slowshoes posted:So since we're back to square one, what's the best oil to use??!!
All I know is I’m not using 0W20, or any such nonsense. Oil pressure is your friend.
Since we're all interested in the best oil for our cars (and this really is a niche market now as the automotive manufacturers have pretty well abandonded flat tappet engine design and the big oil companies are no longer interested in our backwards corner of the automotive world) and we were discussing this again I've re-read the BITOG blurb (all 21 pages, although I do admit to skimming some of it). One thing I noticed- when it was brought up (more than once before it sunk in for some people) that RAT's test was not examining oil in a conventional way and was aimed at solving a very specific problem (premature camshaft/lifter failure), all but the most stubborn and pompous (the guy from Regina, Saskatchewan was particularly annoying- gee, kind of reminds us of some people here
) conceded that there may be some validity to what he's done. Yeah, there are issues- he won't describe his testing rig, he's quoting results to 6 figures with no working error I think are the major ones (and yes, I know major bone-head doesn't begin to describe him, but that's something else altogether), but add the anecdotal evidence he and 1 or 2 others provided and even if you introduced a 10% error factor I think there may be something worthwhile here. If we look at the list as more of a high-low thing (and you'll have to decide exactly where to draw the line), pick something in the top part you're comfortable with.
The guy does claim to be an engineer, so unless he's got some twisted agenda and he's just having fun blowing smoke up our asses there's something there. And really, if you're anywhere knowledgeable about VW aircooled cam/lifter failures, would you pick an oil from the bottom of the list? Al
And yeah, I know that Grant guy goes through asking questions point by point, Rat gets pissed and it devolves into the 2 of them trying to convince each other who has the bigger dick. Not really much of anything useful there...
Yoda wrote: "The guy does claim to be an engineer, so unless he's got some twisted agenda and he's just having fun blowing smoke up our asses there's something there."
Uhhh.....The former (twisted agenda and bloviating), not the latter. If he's not willing to explain and share how he tested his hypotheses or came to his results such that others (maybe not you nor me, but someone else) could use the same test methodology and come to the same results to confirm his hypotheses, he is NOT an engineer. Glorified tech who enjoys boosting his ego by bloviating at others (while not sharing his test methodology) maybe, but most of what he says is BS. That's why he lost me around "Hi, Grant." There was nothing of substance there. Most people in the industry know that there is a huge difference between testing in "real world conditions" versus testing to destruction or cataclysmic failure. He's just exploiting that spectrum to sound like he's important.
And I am NOT an Engineer. I married a great one, and paid dearly for a couple of others to learn the craft, but all I've done is manage a few hundred of them for a few decades so, after a while, you get a feel for the good ones and see through the poor ones. And the poor ones never last.
For the sake of the very unending possibilities inherent in SCIENCE, and the pursuit of pure unencumbered data....I can tell you that the guy IS an engineer, or at the least, a great impersonator of one. Again, for explanation purposes only, my training is a B.S. in Chemistry/Biology with a minor in PHYSICS, a M.S. Physics, D.D.S, and ScD., and a retired Oral Surgeon. There are likely a few other guys with similar backgrounds who can tell you that this research is of "some" value to those who have an appreciation for the data and "scientific method". He likely could have provided a bit more "people oriented" and simple explanation for those on this forum....but many scientists do not know how to do just that.
He does deliver data, whether accurate/credible is another question, but he does quantify and qualify his data and method. He also suggests very strongly that he has no $$$ interest in any which way which is truly representative of "scientific method". I am just offering a small defense of his work AND it is certainly not garbage....he goes as far to say that it cannot be duplicated in the context of "DRIVING" as his conditions are considerably more HARSH and controlled than normal driving.....which was necessary to bring the oils to PURE BREAKDOWN.
And, because of the harsh conditions, one/you may consider the ABUSE on the oil, not relative to your personal driving context and therefore NOT relative, appropriate, or of value. When Volvo or Mercedes purposely crashes 200 of their cars at a variety of speeds and angles, they are trying to draw conclusions as to how YOUR car MAY perform in a similar scenario. When the author beats the living **** out of motor oil relative to repeated insult of force and temperature, he is offering the reader an opportunity to extrapolate those results to ones driving context.
Happy NEW YEAR..be SAFE in 2018
Gordon Nichols posted:If he's not willing to explain and share...
Yeah, his people skills suck, just like about half of the engineers (and doctors) I've met. Sooo..., just let me ask you this (again)- are you so sure that the whole thing is BS and there's no value at all that, knowing what you do about the history of type 1 cam/lifter failures (and I know you know enough!
) that you would run one of the bottom 10 ranked oils with dual valve springs?
PS- I'm with you there, Stan!
For what its worth:
ALB posted:Gordon Nichols posted:If he's not willing to explain and share...
Yeah, his people skills suck, just like about half of the engineers (and doctors) I've met. Sooo..., just let me ask you this- you're so sure that the whole thing is BS and there's no value at all that, knowing what you do about the history of type 1 cam/lifter failures (and I know you know enough!
That would be like going on a date with a SUPERMODEL and trying to get her drunk on KOOL-AID and low shelf VODKA(KOO-LAID hopefully)
slowshoes posted:For what its worth:
Wow. Very cool to see the testing process. I assumed @Banzai Pipeline's friend, 540RAT, was using a similar lab screening testing process. Thanks for sharing. I still have a case of Brad Penn, and a bucket of popcorn to watch while you all figure out where I should buy my next case.
Mobil 1 looks like Brylcreem for blondes!
Exposing 540 Rat
gives multiple links or search 540 Rat and you will find multiple rebuttals by another engineer who disproves all his findings
just saying
I dove off the deep end tonight.
Group IV synthetics, viscosity arguments, Euro v. American synthetics, viscosity improvers, "Bob's the Oil Guy" forum, Mobil 1 S X2, v. Amsoil.
I'm thinking we all have too much time on our hands.
Thanks for posting that video Somewhere in the video he showed the wear parameters of three different oils and I noticed the high end synthetic was or had no carbon deposit or scuffing so I guess we can conclude that their high end synthetic is an excellent oil for a subie but for an AIrcooled maybe you need zn
Pretty much all of the engines made in the past quarter century or so can run new synthetic oil for 20k miles because the engines have excellent fuel metering. They don't contaminate the valves or the crank case with a lot of unburned hydrocarbons—which all carbureted engines do (and air-cooled, dual-carbed VW Bugs tend to do with especial rigor). Combine modern EFI with much more advanced roller bearing valve train components and you have a real nice package for any oil to work in. Which us T1 air-cooled guys cannot match under any circumstances.
Any cnance you will testing out RedLine oil for passenger cars?
SOooo.....You Subaru engine owners. What oil are you using in your cars ? Currently my Suby engine is sitting on the floor of my garage with no oil in it at all and a big yellow warning sticker telling me that. Sooner or later I'm gonna have to put some in. Don't need to know the why's, just the whats, Thanks in advance........Bruce
aircooled posted:SOooo.....You Subaru engine owners. What oil are you using in your cars ? Currently my Suby engine is sitting on the floor of my garage with no oil in it at all and a big yellow warning sticker telling me that. Sooner or later I'm gonna have to put some in. Don't need to know the why's, just the whats, Thanks in advance........Bruce
following...
aircooled posted:SOooo.....You Subaru engine owners. What oil are you using in your cars ? Currently my Suby engine is sitting on the floor of my garage with no oil in it at all and a big yellow warning sticker telling me that. Sooner or later I'm gonna have to put some in. Don't need to know the why's, just the whats, Thanks in advance........Bruce
Carey Hines should have a good suggestion for you, Bruce. Joe Forentino might have about the same engine as you and could provide good intel too.
Thanks David.............Bruce
The builder of the engine should have some suggestions. Some use DYno oil for break in for the first 3000 miles others do not. Some are concerned about the rings seating properly. The builder that is in my area uses synthetic 5w30 go figure... In any case if the engine builder you use has some demands why don't you call him first before putting anything in.
I am using Pennzoil 5w30 full synthetic, the way I see it WHO KNOWS what is good oil in a modern engine... some swear by mobil one, castrol, etc etc. We had some oil expert being quoted here at one time who quickly was discovered to be all a hoax.
Thank you Ray........Bruce
Jared....You're the Iowa guy ! I originally came from Spirit Lake/Okoboji area....Bruce
Subys are new engines and you should use the oil weight stamped on the oil filler cap (5w30, 5w20 or, in my 1994 version, 10w30) synthetic unless the builder specifies something else. A stock n/a EJXX will rev to 6500 with power and the bearing surfaces and oiling system are worlds stouter than any kind of Type 1 you could assemble; it'd be a pretty crazy build to want to go very different from stock oil. Compared to solid lifter air-cooled engines, Subys are easy.
Ed, subies have their own learning curve as any engine but the tinkering may be less once it is well set up. Having said that my 2110cc CB motor was pretty bullet proof for 5 years the fuel pump is the only gremlin that died slowly and caused us to chase the rabbit=.
I have had rabbits to chase with my subie as well. Hey come to think of it where is the spyder man with the subie from vintage with the subie... Anyone know. Virginia is quite quiet these days it seems.
aircooled posted:Jared....You're the Iowa guy ! I originally came from Spirit Lake/Okoboji area....Bruce
Beautiful area. I get up there once a month. During the summer it’s absolutely amazing up there.
You should call my Nephew in Spirit Lake. He's plays with cars, snowmobiles, motorcycles and pinball machines up the GAZOO ! He has lived there all his life but isn't a water/lake guy. Can you believe that ! His Son is though. I taught him to SCUBA dive and he's now at advanced diver level I had my first diving experience in one of the lakes there when I was 11 back in 1953. We were using home-made regulators made from plans published in Boys Life Mag. Jeez...I just gave out my age.....oh well.............Bruce
A friends father died last year at 100 ... he was fully active till the last 2 years when his hips gave out. I guess he did not have a Japanese toilet which it seems can keep your hips going forever.