I am in the process of redoing my door tops so I had to take off the door panels. Today I was driving around without the panels and I discovered where a lot of the rattling noise is coming from in my car. I
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I am in the process of redoing my door tops so I had to take off the door panels. Today I was driving around without the panels and I discovered where a lot of the rattling noise is coming from in my car. I
Mickey-
You are experiencing why race cars are coupes, or monocoque tubs, or both. Your (topless) car is actively trying to fold in half at the weakest point (across the door opening), and the only thing keeping that from occurring is the sub-frame under the door-sill (yeah, the tunnel helps.... a bit). It's a weakness of a pan-based car- I used to watch the gap between my door and the body in my JPS grow and shrink as much as an eighth of an inch as I drove down the road. My first car flexed badly enough that the door would pop open if I cornered quickly.
I'd bet a donut it has nothing to do with the body. In my unschooled opinion, what you have, my friend, is a frame issue. The solution involves a welder and some triangulation across at least part of the sill area. You'd be surprised how much better a car works when it isn't trying to go origami on you. Then again, it's probably been doing this since it was built.
If it makes you feel better, my sister had a Fiat 124 Spyder that eventually wouldn't allow the doors to close unless you jacked up the body under the sills.
You are experiencing why race cars are coupes, or monocoque tubs, or both. Your (topless) car is actively trying to fold in half at the weakest point (across the door opening), and the only thing keeping that from occurring is the sub-frame under the door-sill (yeah, the tunnel helps.... a bit). It's a weakness of a pan-based car- I used to watch the gap between my door and the body in my JPS grow and shrink as much as an eighth of an inch as I drove down the road. My first car flexed badly enough that the door would pop open if I cornered quickly.
I'd bet a donut it has nothing to do with the body. In my unschooled opinion, what you have, my friend, is a frame issue. The solution involves a welder and some triangulation across at least part of the sill area. You'd be surprised how much better a car works when it isn't trying to go origami on you. Then again, it's probably been doing this since it was built.
If it makes you feel better, my sister had a Fiat 124 Spyder that eventually wouldn't allow the doors to close unless you jacked up the body under the sills.
OK Stan. I'm game for some welding. Anyone have any recommendations for where, what and how? Pictures or a reference guide of some sort?
I'll take any and all suggestions for solutions. Keep em comin!
I'll take any and all suggestions for solutions. Keep em comin!
Mickey, I have to disagree with Stan. I'm pretty confident it's an age issue. You asked if your body could be loose, and I'm afraid that's what it is. I've noticed mine getting a lot looser since I turned 50.
Glad I could be so helpful.
Glad I could be so helpful.
Mickey
Your Speedster probably needs some suspenders. Take a look at this drawing:
https://www.speedsterowners.com/library/fiberfaba/images/fiberfaba081.jpg
(this drawing shows the subframe but DOES NOT show the additional supports that are needed)
From the pillar behind the door to the square subframe that surrounds the engine needs to have a brace added.
The body mounts to the rear subframe in the rear wheelwell area. The rear portion of the body's weight is too much for this mount. It comes loose and sags after time. Without braces the subframe sags also.
The early Speedster kits did not have a support between the door post and the rear subframe and has to be added. This has been covered a few times somewhere here, before. I think Alan Merklin detailed the installation at one point.
Greg
Your Speedster probably needs some suspenders. Take a look at this drawing:
https://www.speedsterowners.com/library/fiberfaba/images/fiberfaba081.jpg
(this drawing shows the subframe but DOES NOT show the additional supports that are needed)
From the pillar behind the door to the square subframe that surrounds the engine needs to have a brace added.
The body mounts to the rear subframe in the rear wheelwell area. The rear portion of the body's weight is too much for this mount. It comes loose and sags after time. Without braces the subframe sags also.
The early Speedster kits did not have a support between the door post and the rear subframe and has to be added. This has been covered a few times somewhere here, before. I think Alan Merklin detailed the installation at one point.
Greg
Thanks Lane. At 44 yrs old my body is starting to creak and ache a bit too. Maybe some rivets and a few supports welded in here and there will help. ;-)
Greg, again you come through big-time! I appreciate the drawing, it'll give me something to plan with.
Dr. Clock are you out there?
I did a search but couldn't find much, I don't think I'm very good at utilizing the search feature here. Maybe the wrong key words? Though I did run across an old IM vs 'the others' thread that Vince was being stoned and burned at the stake, good reading. ;-)
I'm sure this is common among the older pan based cars so I'm sure others have the issue as well. I guess it's a matter of finding someone thats fixed it and how for a little more detailed insight.
Greg, again you come through big-time! I appreciate the drawing, it'll give me something to plan with.
Dr. Clock are you out there?
I did a search but couldn't find much, I don't think I'm very good at utilizing the search feature here. Maybe the wrong key words? Though I did run across an old IM vs 'the others' thread that Vince was being stoned and burned at the stake, good reading. ;-)
I'm sure this is common among the older pan based cars so I'm sure others have the issue as well. I guess it's a matter of finding someone thats fixed it and how for a little more detailed insight.
Yeah, a bunch of us have made that mod - stiffens things up nicely and it's pretty easy to do, even on a finished car.
https://www.speedsterowners.com/files/view.asp?sf=Jogyver&f=rear+frame%2EJPG
Mickey.
This is how Joe Soltis fixed his.
Take a look.
Greg
Mickey.
This is how Joe Soltis fixed his.
Take a look.
Greg
Thanks Greg. Again.
The rubber gaskit is a must. I'd have to say you need it.
But also ! while you have the chance get 4 tubes of the soft set black winsheild sealer and lay down 4 beads below and on top of the gaskit before you reset the cab Thats almost a garrentied
NO squeaky leakey pan
For clean ups like that . I use ta use NAPA.s Klean Easy to clean up the seams.....NOT ANY MORE.. take 1 quart of turpintine and one quart Accetone. and make the same thing for 1/2 price .
But also ! while you have the chance get 4 tubes of the soft set black winsheild sealer and lay down 4 beads below and on top of the gaskit before you reset the cab Thats almost a garrentied
NO squeaky leakey pan
For clean ups like that . I use ta use NAPA.s Klean Easy to clean up the seams.....NOT ANY MORE.. take 1 quart of turpintine and one quart Accetone. and make the same thing for 1/2 price .
Mickey, I don't have any noise problems or body flex to speak of.
One of the more clever things Jimmy did on my chassis was add about ten inches of box tubing to the tops of the corner posts CMC already had on the frame, making the B pillars almost door-height. There wasn't any grafting of the body to the car back there, but you'd almost certainly have to remove your body to do it.
He added tabs to the B pillar, growing the metal out to the Nader bolt, and then drilled the tabs for the bolt to attach to. I'm not sure if that would answer the mail on your car, but my doors close perfectly, every time.
In the picture, you can see the weld seam through the powdercoat, and then the tabs themselves. The outriggers at the bottom are three-quarter-inch box tubing, for scale. That's where the Dzus fasteners go when the body's on. Not really a fix for your car.
I don't think there have been any changes to the rear-end sag fix since Joe Soltis' car. I think he hit a winner there; I'd do that to fix yours -- but the search would be 'sag' to find the thread.
One of the more clever things Jimmy did on my chassis was add about ten inches of box tubing to the tops of the corner posts CMC already had on the frame, making the B pillars almost door-height. There wasn't any grafting of the body to the car back there, but you'd almost certainly have to remove your body to do it.
He added tabs to the B pillar, growing the metal out to the Nader bolt, and then drilled the tabs for the bolt to attach to. I'm not sure if that would answer the mail on your car, but my doors close perfectly, every time.
In the picture, you can see the weld seam through the powdercoat, and then the tabs themselves. The outriggers at the bottom are three-quarter-inch box tubing, for scale. That's where the Dzus fasteners go when the body's on. Not really a fix for your car.
I don't think there have been any changes to the rear-end sag fix since Joe Soltis' car. I think he hit a winner there; I'd do that to fix yours -- but the search would be 'sag' to find the thread.
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One other item that everyone tends to over look is the engine mount frame horns. When the engine torques the mounts flex causing the body and frame to flex. A traction system that bolts to the engine horns and the shock towers tends to tighten it up . When I take off quickly there is no flex.
Thanks guys. Joe, I am going to have to relocate my shock mounts because of the narrowed trailing arms I put in. The issue of reinforcing the engine forks to the shock mounts, is that one of those bolt on traction bar thingahmajigs, or are you talking about fabbing something? Because it's looking like I'll have to fab something regardless. If it is something you fabricated can you share the knowledge? Or is it something along the line of what Cory has going vertical from his engine forks?
I like all these ides. when I built mine i let the new automatic fork plates pass way up the sides of the tunnel that also help it a bunch and I reinfored inside the tunnel while it was upside down with the bottom off
But thats only possible at the build and shorting stage. I still say if i could do it again I lose the part of the tunnle that makes seat fitment hard an reinforce the intire thing with 3/8 plate there.
That and your ideas would realy make it strong.
But thats only possible at the build and shorting stage. I still say if i could do it again I lose the part of the tunnle that makes seat fitment hard an reinforce the intire thing with 3/8 plate there.
That and your ideas would realy make it strong.
Joe's drawing is garbled and I cannot make heads not tails out of it.
Anyone have a clearer version?
Anyone have a clearer version?
I'm also going to be adding a brace on the B post to the rear subframe and would also appreciate some pics of what you folks have done.....I also need to add some height to the existing B post to give me somewhere to add a seatbelt fixing, (3 point belts), any advice?
I don't know if it makes any difference, but instead of using the regular VW body/pan washers, I bent up a thick wall, 1" box section that runs in the recess at the edge of the pan. I drilled this for the body mounts. I figure that any additional bracing won't go amiss.
Cheers
Gerry
Gerry,
I'm in the middle of my project with the pillar to frame rail supports. I've gotten as far as cutting the holes and support pieces and all that's left is welding them into place. It's been very busy at work and it's also been a little cold so I haven't gotten to it yet but hope to in the next week. Look further down on the list of Technical General for the thread Custom Chassis Work and you can see where I'm at.
As far as the seat belt mounting. I was thinking of doing a cross bar from pillar to pillar to mount my shoulder harnesses to. I figured it may add a little more side to side integrity as well.
I'll keep you posted.
I'm in the middle of my project with the pillar to frame rail supports. I've gotten as far as cutting the holes and support pieces and all that's left is welding them into place. It's been very busy at work and it's also been a little cold so I haven't gotten to it yet but hope to in the next week. Look further down on the list of Technical General for the thread Custom Chassis Work and you can see where I'm at.
As far as the seat belt mounting. I was thinking of doing a cross bar from pillar to pillar to mount my shoulder harnesses to. I figured it may add a little more side to side integrity as well.
I'll keep you posted.
I have a CMC sub-frame on my bench now and pondering if it could be done better if one started with a blank sheet.
Any comments or ideas?
I see Jogyver's idea on how to prevent saggy bum and are there any additional comments on how to improve the existing CMC design.
For example I am pondering a triangulated brace from the under dash transverse tube to the front corners of the sub-frame.
I would really like to have an integral chasis/sub-frame and the body would be a bolt on shell like the way Factory 5 do it on their Cobra kits. Any ideas on how to do this without going all out like Cory? I have my own mould so it should be possible.
Mickey - I do not understand the comment on the cross brace connecting the rear door pillars. This would run inside the car right through the rear set area on my car.
Like the idea of the triangulated brace from the rear door pillar to the sill and will hack into the glass to install one. Kind of difficult to do if the body is a shell though.
Any comments or ideas?
I see Jogyver's idea on how to prevent saggy bum and are there any additional comments on how to improve the existing CMC design.
For example I am pondering a triangulated brace from the under dash transverse tube to the front corners of the sub-frame.
I would really like to have an integral chasis/sub-frame and the body would be a bolt on shell like the way Factory 5 do it on their Cobra kits. Any ideas on how to do this without going all out like Cory? I have my own mould so it should be possible.
Mickey - I do not understand the comment on the cross brace connecting the rear door pillars. This would run inside the car right through the rear set area on my car.
Like the idea of the triangulated brace from the rear door pillar to the sill and will hack into the glass to install one. Kind of difficult to do if the body is a shell though.
Robert,
Yes, I did hack into the glass to fit the supports from the posts to the frame, there is no other way to do it. It's no biggie, it's only fiberglass. Once I get them welded in I'll just reglass. The patches will be covered by carpet so no one will ever know. I just talked to my buddy today and he thinks there should be some room in his shop mid next week to do the welding. When it's all done I'll post the pics and folks can see it's not that scary. I think it's a pretty easy way to stiffen things up.
As far as the cross bar- you're correct again, I was talking about taking it straight across the rear seating area. It's just an idea I'm thinking about. I haven't committed to it. The rear seat area is pretty useless to begin with and if I can incorporate some more structual integrity to the car by doing so it's a better use of space, in my opinion. I'm really just looking for a solid hook up for my shoulder harness. The subframe posts don't go that high so it would probably run across at the same height as the rear seat cushion and therefore still allow room for a couple bags of groceries.
Yes, I did hack into the glass to fit the supports from the posts to the frame, there is no other way to do it. It's no biggie, it's only fiberglass. Once I get them welded in I'll just reglass. The patches will be covered by carpet so no one will ever know. I just talked to my buddy today and he thinks there should be some room in his shop mid next week to do the welding. When it's all done I'll post the pics and folks can see it's not that scary. I think it's a pretty easy way to stiffen things up.
As far as the cross bar- you're correct again, I was talking about taking it straight across the rear seating area. It's just an idea I'm thinking about. I haven't committed to it. The rear seat area is pretty useless to begin with and if I can incorporate some more structual integrity to the car by doing so it's a better use of space, in my opinion. I'm really just looking for a solid hook up for my shoulder harness. The subframe posts don't go that high so it would probably run across at the same height as the rear seat cushion and therefore still allow room for a couple bags of groceries.
Mickey,
Your cross frame at the back for seat belt hook up: will this include a roll bar too? Seems a natural, and having the roll bar that is stiff enough to do the deed is the way to get a big boost in overall safety, IMHO. If you pitch one of these cars over at speed w/out a proper roll bar, my bet is that it is not pretty, and chances of walking away are low.
Your cross frame at the back for seat belt hook up: will this include a roll bar too? Seems a natural, and having the roll bar that is stiff enough to do the deed is the way to get a big boost in overall safety, IMHO. If you pitch one of these cars over at speed w/out a proper roll bar, my bet is that it is not pretty, and chances of walking away are low.
Not sure yet Kelly. I'm kicking around a few ideas for the roll bar. Sometimes I think I want one and others I don't, but I do want to do everything I can to make the car as safe and rigid as possible. I just want to get the side supports in first and then see where I'm at. I have 4-point belts right now and I need a place to attach the shoulder harness so that's where I came up with the cross member.
Mickey, Shoulder harness=roll bar.
No roll bar, no belts, lap ONLY IMHO for a street car.
No roll bar, no belts, lap ONLY IMHO for a street car.
Right. Roll bar and cross member is a all-one-in-the-same two-fer, win-win. IMHO. You do the work once and get it all. Personally, I like the Boxster look w/ two triangular sort of loops, one on each side. Look in my photo gallery and see how I put some on w/ Photoshop. There is a bunch here on the forum wrt roll bars and how to do them; poke through those posts. Also note: if you have the roll bar back there, you have a cool place to mount a windscreen (made of Plexi??) and so greatly reduce the sound and buffeting (sp?) you get w/ top down at speed. To my mind, all of that is THE answer. Note that most of the air you get on you w/ the top down comes from the back, and also has the ability to contain exhaust gasses mixed in, depending on how your tailpipe dumps out. Blocking all of that, esp'y on long trips, would be a plus. I'm just sayin' . . .