clearanced a little but I can recall the conversations about this new case having a cam drop to reduce, minimize the grinding. Getting the motor "square" will make for a fun powerplant.

J-P

Jean-Paul, 170 BHP from a 2,110 is less than 85 BHP per liter and is easily doable with the right cam, heads, exhaust, and dual 48mm Webers. For comparison, many performance 2,276 engines make 190 to 200 BHP.

Ron, my 2,387's engine case is a Precision Alloy TF-1, not a CB.

Jean-Paul, 170 BHP from a 2,110 is less than 85 BHP per liter and is easily doable with the right cam, heads, exhaust, and dual 48mm Webers. For comparison, many performance 2,276 engines make 190 to 200 BHP.

Ron, my 2,387's engine case is a Precision Alloy TF-1, not a CB.

I have built 1800cc TIV engines that made 170.....Class limited. BUT running race gas, and every trick known to man.

Most I have ever gotten from a 2110 was 155 BHP, it was a mild 8.5:1 engine. My least favorite combo for a TI stroker, is a 2110......

If you want 140ponies from an engine thats just 75cc larger than stock, and runs cooler than stock- GO TIV...... a TI will NEVER, and I REPEAT NEVER do that. Idles at 1K rom smooth as silk and pulls to 6500 RPM instantly.... will cruise at 105 MPH all day long and get 25+MPG..... I do them everyday.

Sorry George, I don't buy it. I picked up a pretty neat VW engine guide magazine that has a dyno pull for fourty different engine combos. They start with a stock 1600 and go up to a 2332. The highest #'s they pulled for the 2332 with a muffler and fan belt showed 183hp. Now closer to the 2110 they showed a 2165 (78*94) making 131.95 hp while using a 1 5/8th exhaust, dual 48 IDA Webers, Engle FK-8 cam with 1.4 ratio rockers (298 duration, .534 lift), 8.5 compression, Dave Kawell hand ported CB Eliminator 2000 heads with 37/42 valves, all this is set to 32 deg. advance and jetted to an O2 sensor.

Here are the #'s...
RPM HP
3000...85.26
3500...99.06
4000...120
4500...127.89
5000...131.74
5500...131.54
6000...131.95

And this combo is using a cam that sacrafices a good idle to make #'s like these.

I'm sorry George, whovever told you a 2110 would make #'s in the 170's without some serious work (like adding eight more valves) was not giving you the full story.

J-P

JP, was the hp reading at the flywheel or at the rear wheels? I'm fairly sure that George is talking 'flywheel' hp. There can be a real difference between the two and I haven't seen or heard of an accurate way of comparing the two hp readings. I know that CB dynos their 2165 out at 170 hp, but I don't know how good of a daily driver it would be (and how trouble free it would be).
Ron

I was just wondering about the readings for hp at the flywheel vs. the readings at the wheels. I would imagine there is a good drop at the wheels. For some comparison dyno tests at the wheels go to :www.vwtrendsweb.com/features/0301vwt_dynoday/. It looks like the average hp output for the "larger" motors was about 150hp to 175hp. The only motors that seemed to make some serious number were the turbo motors, 259 and 281. In the Sept 2003 issue of VW Trends, the cover car claims to be pushing 525ph!? It is a giant Auto-craft motor. OK, and a shameless plug,....my car is on page 84 of the same issue doing a smokey burnout, sorry couldn't resist.

Jean-Paul, I have no idea how accurate CB's dyno is but my 2,110 dyno'd at 155 max BHP with dual 44 IDf's (jetting was too rich), Bosch 009 with points, 8.5 to 1 compression, Web Cam 121/125 cam, CB "Super Mag" ported 044's with 42in/37.5 ex, 1 5/8" merged through a 2 1/2" Magnaflow, and 30 degrees total timming BTDC on 91 octane.

Carbs were changed to 48 IDF's and jetted to 12.6 to 12.7 A/F ratio from idle to redline, a Pertronix was added to the 009, and total advance increased to 32 BTDC. The performance improvement was very noticable all the way from idle to redline; normally you won't even notice a performance improvement unless it excceds 10 BHP.

Dynos vary and magazine articles are comparing disparate engines...

Those figures are for the flywheel hp as all the combos were free standing engines. In one example they got a 2276 to put out 190hp however they noted that the engine may never see 10k before the heads, valve gear needed attention and it was bassically a strip motor. I do think it''s possible but 170 hp from a 2110 is not a street car. It seems like all these high dyno #'s are used to sell engines and parts. Bassically hype. I'd think a 2.3 liter would be in the honest 140hp mark for a street car.

J-P