Bolt on A-Arm suspension???

Guys,

I have been talking with Jason (Volksdent over at GermanLook.com) and also with John Busceme of XV Motorsports about the possibility of designing and marketing an a-arm bolt on system for the aircooled VW community.

My question and also John's is do you think it is a viable marketing venture. I realize that there are a lot of possibilities. Jason and Eyeball Engineering both have I believe the right idea of being able to use as many VW/Porsche parts as possible to minimize the costs to the car owner. Also, having a bolt on system that can be converted back to torsion bar is the way to go.

A little background on John Busceme of XV Motorsports. I first saw his 'business' on "Dream Car Garage" of the Speed Channel. His approach to changing a Challengers front torsion suspension to unequal length a-arm set up was done extremely well. I was so impressed that I purchased his DVD on the whole series of his build and testing. Please go to http://www.xvmotorsports.com/ and check out his company. I talked with John a little the other day and we would have to do a lot more discussion on the particulars, but rest assured, if he were to get involved, it would be done 110% correct.

I guess the main concern would be for everyone involved is costs as always ;) . I can see the base system eventually being the cradle/a-arms/steering rack. Having different options or combinations of springs/shocks available being the main cost variable. Possibly having different steering box/rack options is another thought.

This is just a thought and I am in the infancy stages of seeing what can be done; if anything.

Your thoughts and constructive input is greatly appreciated. Also, how much in very rough costs would you be willing to spend?

Thanks,

Kelly (Cohibra)

I'm interested . I would also like to see a superbeetle version developed thats shimmy proof. i do see a market for that.

I would be very interested in a bolt on type of kit. But here is maybe your first hurdle. I have a flared car. My flares arn't necessarily the same as other manufacturers flares, cause I have an older body design. Most speedsters have no flares. That means tread width issues.

Can your design be offered in different widths? Ideally, custom tread widths?

Also, some of us may have considerable money tied up in existing wheels and tires that we want to maintain. Back spacing, wheel adapters, wheel spacers all contribute to different tread widths. Fitment of the tire "tight" to the wheel opening is important for that "just right look". Wheel spacers suck.

Would your product design have anti-roll bar facility? Is such a bar available in the marketplace?

Current steering boxes bolt to the top axle. Design is not good for bump-steer geometry. What would your steering system look like?

I really do hope you have a cost effective answer to these and other issues. Wish you all the best. Keep us posted on your progress.

Jan. 2007 issue of HotVW's has the VW bug with Eyeball Engineering's front A arm suspension setup and r&p steering on it. It's beautiful. Everything is adjustable!
I called them and asked about avalibility, but they said they didn't think they were going to make them anymore.
It would be a great update for Pan based VW's or Speedsters. Im Interested!
Greg

While we all think we would greatly benefit from suspension improvements, there are many things that can be done to improve handling without installing a new front end.

Like several of the other respondents I was hot to trot regarding an a arm front end. After spending a whole lot of time several realizations crept in to my thinking:

1) there is a great deal that can be done to the current suspension to make it better, sway bars, anti roll bars, z bars, lightening the brakes (moving from cast iron to aluminum hubs etc), making the chassis more rigid, improved shocks, installing a roll cage (chassis ridigity)

2) VW and Porsche did many thousands of hours of design work on what we got, do we really think we can do it better with a few hours CAD time and an engineering degree, no matter how good we are? By the way, much of the 356 suspensions are made up of parts with VW numbers on them and many are stamped "VW". And 356's are still very competitve today...

3)There have been litterally millions of cars built with what we have, so parts are available, cheap, readily modified, and racer parts are available

4)Cost to convert will be several thousand dollars best case, unless you have a complete machine shop, unlimited time, and access to a lot of "stuff", not to mention the inventiveness of Thomas Edison...

5) There is little real incentive to change out a front end unless you have developed your current set up to the max and and are overdriving it on a consistant basis. That implies you are competitively driving at 10 tenths...that is not a street activity....if you are auto crossing, hill climbing, and or doing track events, and you are finishing in the top 4 or 5, then you might just be a candidate for major suspension work like an A arm front end and all the work to develop, install, and maintain it. Most of us never, but never, push our cars to more than 6 or 7 tenths and that should never be on the street anyhow. (driving at 10 tenths, what is that you ask? I think it was Mark Donahue who described 10 tenths as "pushing the car through the corners at slightly over 200 mph, it was like driving on ice, and looking for more power".

6) If we want our cars to have suspensions like a Lotus or a Miata maybe the better solution is to change out cars.....we got 60 year old design and it works great for what it is.....

Sorry Guys,

I was out of business for the last few days. My computer took a major, well, you know what I mean. I am just now getting it back together. I lost almost everything on my hard drive. Very frustrating.

I had been meaning to compile the questions from all the sites/forums that I originally posted to and make one cohesive thread/post.

One thing for thought...My original intent, and I believe James and Bill (EyeBall Engineering) was to use as many VW parts as possible to keep the options open for everyone. I was hoping to keep the ball joints out VW. I also wanted to use a VW rack and pinion steering from the Rabbit/Jetta/Golf/Fox if at all possible. I guess what I am saying, I was hoping for a completely engineered bolt on cradle and a-arms using VW parts. I am sure that all the lowering/track width/adjustability concerns will be addressed later. This just started out to ask the feasibility and interest of having one available. The costs will be discussed later. As with any product, the more people signing up to buy one, the lower the cost !!!

Take care,

Kelly (Cohibra)

There are several manufacturers who have willingly stepped into the suspension swap-out field. Heidt comes to mind. They do suspensions for old pickups, chevy's etc. Pretty big market, excellent products and they are quite successful with what they do.

Frankly, the "retro-rod" thing is "in". An neat old style body with modern mechanicals is extremely desirable. What will modern suspension do for you on the street? It will give improved ride quality, steering response, handling particularly on rough pavement and allow modern (read BETTER) brakes. Those are all good things.

The way I figure it, a speedster is the perfect platform for a "retro-rod." Inherently cool, sexy body style. Now update the suspension, brakes and where possible, the drive-train - then kick back and enjoy.

There is no question that properly set up, the suspension found in 356/VW's can perform admirably. But do not shy from innovation. Porsche continually developed the 356 before replacing it with a whole new model, the 911, that evolved their car line. Even the venerable 911 was updated numerous times thru its very long lifespan before being replaced completely.

The way I figure it, a speedster with modern suspension beneath it is the thinking gentleman's elegant hot-rod.
angela

Angela gets it! Doesn't SAW have a double A-arm suspension at the front of their Subie speedster? Personally, I have always been disappointed when I see great articles about some new tube framed speedster, (Thunder Ranch is a recent example) only to find out that the same old beam front end is bolted on. If I am going to buy a modern frame, I want a modern suspension to go with it! It's not about just using it at 10/tenths driving conditions. It's about personalizing, innovating, and making it mine!

Most street rods have a newer "front clip" for a comfortable ride. Even Carrol Shelby admitted that most new Cobra replicas handle better than his original did, because that old tranverse leaf spring front end never was worth a sh*t!

HERE'S TO A DOUBLE A FOR THE 356A (please post pix, lot's of pix)!

Terry Hall
Smooth

Remember, the MetalCraft tube frame built in the 80's for the Speedster had a double A-arm front suspension with coilovers and rack and pinion steering. Nice setup.

A better handling car is always when you said rack My eyes perked up. I recall how they bragged on Georges car with a rack.

If they do make them I want at least one kit to rework for my superbeetle The early struts are crude.

I thought I'd revive this thread as I saw an advertisement on TheSamba.Com for EYEBALL ENGINEERING. It looks like they're going to produce their Bolt On double A arm coil-over front suspension kit for pan based VW's.
Take a look:
http://www.eyeball-engineering.net/

Greg

This would be a great addition but will certainly empty more than just one cookie jar. ~Alan

I wonder how much coin that goes for. It's moot for me anyway, as it won't fit the Beck frame.

I sent an email inquiry ~Alan

There can't be a down side to making these cars handle better, unless the price is more than many speedster owners are willing to pay. Personally, I'd put out the extra coin to get my IM to handle better.
RonO

You might also be interested in "a-arm.com". They have Beetle street applications, including widened beams, although they are primarily a BAJA buggy operation. Another "call for quote" but located in southern LA according to his area code.

Per the email reply I received, the magic number is .....$3,000.00
...I think I'll stick with a adjustable ball joint beam and sway bar and have serious change for a few egg sammiches.

ANOTHER "Egg Samiches" thing........

Makes you think of that camp fire scene in "Blazing Saddles"....

I think I'll sit down the other end of the Grandstand.....

With the Volvo and Saab guys (and gals).

hey, in real life I'm a Volvo guy so watch out there buddy!

It never ceases to amaze me when I plow the S80-T6 through tight high speed corners and the suspension does not just fold up in a ball of scrap tin. Kind of a tank with moderately descent handling.

Drove a Boxster today, scared the used car salesman, it felt too big. Since I already have big, I'm waiting for my little IM w/ 911 suspension.

Tomm

Alan,
I sent an email inquiry also. $3,000 is a bit too steep for me. Plus you have to alter or raise the Gas tank or make one to clear the Rack.
It looks like the Steering column has to be altered or adapted also.
He said the disc or VW brake set up that everyone already uses will work with their spindles. He mentioned that the spindles they use are dropped (4) four inches!
Me thinks the VW stuff is way OK when you consider the cost of changing. I think my Speedster will stay VW.

Greg

Well, I for one am glad to see the $3,000 price tag. Why? Because just two weeks ago I ordered a five inch wider VW adjustable beam for speedy, and its gunna cost way less than that! (If the A-Arm had cost $1,000, I might have slit my wrists.)

Interesting note - you can buy a variey of Mustange II based weld-in front suspension kits designed for for 30s and 40s street rods complete from spindle to splidle for $1,500.

David,
"Mustange II based weld-in front suspension kits designed for for 30s and 40s street rods complete from spindle to splidle for $1,500."

Do have any leads or website addresses for the MustangII based suspension kits you mentioned?

Greg

Greg,
These sources are from a variety of catalogs and magazines, sorry they are not direct links:

kugelkomponents.com
rbsauto.com
TotalCostInvolved.com
nolimit.net
totalcontrolproducts.com
cachassisworks.com
aaaartmorrison.com
heidts.com
classicperform.com
fatmanfab.com
jimweimerrodgarage.com
Rodparts Warehouse, 1-800-373-5773
Scott