Best Type1 Engine ever

When I had my IM restored I considered ordering an engine from Jake.  I thought his engines were too expensive, so I had a local builder build me a type 1 2276.

Big mistake.

The engine has been out and apart (partially and fully) twice in 3000 miles.

If I had it to do again, I would have bit the bullet and paid the premium price for one of Jake's engines. 

That sounds great! motor specs?

what is the expression - do it once, do it right.

i have to also add that you (danny) are probably one of the most knowledgeable / consciousness owners a builder could have.  you are so 'in tune' with tuning your motor.  what it feels/smells like, how hot, etc.  Lots of owners would just turn the key and forget about everything else.

After driving the stew (for me) out of Danny's car I can attest to the strength of that drivetrain.  I think that he might even have experienced a little "pucker factor" once or twice - more likely due to my inexperience than the actual speed.

Danny's Jake Raby powered type 1 is the best I have ever driven ...... period!

Roger That!!

Thanks guys! ALB, it is 78 X 94, CB 5.5" H beam rods, CB forged crank. Mahle P & C, N-gap rings, CR 9.8:1. Heads are welded 040 from Headflow Masters, 44 X 37mm. Webcam 86B with Pauter 1.5:1 roller-rockers, chromoly pushrods, loose zero clearance. CB space saver manifolds, port matched of course. Weber 44 IDF, Spanish ones. Kennedy Stage 1 clutch, 11 lb. flywheel, 8 dowelled. Hi volume oil pump, Gene Berg pressure relief cover, full flowed, Mesa96 external cooler with oil and electric fan thermostats, Wix filter. Exhaust is 1 5/8" 4 into 2 Magnaflow into 1 merged 3" exit, with wideband Innovate gauge.

The best thing I did was remove the 009 and install Megajolt ignition, which is a crank-fire waste-spark system off of a Ford Escort from the early 90s. It has a computer interface and aftermarket controller that I built/assembled and gives you a 10 by 10 map for load and rpm.

Currently running 1.40 mains, 200 air correctors and 57.5 idles. Runs 12:1 full load and about 12.5 to 13:1 cruising, never too lean.

It runs a 911 fan and aftermarket shroud and I have a CHT gauge on number 4, which is always the hottest with that setup. Never goes above 300 F, unless I sit and idle in traffic on a REALLY hot day. Underway temps are under control, has to do with the open engine bay on a Spyder.

What Raby cam was in that engine?

Good stuff, Dan; runs like a beast, yet it'll do the weekend driver thing too. Excellent! 

I believe it's a Web 86B.

Web 86B is similar to an Engle FK8; almost identical duration and lift specs, uses 1.4-1.5 ratio rockers and has enough lift for bigger valve heads, revs to about 6500 with power yet can be docile enough for a fairweather driver. And it's not really hard on the valve train or lifter bores. Al

The cam is an 86B variant. it has an 86B intake profile but has an altered exhaust profile to better match the port flow margins of the cylinder heads that were used.

Danny has been a great customer over more than a decade. 

Danny;

should not you be running 1.55 mains for that configuration? (according to Tomlinson's Book)

Those recommendations are only a starting point. You'll find they're almost always on the rich side; that way people aren't starting up motors lean, damaging them and then looking for CB to replace parts. Remember, a motor always runs hottest when new (and everything's tight and not run in yet). Al  

PS- What Paul said above, "you (danny) are probably one of the most knowledgeable / consciousness owners a builder could have.  you are so 'in tune' with tuning your motor.  what it feels/smells like, how hot, etc.  Lots of owners would just turn the key and forget about everything else." is so important. A large part of the success of a high performance VW motor depends on the operator. This is old school hot-rodding at it's most basic level, and even a mild 2 liter will make twice the hp that the Wolfsburg forest elves originally intended (try that with a V8 and see how long it lasts). When running a powerplant that makes 3 or 4 (or more!) times the hp of a stock plodding 1600, being in tune with how it runs and recognizing when attention is needed is essential to it's long life. Doing your own oil changes, valve adjustments, plug replacing, distributor maintenance and (at a slightly more sophisticated level) carburetor jetting and tuning develops a "familiarity" with your motor that is invaluable; you see (and feel) how it runs before and after tune ups, and this feel lets you recognize when something changes on the road. A plugged idle jet goes from a little more gas pedal to compensate for the rest of the trip (and possibly doing damage if compression is already near the ragged edge) and hoping it will clear out on it's own to a couple minutes with tools out of the emergency kit (specific to your car) to pull the jet, clear, re-install and you're back under way. This is all part of the experience (and mystique) of owning an older car with antique technology.

Aircooled ownership (even if you don't do your own maintenance) requires some dedication and being "in tune" with your powerplant. If the connection isn't there, then maybe this is where a Subaru motor fits into the picture...Al

Al's being gracious. The Tomlinson "Bible" has some fair/middling pictures. That's it. Your car will run on those recommendations, but not well.

Those that pay attention to their engines quickly learn that no resource can act as a directive for tuning. There are too many variables that impact the optimization of the engine. Today ethanol enriched and oxygenated fuels change tuning parameters by huge percentages.

When the older resource materials were written these fuels weren't even thought about, so like anything else, nothing ever stays the same. 

I give an engine what it likes to be efficient, no matter what that may be. I quit paying attention to directives years ago and now I write my own.

Perhaps you should publish them Jake. 

No one would pay what they are worth, or they'd complain about the cost. All of my resource materials are focused on the modern Porsche engines because the information has never been published and I am the only guy that has it :-)

Hi Al,

You may not believe it, but some Subi owners may actually be capable of the dedication and altered states you describe.  Such condescion actually sounds somewhat humorous.  Shall we now address you as Yoda?

Its the truth.. The factory never even published these specs and they are absolutely unavailable without gaining them from first hand experience. Those engines are huge mysteries internally; which is why we have them here from 20 states and 4 other countries as we speak.

Information on the Suby is quite opposite, theres tons of it out there, just like for the Type 1 engine.

Yoda has always been my hero.

Jim-

I didn't get condescension from Al's post (but it often seems like there's a steady stream of it coming from the Subi-front). Regardless of how circumspect some water-cooled guys may be, the main appeal of the Subaru platform is that it doesn't require the kind of Zen-like "oneness" with the engine. That's perfectly OK. I ond't want to think about my work truck or wife's mini-van. There are a lot of guys that just want to get in and drive their speedster as well.

It's the expectation, and it's reasonable.

Not sure it's condescension.  Maybe envy.  Given the quality of aftermarket VW parts, and what I saw in the Raby/Subi Beck at Carlisle, that's probably how I'd do it now.

Stan pretty much nailed it.  Of the Suby-powered Speedsters/Roadsters at Carlisle this year, all except for Peter Venuti (Dave Stroud was not there) were turn-key owners who would be very hard pressed to understand (and fix) how their engine operates and address any problems beyond what they're being told from their OBD port (if they even have an OBD scanner).  Jetting is as exotic as port-tuning or air-fuel mapping to them.  Maybe that's as it should be - many folks on here do not wish to become as technical as might be necessary to really understand what's going on with their engine and are very happy just to enjoy driving their car and let someone else provide any necessary service for a reasonable price and that's OK.  Others have that itch to get in there and understand what's going on (sometimes screwing things up in the process, but they learn by righting wrongs) so they can tinker with things and make it "better".

I've been a proponent of Subaru power for these cars simply because most (if not all) competent aircooled mechanics in most locales have exited the scene years ago and the cost to build/buy and maintain these engines is becoming prohibitive;  $8,000 for a 4-cylinder, aircooled engine that develops less than 150hp?  Really?  When I can get a great, running, salvage engine producing OVER 150hp for $1,500 and bolt it in with some plumbing? In my mind, it's all about total cost of ownership, enjoyment of whatever facet of the hobby you like (driving or tinkering) and getting on with life.

"You may not believe it, but some Subi owners may actually be capable of the dedication and altered states you describe."  Yes, that's true, but not many of those folks are on here.    Those in that top 10% are tuners driving street-legal, 4wd WRX rockets, not Speedsters.

The Speedstah Guy, getting off his soapbox

When we started creating our own breed of Suby based engines a few years ago we knew that the following for these engines would be much different than those who we had serviced with the ACVW engines for so many years.

Now that we have an equal amount of Suby and ACVW  purchasers its easy to help the person choose the correct base engine for their project.

The guys that don't like to tinker and love to drive get the suby, the guys that like to tinker and love to drive go aircooled. 

I personally like both the engines and have my fleet powered by both, its only the Suby that can make 280HP N/A on pump gas and rev to 9K while having great manners and 30 MPG, too.

All of us have the capacity to learn new things while discussing our choices, so the potato/potahto discussions have inherent value.  I try to discuss my choices without disparaging others.  IMHO, most of us, myself included, are dinosaurs who won't have much influence, since we are well past our use-by date.  The kids snd the choices they make will dictate auto makers' future decisions and, even more importantly, the after-market folks r&d, marketing, etc.  Google Subaru tuners and see what pops up.  Blogs and websites abound for all things Subi.

I have held fast to some things that make no intellectual sense, like the clothes I am comfortable wearing, much to my childrens' amusement.  Even though times change, my sense of style, as undeveloped as it is, was cast in about 1963, when I was 18 and had my first bug, a '59.  I also had a Pat Downs 2110 in my VS.  Many bugs, a/c engines, and decades later, I'm over air-cooled, but that's just me. Long live our differences in this big tent!     

What we've done with the Suby is to optimize the Suby engine for applications other than the Subaru. That means a change of character through altered sound and RPM ranges.

It must work, because they sell like crazy with no advertisement and a website thats blah of content.

I don't think we would see near as many low mileage 356 replicas for sale if they were all powered by Subi watercooled engines.

I'm expecting my Raby Suby Beck to arrive in Fort Lauderdale this Thurs or Friday.  I'm one of those who loves older model cars to drive.  Although I've done my share of work on a 356 B Coupe back in the early eighties, it's for the driving that I had it.  And drive is what I plan to do with this car.......just like musbejim.   I'll post my impressions and feedback to SOC as I put on the miles.   

Ron---best observation this year on the SOC.  I'd consider adding Raby Type IVs to the group though and a certain Raby Type I that scared the hell out of me!

Jim- I realize that some Subi owners are quite capable and very in tune with their cars, and meant no disrespect. As these aren't modern cars, my point was that for the non-mechanically inclined Subaru power may be a better option and would make the dream a little closer to the reality. Ron's statement, "I don't think we would see near as many low mileage 356 replicas for sale if they were all powered by Subi watercooled engines.", (I think) hit the nail on the head. And to think you consider me as wise as Yoda; I'm flattered...

Gordon's comment about a lot of guys with subi powered cars being "turn-key owners who would be very hard pressed to understand (and fix) how their engine operates and address any problems beyond what they're being told from their OBD port (if they even have an OBD scanner)" also addresses the point I was trying to make. Some people expect these cars to be filled with today's technology and aren't prepared to deal with them if they come up short.

Stan- I agree with you; the jetting recommendations could be a little better and the pictures suck, but iIrc, the troubleshooting section is pretty good. The book leaves a lot to be desired, but it's a pretty good start. Al

Thanks for your comments, Al.  You are one of the posters whose comments I always read because you know your stuff, explain it well, and I learn things, much like HRH from Stanistan (smile).  Keep up the good work!  Maybe someday in the distant future, I'll be able to drive through that huge part of the country between the two coasts, and we can share some thoughts and refreshments.     

If you're ever on the wet coast (Vancouver specifically) let me know. I'll sit down and spot you the first (and 2nd, and maybe even the 3rd..) beverage any time. I don't have the social standing of HRH but I'm knowledgable when it comes to the local beverages... Al 

Jim-

I'm not sure why any normal person would want to listen to what I have to say regarding these cars.

Anything I know is from a decade of making all the mistakes there are to make. Everybody's got something they want to be "perfect". I'd like EVERYTHING to be perfect. Unfortunately, (regardless of what they are saying over on the Samba), the air-cooled VW is far from a perfect engine.

I think, however, that it can be reimagined to be something pretty close to perfect for the application. For me, a speedster means "air-cooled flat four".

As a result, I've spent freakish amounts of time and money to try to get my car to a point of perfection that is not 100% possible. The process has been a lot like feeling my way through a dark space with my forehead. Because I'm not normal, this is therapeutic and very enjoyable to me, but it's not easy or cheap. It would be cheaper and easier to not be married as well, but I cannot imagine a life without my wife-- living with somebody I truly love makes any expense or difficulty well worth it. I feel that way about the speedster to one degree or another. I love that stupid air-cooled flat 4.

The ACVW world is a funny place. There are guys frozen in amber, who believe that the whole world stopped turning when Gene Berg closed the canon on the Type 1 bible. There are the thieves and charlatans who promise 200 hp for $5000, and deliver leaking, unworkable garbage (6 months late, and $4000 over budget). There are drag-racing shops who believe that, deep down inside, everybody REALLY wants a turboed, injected, NOS equipped 350 hp monster that holds together for 3-5 passes.

Jake is successful because he understands that there is another kind of buyer-- a guy who wants usable, reliable, and tractable power-- not 201 hp (Orange County Correction Factor), but real-world, honest 'injun, drive across two time-zones, blow out of corners power. He delivered it with Type 4s, and he'll deliver it with Subarus. It isn't even close to cheap, but after 4 high-dollar permutations of Type 1 looking for the holy grail, I can tell you that it's probably worth whatever it costs. If I was starting out from scratch, I can guarantee I'd just lay out the Benjamins and get a big 'ol RAT motor.

I'm not normal, though. I HAVE to tinker with this car, or it loses 50% of the appeal to me. My good friend Terry Nuckels asked me if I spent more time in the driver's seat, or on the creeper. Cory Drake thinks that's a dumb question (his money is on the creeper). Cory's probably right, but I'm weird that way. I would have zero use for a Subaru, and I'd probably try to make even a RAT motor better (and end up spinning my wheels, or worse). If I wasn't a banged up old shop-head (and frustrated mechanical engineer), I'd just let somebody else do a nice Subaru conversion and be done with it for the next 20 years or so. I am, however, a banged up old shop-head.

In the case of speedster engines, perfection is in the eye of the beholder. In my eye, nobody's ever built what I consider to be perfection. For me, the drive-train I've got is really, really, REALLY close-- but the idea of a dry-sumped Type 1 with 911 oil squirters, etc. isn't for everybody. It probably isn't for anybody but me. The 2110 going in my '64 panel van is a LOT more conventional.

Jake is right-- there are two basic kinds of guys in this hobby. The retro-grouches who want to touch everything, and fiddle with it land in the air-cooled camp. The guys who don't fondly look back on the days of spending 15 minutes drying out the distributor every time the humidity goes over 50% end up with Subarus. It's a big tent. There's room for everybody. But I know what I'm about, and it's not an EFI, crank-fired, water-cooled, chipped Japanese wonder.

Your mileage may vary.

... by the way: His Royal Highness (HRR) indicates that The Peoples' Republic of Stanistan is a monarchy. It is not. I am President for Life, Beloved by His People (PfL)-- we have no need for elections, for I am beloved by my people.

Great post, Stan.

OK so here goes. I'm following in Stroud's footsteps because, although I am not a "banged up old shop head" (no matter what my wife and in-laws think), I like the idea of tripling my car's power for $3,000.

So I guess I'm going to be a Soob guy who has to touch, not everything, but many things.

For a guy like me, with a low four-figure budget, the aim can't be perfection. The aim is always the sweet spot where the money and time are both deployed with maximum efficiency.

Obviously with a TD car I get excused from the air-cooled authenticity debate. The Type 1 has become more and more appealing as I've gotten used to it and managed to repair its several small faults. But the one in my car is vintage 1966, well and truly broken-in, and due for replacement. So the question, for me, becomes: what's the best bet, dollar for dollar, and power for reliability and mileage?

Do I find a local builder and give him my $3k, then another $1-$2k for contingencies, and best case get 90 horses that maybe will hold together for 80,000 miles, or (worst case) just as maybe suck an exhaust valve or smoke a main bearing in 12,000? (While getting me 25 mpg?)

Or do I go find a Legacy with 80,000 miles on it for $1000, pull the engine and some wires, sell the carcass for $400, buy the KEP adapter and sundries for another $1,000 and build some cooling to get 135 horses that will probably run strong for another 160,000 miles? (And deliver 35 mpg?)

For me there's not much debate. You bet I'll have my hands in it. And you bet I'll make mistakes--many more than David Stroud did--and be frustrated and whiny asking for help right here. But with luck and pluck I'll have something in a year or so that I can truly say is mine.

I have truly enjoyed this debate as it encapsulates what I like about the hobby - the variety and the characters who are attracted to it (myself included).

I may be a rare middle-of-the-roader here in that I enjoy tinkering but I would go Subaru so that I can also enjoy the advantages of cost, reliability, and mileage.  I find  that, even though I spend most of my time driving the car within 20 miles of home, I form much of my opinion about the car's "perfection" around how it handles the longer trips like Carlisle.  For that, the Subaru is tough to beat.  That's what drove me to make the fancy side windows (and to continue to try to refine them) and that is what attracts me to a coupe or roadster.  Even with an almost maintenance-free engine, there is plenty left on the car to tinker with for me.

Oh yeah - If I never, ever have to clean the jets of a Weber carb again, I'm ok with that.

"Oh yeah - If I never, ever have to clean the jets of a Weber carb again, I'm ok with that."

Lane, you just made my day! Al

Exactly what I was thinking with my conversion, Ed. Especially with a low overall value of my car to start with.

You don't have to make any mistakes, I made enough for both of us in my conversion. It's really fairly straight forward overall but I just didn't mess with the wiring. If you get tired or frustrated with the wiring thing, you could just stick on a carb and go electronic ignition separately.

Glad to be of service, Al.