Borla throttle bodies

A type 4 provides great torque a type I less and the power band IMO is quite a bit different and now that you tasted the subie torque with it's flat curve I would consider test driving a bit more AC just to make sure that is what you want in a powerband.  But your right it is much more period correct

The Borla throttle bodies are just that: throttle bodies. For $2k TO START.

You still need a pump, regulator, piping, ECU, wiring, and sensors. Oh yeah, and somebody to program it.

My whole system cost about $1300. If I had to pay for my CB throttle bodies, add $700.

So yeah, complete EFI system for the price of the ITBs. They are NICE, though. But worth THAT much? Not for me.

Not everybody's value equation is going to be weighted toward pure economy.

If it were me, Phil - I'd decide quickly, because a good air-cooled engine builder is going to be booked almost as far out as Special Edition.

I'd echo Ray's suggestion, but a nice 2270 T4 longblock is going to be $10K, before you ever buy exhaust, shrouds, or set up the EFI. To do that, I'd send the whole thing (dressed longblock) up to Mario Velotta at thedubshop.com in Washington State.

What you'd get back would be dead-nuts reliable, cool running, and stupid-cool.

T4 is defiantly where I should have gone, except that I'm a pipefitter and not a medical doctor. You are the MD - get the Type 4.

@Stan Galat posted:

Not everybody's value equation is going to be weighted toward pure economy.

Mine is definitely not. I guess it is, but isn't, as evidenced by all the CRAP I've done(Autocraft, Pauter, and JayCee parts come to mind here $$$).

My EFI equation was cheap, as far as EFI goes, but it was more about DIY for me. I didn't have to change my throttle linkage, manifolds, or add in the trigger wheel and crank sensor that were already there.

A 2270 type4 is nice, but it doesn't want to WIND out like a type1 does. It will be reliable and make great torque, but they run out of steam right around 5500 or so. Or at least Lenny's does.

How about a smaller type 4 that does rev nicely to 6500? Maybe 10% smaller and 150HP?

@DannyP posted:

A 2270 type4 is nice, but it doesn't want to WIND out like a type1 does. It will be reliable and make great torque, but they run out of steam right around 5500 or so. Or at least Lenny's does.

Isn't that just a function of the camshaft timing/duration?  Give any engine the appropriate amount of fuel, intake/exhaust volume and camshaft duration and it'll rev as high as you want- or am I missing something?

I'm pretty sure that Lenny has the same grind as me, Web 86b, albeit the type4 version. Honestly, I don't know his specs: rocker ratio, heads, compression etc.

All I know is 78.4 x 96mm, and Dellorto 45s. He's got a custom ceramic-coated exhaust from Tangerine racing, who are THE 914 guys on the east coast.

Then something isn't right for the displacement/combo.  You know yourself, @DannyP, that an engine with that much cam timing should make power to 6500 or more.

I agree. I admit my type4 experience is VERY limited. The last time I drove it it had SDS injection, which never really ran right. I believe Lenny MAY have had the rev limiter(spark) set pretty low, so that kind-of explains that I guess. I hadn't thought of this before. I forgot 

I’m more concerned about the reliability of the engine than I am the longevity. Sure if I go with Suby power I will get both. I just want the car to start when I turn the key and not leave me stranded by the side of the road. If I have to rebuild the engine at 30k miles so be it. If the type 4 is the way to go then maybe I should just save my pennies take a big breath and do it. Spending $3k more for a type 4 than a Suby is a little hard to swallow. Can someone build me a reliable type 1with the understanding that maybe it will need a rebuild after a few years?  I’m willing to accept that. But during those few years I need it to be reliable.
And then there’s the tranny. Suby comes with modern quiet 5 speed. If I go with type 1 or type 4 we are talking about a vw 4 speed or a very expensive Porsche 5 speed. I’m probably answering my own questions. But I’d really like to keep it old school. I think I’d be willing to live with the VW 4 speed if I could get a reliable type 1 engine that I don’t have to worry about or tinker with.  For the most part we are talking about 50+ year technology. So again probably answering my own question.

You ARE answering your own questions. Nothing is going to be as reliable, long-lived, or present as good a value as an EJ25

... but it'll never be an air-cooled engine.

You're going to have to pick a poison.

Fast, cheap, reliable: in the air-cooled world, you can pick any two.

Marty recommends dis.

I think Stan is right, you are answering your own questions !    

Living with a full subie for 5 years the drive train is definitely quieter but not as smooth shifting as say a VW GTI 6 speed tranny.   The tranny noise is lower than the Type I, but depending on the builder of the tranny and the reverse R&P you can have some whine, but hey that is 2000-2010 technology in Subie land.  You could order a full new gear set to help it out.

It is turn the key and go, if you ever throw a code, having yourself a Code reader for your Iphone and leaving it in the car so you can clear the codes in an emergency helps a lot as the system is easily reset and you can get home.

You will even have the option of using the stock ECU that learns and adjusts itself and wire up and install cruise control if you want it.  For a cruising car a near daily driver you do not have to wait for the engine to warm up, you just go.

Obviously I made that jump 5 years ago so I am drinking this Koolaid, what ever you choose we will enjoy your build ...  So .....

Phil I saw your Spyder at Carlisle. Really nice. To me, there is no good reason to go with an air-cooled engine, except for "period-correctness" points, which are a dubious proposition when running a Bug engine in a supposed "Porsche."

Now...I do like my little 1915 Type 1 in the Spyder. It looks, feels and sounds much more like what I imagine a proper 547-1500 engine would. The torque band is a little snappy—soggy on the down mow and pulls pretty good up high. The Weber 44s and Knecht air filters look right. The big black fan shroud looks sort of almost right. It's a whole concept.

But...remember? It ran like crap up there because I had a clogged idle jet. ITBs and EFI would cure that for $3,000 or so, sure.

—But so does the EJ22 in my other plastic clown car. More power, much more torque under the curve. A very interesting sound emanating from the exhaust. I don't have to tell you. And it's turn the key and go. As long as I don't lift the bonnet, no one knows. And how could they even guess?

In short, it takes a special kind of atavistic dedication to stick with the air-cooled options now.

Look forward to seeing your next one.

I'll just say that my exposure to an EJ25 at Carlisle was... invigorating.

Yup I get it. So no gold fan shroud. Just have to go with a gold air intake manifold.

I have to say, that after three speedsters with carbs, EFI is very nice, for all the benefits mentioned above.

@edsnova posted:

In short, it takes a special kind of atavistic dedication to stick with the air-cooled options now.

Is it getting warm in here? Yeah, I'm sure it's getting warm in here...

@Stan Galat posted:

Is it getting warm in here? Yeah, I'm sure it's getting warm in here...

I'm not sure how warm it's getting in here.  Henry's carburetted cars never gave me any problems, and I loved the idea of 'old school' fuel delivery in an air cooled engine.

But, when I had the chance to go to EFI, and keep air cooled, that was a good choice for me.

Getting two extra cylinders didn't hurt...

I've had type 1, a built type 4 and now an inline 4 banger waterpumper from a VW polo and I'm miffed that I just didn't go straight to the water pumper and saved all the aggro.

Period correctness comes crashing to the ground, when someone just taps the side of your car.

My engine lid, when raised is to show off how I crammed it all in and it looks like it belongs there. The radiator up front is the same story. I show it all off with pride, just ask anyone who has seen my junk on FB.

From the outside the car must look period correct............the underpinnings though, hell, anything goes in my books.

@flatfourfan Do you have pics of that inline in place you can share? thanks

It is interesting that someone who calls himself "flatfourfan" would have an inline 4 in his Speedster.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

It is interesting that someone who calls himself "flatfourfan" would have an inline 4 in his Speedster.

Agreed. Something like @aircooled going Subi.

It's possible to change one's screen name, to say "SA Gary", or "SoCal Bruce" by way of example, assuming one didn't (for one reason or another) want to use one's given name.

@Stan Galat, I also had the same thought about aircooled.

Hey hey hey. Doing this from my phone in the middle of the bush, so it may not work. Hey it worked.

As for flatforfan.... I still admire the engine layout for what it is and how they sound... So nah... It's good thanks.

All joking aside, @flatfourfan - what you've done with that car, in a part of the world where nobody is doing it is AMAZING!

The thing is Stan.... We have a local group that started with me Roger and manny.... I think that we're a good 15 strong now... Car prices are still a fraction of what the US prices are, but people now want and demand a proper reproduction with proper parts. Glad to know that some of what we're doing is rubbing off on others.

That's pretty amazing it all fits! I' trying to figure out how the tranny is hooked up...

Local company makes the adapter plate to fit this motor as locally its done a lot. Kit also includes clutch and new flywheel and ring gear. The biggest cow is the exhaust and intake...

wow neat!

Is this how Carey did the early Golf/Jetta Spyders before they went all subie all the time?  I always assumed they used the whole transverse engine/trans setup with new half shafts?  

Same thing with those “Spyder Evo” cars I asked about earlier that said they used a VW/Audi mill  

What can I say ???  My a$$ will still be aircooled inside and out but my car won't be anymore !  If I change to SoCal Bruce and move to Arizona should I become SoCalZona Bruce ?  I guess even my  new car will be air cooled.....with water in between there somewhere !  Maybe we could call it Ware-cooled since it's water and air cooled !  

I recall that overheating problems are caused by : water not cooling the engine, or air not cooling the water, or a combination of both.  An air-cooled engine at least eliminates half of the problem !    Just having fun while I'm waiting..................Bruce