Best engine for a Speedster is...

I just read all of the ramblings on the "what different engines fit in the speedster?" thread. I don't think the original question was ever answered. I realize that there are as many opinions on engine type as there are speedsters built. Obviously HP=$$, the more you want, the more you pay.

Since the weight of this car is so low, big number cc's are pretty much wasted, unless you are going to put the car on the track and spending countless hours tuning.

I am looking to build my own engine, and would like to know what a good compromise is between a good (reliable) daily driver, and a nice (performance) canyon carver. I am leaning toward a type I 1915 to 2110.

Pros and cons toward either of these engines would be appreciated. Also, performance tips for either or both engines would also be appreciated.

XP_Greg

A 2,110 with Web Cam 86b camshaft, 9.0 to 1 compression, CB Performance CNC ported heads with 42in/37.5 ex valves, 1 5/8" merged exhaust, and dual Weber 44 IDF's built on a CB Performance aluminum case should work very well and not be overstressed.

I have a long term success rate with a 1914 cc engine
full flowed case, welded # 3, external oil cooler, counter weighted crank, 12 lb flywheel and rods balanced as a unit, total seal rings, eagle 110 cam, solid rocker shafts, moly push rods, HD oil pump w/spin on filter, CB big valve ported heads with high rev single springs, Webers with match ported manifolds, Bosch 009 with Pertronix Ignitor ignition and set at 8.5 compression .

I had this 1914 cc combination along with a 3:88 R&P otherwise stock transmission in a 1400lb replica for 5 years it always ran cool with a lot of torque both off the line as well as under acceleration without any problems worth mentioning and it got a consistant 32 mpg .

George's suggestion sounds very close to the motor I had in my 84im. I was very happy with the power and fuel economy of the motor. Everything was kept reasonable and I used quality parts (i.e. Pauter rockers). Still, problems can occur. My builder took it for a test drive (300 miles on it) and seized the motor (thankfully he was driving it and not me-the rear main bearing went).
Ron

Improper end play (should .003) will destroy an engine in a short period of time as you mentioned

Wheres Jake? D-man

Jake will highly recommend a type IV like mine and I'll recommend one too!

If you do not have any sort of core or engine to start with (like I did), then I would suggest going the Type IV route. I have a 2056 TIV, which was not that expensive to build. You can pickup any 914 or later model Bus engine as a core. Jake has kits and all the parts you need to build up a really reliable engine.

If you already have a Type I core, then it would probably be easier to stick with that.

More details on my choices here: speedster.chriskate.net/engine.html

Greg,

I think for a T-1, the 2110's reputation as a solid combo would be my pick. In fact, it is. (I am having a CB 2110 with the new Aluminum Case, H-Rods, and the CNC Round Port Heads with 40 x 35.5 valves built now (For other Specs see Intermeccanica's Site). It's a solid build with great parts. My pick was based on my driving/usage needs. A more aggresive Cam and Heads would probably make it even better for local use. (I am more into the reliability/easy to maintain end of it due to the distances I drive).

There was a great discussion in the Oct-Dec Timeframe about Cam and Head choices for a 2110. I would refer to that and GB/Ron's suggestions. I would also call a couple of builders to gain their perspective. (Pat Downs at CB makes time for questions like this.)

I am not an expert... just a driver/consumer/Oil Change/Adjust the valves guy. I based my pick on Henry's (IM) and Pat's (CB)recommendations and the experience of other 2110 owners on this forum. One size does not fit all though.

Jim

(Not meant as a T-1 T-4 Debate guys. I am just trying to direct his request for T-1 info to prior 2110 discusssions.)

I like the 2165 the most. I like the bore selection and the resulting parts. I would have a person like CB recommend the parts and I would incorporate all of the cooling ideas in the knowledge section in to the build. This is basically the same as your 1915 engine with a little more stroke. It will run great and be a good engine for dissapating heat.

A 2110 will dissipate heat better than a 2165, end of story.

2110-cc with CB 40-mm x 35.5-mm heads, 122/125 Webcam, 911 adjusters, 30-mm oil pump, full-flowed case, counterweighted 82-mm stroker crank, Mallory ignition distributor, etc.. is what I have. It runs very strong. I do have my very own 911 shroud design which is better balanced than those available out there (I engineered my own and I hae almost even temps between all cylinders and I also hae internal vanage as well as I also cool my oil (although I am adding an extra oil cooler with fan since I live in Vegas and I need it). I am happy with it but I am also contemplating building a Type 4 someday but for now, I am planning on one for my 1965 912.

Good luck!

Oh yeah, compression ratio is set at 9.25:1

;^)

Greg,

For a bit of perspective you should look at Bill George's TR Speedster with a Zero Mile SCAT 1915cc in it. I think Bill is very pleased with this engine. Look at his photos and see what you think.

Jim

I agree with Jim. The 2,110 may have a little bit more mid-range torque than the 1915 in normal daily driving, but unless you start a long pull in excess of 4,200 RPM you may never notice the difference in overall power. I believe that the 2,110 would breathe better in the higher revs AND would have just a bit more zap in the mid-range, but, Heck! You can always down-shift the 1915 if you need it and STILL have plenty of rev's left!

I guess it all comes down to economics; if it's not beyond your budget to spring for the 2,110, then do it. If money is an object, then opt for the 1915.

Either way, you'll have a very nice, satisfying power plant in your Speedster/Spyder.

Gordon
One of the "Speedstah guys" from Beaufort

Gordon/ Jim,

I agree with both of you on 1915s and 2110s, but there is one more thing to consider: heat. I have no idea if the point is really even valid any more- but it makes a certain amount of sense to me (intuitively) that the larger the bore size, the more heat the engine will create. This is the conventional wisdom that kept me to a 90.5 bore on the new motor. I'm not sure how valid this really is, but as many heat related problems as most guys have in these cars, I'm taking all the precautions I can. I hope I'm right- I'd hate to be giving up the potential displacement (for my stroke) if I'm not.

Stan:

That's certainly a valid concern, and all I can offer is the experiance I've had with my 2,110 (pretty well documented on this forum, too!)

As I've mentioned, I'm running all OEM German cooling tin on my car, with the exception of Asian Imported (Taiwanese) chromed head covers (bought in a fit of vanity). The biggest problem with them was a very poor fit to the rest of the sheetmetal when assembling them, requiring a LOT of metal massage and/or spacers to make it all fit. Beyond that, I'm running the bigger (1971) doghouse fan shroud and oil cooler, and I've pretty effectively isolated the top of the engine compartment from the bottom with shields and weatherstrip.

Given all that, on a hot (85+F), humid day at sea level, where I live, and running for 30 minutes or more at turnpike speeds, I was watching the oil temp creep up into the 210 - 215F range and getting nervous about it. Admittedly, for a new, tight engine AND keeping my revs up above 3K a lot of the time, that temp range is not all that bad, given the outside ambient temp. I played with different oil types and weights, but didn't see much more than a 5 degree (F) difference - potentially significant, but not enough to please me......

Still, the hotter temps bothered me more than a little, pushing me to installing the full-flow cooling and filter system last Summer (I guess you HAVE to install these things on the hottest days of the Summer to really appreciate them - LOL!) with the expectation that I MIGHT make the coast-to-coast run to Knotts. I have the thermostat set to turn on around 185F to run the cooling fan, and the new cooler keeps everything at 200F or below (per a dipstick thermometer), no matter how hard I hammer it or keep the revs up.

Now....if I had a 1915, would it be working harder for any given instance and dissipating more heat or not?? Beats me, but either way, with a full-flow cooling system sized adequately to dissipate the amount of heat expected, then the oil temps should never get over 200F, maybe less. The real key here is how effective the cooling of the HEADS is set up. For that I rely on three things: (1) Running a complete and working OEM German cooling system, air vanes, thermostat and all, (2) running a smaller diameter, 356 fan pulley to get the fan volume increased slightly at lower engine speeds and (3) keeping the engine revs up around 3K or higher to keep the air flowing at a good rate.

So....I guess, again, it probably doesn't matter which engine you choose, as long as you make provisions to cool BOTH the oil and heads adequately and drive it as an air-cooled engine expects, to maintain the cooling rate.

Guess this is more like 3 cents worth, huh?

Gordon

Gordon always has 3 cents worth... but it's always well thought out and educated from personal experience 3 cents.!

Speedster dudes,
This was great, I hardly had the inclination that I'd get this many constructive comments back. I really appreciate it. Excellent recomendations, and I'll post back progress of the build. Thanks again.

XP_Greg

By the way: John Rowlands, from South Africa, just joined this forum, and he's running a water-cooled, straight-four from a VW Golf in his Speedster (I KNEW it could be done!!!)

He sent me some pictures via-email and the car (and engine) is beautiful. Hope to see pictures posted on here soon.

Gordon

Thats cool Gordon...... I can't wait to see them?? Did he do it himself??

The bigger the motor, the more torque you can have. This makes the car more fun to drive and you can use lower RPM's which would improve longevity. I've seen several speedsters which seemed to run a little on the warm side. My cure was to improve the air intake into the engine compartment with grill into the firewall. It seemed to make a big difference. Dave Greiner- ProformanceMotoring[.com]

I just recently finished re-building the engine for my 914/2L, a HAM/RABY 2270 kit with 9.5:1 massaged 2L heads=AWESOME PERFORMANCE!! I've built and owned many type-1s, most on the performance end of the scale but the type-4 is a different animal. Better cooling and improved oiling is bound to increase overall longevity and the available torque is just plain fun. This thing will idle like a stock motor and then turn up to 7000 r's in no time flat! I think that I've had T-1s that made as much or more overall HP but they were nowhere near as smooth and didn't have as broad a power-band.
I'm sold.

Fred,
I too have a Raby type IV and it rocks ...
....when I decide to sell this speedster somebody is going to be a very happy camper!

Alan

Alan, you're thinking of selling it already!!!
Ron

I built the car while employed at a vocation program. it sat stored for two years and recently bought it. It was also in need of misc. minor repairs to bring it back up to par inclusive of the Gordon N. top flap design....still weighing the options as it is an unique one off speedster.

1600 wiuth one carb will be just fine.

Has to be 2110, had a 1915-no torque....I think you need the torque for the 4 speed, freeway geared tranny. If you had a five speed that would be a different story. I havn't encountered a hill I can't zip up at 70 mph with the 2110, the 1915 was a little bit of a struggle shifting alot. Just my take on it.

J-P

Thanks guys!

Glad you were pleased with the results of your MassIVe Powerplants!

Kudos Jake !

MassIVe grins

In the UK a watercooled Alfa Romeo 1700 flat 4 is a good conversion, 118hp standard output!

Where are the Subie guys?

His question in the beginning was more of what is the best type 1 engine. Not as general as the title to the thread would lead you to believe, so I made my suggestion of what I think is the best type 1. I don't think anyone seriously believes that any type 1 or type 4 is better then a suby engine, but it may be better for his particular install?

David, I made an effort to avoid this thread. My suggestion for any buyer would be to go with the engine that best matches the parameters the buyer sets for him/herself to do the job anticipated. I made my choice for what I considered to be the best for ME and ME ALONE. Each person has to weigh the many pros and cons for each power plant that is available and make the same choice. If it was possible for me at some point to put another car in the garage, and I'm talking a real flight of fancy, it would be a 550 or RSK with a big air-cooled Vdub in it. But that plan would have to be matched to a totally different set of parameters, IMHO.

Naaaah........slap a Saab V-4 back there......

saab 3 cyl, two stroke. now we're talkin, and has the added
benefit of mosquito control

Good one Bruce, very funny. You have English humour!

and my father had a 59 seeb "92" 3 cyl. two stroke and no mosquitos