Brad Penn Oil

I use 20W-50, but our temp range tends to be from 30-100F, with high humidity.  As for the number of quarts, it depends on whether or not you have an external oil filter and cooler.  My car is so equipped, and has a capacity of about 6 quarts, not all of which is drained in an oil change due to the plumbing.  I add about 5 quarts each change.

You have too many variables for an accurate guess....   External cooler size, additional sump (?) size, size and length of oil lines,ETC...   I usually fill to the appropriate mark on the dipstick, run it 2-5 minutes, wait 30 minutes, then top off...   Like checking tire pressure, checking your oil level will become something you do before starting the engine in the morning....  

Thanks!  I'm going to just order a case and keep the extra for the next oil change.

Now I just have to figure out what type of oil to order...

What are the pressures and what weight oil are you using now? When the motor is warmed up it should have approx 10 lbs pressure for every thousand rpm; 8-10 lbs at 800-900 rpm (idle), 25 lbs (or thereabouts) at 2500 rpm, and somewhere around 40 lbs at 4,000 rpm. This is important because the passage to the cooler is controlled by pressure, not temperature. If the oil pressure is too high (above 46-48 lbs, if I recall correctly) at highway speeds (fully warmed up), the motor acts like it is cold and the oil pressure relief piston blocks the passage to the cooler, causing overheating.

 

On a slightly different, but somewhat related note, the aftermarket dual pole VDO oil pressure sender will trip the idiot light when the oil pressure drops below 8-10 lbs, whereas the stock sender  only activates below 2-3 lbs. If you "upgrade" from the stock to the dual sender (when adding a pressure gauge) and then wonder why the oil light sometimes flickers at hot idle, there's no cause for alarm. Al

There's more than one Brad Pen-- get the correct Brad Penn---ONLY the green "racing oil". P/n 009-7119

 

For weight: 10W40 winter and  20W50 Summer (for Southern climates.)

 

It's not cheap--use Google to shop around.

Jack- the current thinking is that ambient air temps have less affect on oil weight than previously thought, with many people running the same weight oil in their car year-round. Think of it as what temps the engine is running at. All oils (even zero multi-weights) are too thick to lubricate properly when a motor first starts up, even in + 100 degree desert heat. A thinner oil will start flowing through the bearings sooner, so as long as warm pressures are in the range in my above post, you have the right weight oil for your motor.

 

There are many variables when building a motor that will affect oil pressure; bearing clearances and oil pump size being the obvious, but rod/crank side clearance, oil passage size in the case, the fittings and hose used for the full flow filter and/or extra cooler (Mark is really big on looking at the insides of fittings and reworking with a dremel for flow gains), condition of the pressure relief and control springs, wear in their respective bores and gear to oil pump body and cover clearance all have a say (have I left anything out?). This is why  it's important to not just copy what people around you are doing but listen to what the motor is telling you; it won't lie. Al

 

I'm not saying what you're doing is wrong; it just might not be right for the next guy.

And you're right; if you buy Brad Penn, make sure you get the right one. Their other oil doesn't have the zddp levels our motors require for proper cam/lifter protection.

Iron Butt Crosby has it right....  If your engine isn't "ALL OUT" then 10W40 and 20W50 will work for you seasonaly....   

That's exactly what I use in my engine, as recommended by Henry at IM.  He drove this car personally for a year or two before I bought it.

 

20w-50 summer; 10w-40 winter; and lots of ZDDP

Do you guys add additional zddp to the brad penn oil?

I don't.

zddp causes combustion chamber buildup&detonation issues, it's not wize to add it if the oil already has it. I dont use any at all, just synthetic oil&well built engine(5-20 weight).I do use it during assembly of the engine along with other cam lube.but only during assy. there used to be warnings on the containers of the additive stating this, but I havent read any labels in a while.but they do say for breakin.so if it's broken in (about 1 hour of run time) then it's realy not needed.if it kills the cam it probably would of done it any way.

 how many of you guys have ever had a cam in your hands???? an oe cam??? an aftermarket cam??? both at the same time??? well if you have had both at the same time you could see why there is a issue with cams going south in  a north bound car. can any body tell us what it is???come on go get some cams&have a look and tell your findings.

Well, the OE cams are slightly lighter, and "ring" clearer when you tap them with a hammer, telling me that they are forged and hardened all through, versus aftermarket cams that may be cast and are not as deeply hardened - called "Case Hardening" (because deeper hardening costs more $$$) and those go "dink" instead of "ding" when you hit them.  

 

The only time I used to see wear and galling on the cam lobes on OE VW's was on the 1,300 cc engines - but they had a lot of other problems, too.

 

BTW:  I've never been a fan of 20W-50 oil in summer in these engines for all of the reasons ALB mentioned.  Oil access to the oil cooler is governed by the amount of oil pressure.  Pressure stays up, cooling capability goes down.  I confirmed that with the TRG Porsche Engine guy who told me there was no reason that he could come up with for running heavier oil in the Summer, and a number of reasons NOT to (re-read ALB's post above).  I don't do a lot of really cold weather driving and start the engine carefully when I do, so I just run 10W-40 year round. Once I get a heater, I might be tempted to run 5W-30 in the winter, but I probably won't need it (I should have a heated garage by then).  Oh, and I now run Brad Penn Green, too, since I have a relatively inexpensive source about 15 minutes away.

My boxster was 10w 40 full synthetic year round here un sunny florida. I will be using brad penn 10w40 here year round too.

I'm fanatical about papering over the inadequacies of the ACVW oiling system. The oiling system (with all it's ridiculous bypasses, no oil to the 1/2 rocker-arms, etc.) in a Type 1 is by far the weakest link of the engine platform (much weaker than the funky crankshaft support). It was designed 80 years ago, at the dawn of the internal combustion age. It shows.

 

I've got a dry-sump pump and reservoir with an Accusump. I'm running a 96 plate oil cooler (fed through a Mocal sandwich plate) in addition to a Type 4 oil cooler on the case (being fed air by a DTM). I'm considering running a Setrab cooler (or coolers) up at the front of the car. The whole system is a Rube Goldberg plumbing nightmare with a 10qt+ capacity, all in an attempt to correct a really bad design in an otherwise elegant little engine.

 

What somebody runs in their modern, water-cooled car with tight tolerances is not relevant to the discussion, unless you are running a Subaru engine. I run 0w/20 in my Ford truck, but in an air-cooled Type 1 in the summer? The clearances inside the case "grow" as they heat up (the case is magnesium or AL, the crank is steel, etc.). What weight oil is needed to maintain an oil cushion on the bearings is a function of what bearing clearances the engine is running.

 

Tighter clearances can use lighter oil and still maintain pressure. 0W20 in a modern engine is one of the miracles of modern manufacturing. One of the real advantages of "Chevy" (Buick) rod journals is that the bearings can be had in .001 oversize increments, so the engine can be set up with nice, tight rod clearances.

 

The fact that the 3-gauge cluster (that looks soooo cool in a replica speedster) has no pressure gauge means most of us are flying blind here. Picking an oil without knowing what's going on inside the engine is really just a guess (and not even an educated one). I'm not saying 10w30 or 10w40 won't work in our engines, but I AM saying that if you've got no oil pressure gauge, you have no idea what's going on as you drive down the road. If the oil pressure light is steady on at idle on a hot day, you have no idea if it's 10 psig or 0 (I didn't know that Al, thanks!).

 

Everything's a trade-off-- ZDDP leaves a residue, but it also protects camshafts. Light oil goes to the cooler nicely-- but if I've got no hot oil pressure, cool oil (that doesn't create and oil cushion) doesn't do any good.

 

I've been running 20w50 Brad Penn in the summer and 10w30 in the cooler months. I'd love to get by with 10w30 all the time in the newly reborn 2332 cum 2276, but I suppose I won't know if I can until I try on some 95 deg day when I'm hammering it hard. If I cannot, I will not be surprised, but it will not be for lack of trying.

 

Your engine will tell you what it wants if you have the means to hear it.

 

Forewarned is forearmed.

well as for the cam shafts, thier both cast, some cams are chilled some arnt, but the diff is in the machining(yes there also probably a slightly diferent mix of material too) the oe cam has the sides of the lobed machined at about a 30-45 degree angle, so there is no sharp edges.the after market cams are not machined at all at the edges, just rough cast& not straight either.so they have a very sharp jaged edge, witch if you know any thing bout cams, there not machined 90 degrees to the shaft, they are at an angle so that jaged edge is higher than the rest of the lobe witch makes for a nice place for the lifter to have lunch.I always deburr the edges of the lobes so there isant any sharp edges to dig in or wear away at anything. it's an easy prosess and I have never had a cam go south since I started doing this many years ago. As with everything, it's in the prep& details. why would vw take an extra 8 machining steps on thier cams if it wasent needed?? and they didnt have much spring pressure either or agressive ramps.

Stan

Just wondering becuase i have only talked to the motor builder for my 1915cc and then the porsche dealer on my boxster but does what you use have anything todo with size of motor?  This is good learning info for me.  My first speedster was a 1600cc motor and the 10w40 worked fine i guess.  Never had a problem that I know of.

as far as the oil system inadequacies & relief valves,I see no issue with them execpt for adding the extra oil gally&sloting the lifter bores for fultime oiling of the rockers on both sides.(both sides get the same oil any way,but it's a timed spirt, not fulltime pressured) and I see no reason to run racing oil(witch is racing oil not intended for long term passanger car usage).I just use 5-20 synthetic and dont wory about it(usualy castrol,valvoline,pensoil,quakerstate.I often mix them so I get the propertys of each,but not always)Ive never had an oil related issue,never had any oil filter blowing off issues, and it spins just fine when freezzing outside.

    the oil pressure relief is nessary,all automotive engines have them, most are in the pump, but there are farther down the line but that isant an issue, it is very nice that you can get to them, most engines you cant. and for the cooler bypass, well it isant realy an bypass, it just opens another main oil gally to ensure the oil gets to the bearings when thick&cold&mot restricted by the oil cooler with dosent flow well with thick oil in it.it also reduced the pressure spike the cooler sees.and it lets the oil get some temp in it a bit faster so it thins out sooner witch saves horsepower.yes incase you guys didnt know that thick oil you like to run for some reason(probably a 60 year old reason) is hurting you power&mpg and not doing you oil pump drive tang any good either,Ive seen them about totaly wore off from too thick of oil being used, and when it gos??? gess what?? no oil pressure at all& a plie of scrap that used to be your motor, unless you catch it in time. if any of you have ever primed an engines oiling system with an electric drill you know how much power it takes to spin that oil pump. you can burn up a 3/8" drill in a hurry trying to do it.and the 1/2: drill is kinda hard to hold onto.I just dont get why people think you have to have thick oil.oh...it's air cooled...try again. not trying to step on any toes or piss any body off, but modern oil isant what it was oh so many years ago.

   1 more thing to think about. ever suck soda through a straw??? how about a thick shake?? your oil pump has to suck it up befor it can pump it out.and when it's too hard to suck it just cavitates and not much is being pumped,and air dosent lub for squat.

Maybe you should wait to see if my engine blows up.

I dont see much problem with coler up front as long as you dont run to thick oil in it and have an oil thermostat in line neer the engine(but have the oil be filtered all the time,never bypass the filter in any way) the thermostats dont open fast&close fast,infact the ones Ive seen dont close off the cooler at all, they just open a pasage way that bypasses it,( the cooler bypass in the engine does the same thing) but it's still open so as the oil warms the cold thick oil in the lines&cooler will slowely flow&be replaced but the warming oil,but at a slower rate untill the oil is up to temp&the thermostat is open.be sure to install the tstat properly so it works right.

Stan...what are you referring to in your discourse 6  levels up about Soobs in your third para, re: tight tolerances no relevance etc. thanks.

David:

 

What I said was,

 

"What somebody runs in their modern, water-cooled car with tight tolerances is not relevant to the discussion, unless you are running a Subaru engine."

 

Your Subaru is a modern, water-cooled car with tight tolerances, so the latest oil recommendations is relevant to you. Running thinner oil (as modern cars all do) is entirely appropriate for you. You don't need oil with a big ZDDP-additive package either.

 

I was trying to point out that just because a guy runs a certain oil in his Mustang, or Jetta, or Boxster (or Subaru) doesn't mean it's the best choice for an ACVW.

That is super helpful to me. I was wondering why my light would light at idle after a highway run suddenly after I put the gauge in. Now I know.

Marksbug is schoolin' y'all here. Schoolin' me, anyway.

Just as a point of interest on His Eminence's comment on Subys;  I just yesterday did an oil change on my Wife's Subaru 2.5L Outback and it takes a little under 5 qts of 5W-20 Synthetic only oil.  Try running that stuff in my old-school 2,110 and the oil pressure would probably be around ten pounds at 4 grand rpm with what little was left after the rest leaked out.  

 

But then, the rod, main and cam bearing clearances on the 2,110 are probably 4 times wider than the Suby, too, and THAT's what makes the difference in oil pressure.  Plus, they get a significant mileage boost from running the thinner oil and the "Gum-mint" likes that, too.  

 

Like Mark mentioned up above - Try spinning an oil pump with a drill when you're running molasses-like 20W-50 and it's as if it were full of honey and you're drill will overheat.  Couple that with an ACVW oil supply circuit that diverts oil away from the cooler when the pressure is too high (because the pressure regulator thinks the oil is cold and thick) and you get over-heating, too.

 

I thought you decided to call me "His Immensity" (perhaps you've seen my expanding girth?) before Rich came in the room and made us pipe down, Gordon.

 

Regarding appropriate oil for the ancient engine vs oil for the modern one-- it's all about tolerances, and the ability to hold 'em. It's a fine line between not thick enough, and too thick. Every guy is going to have to find his Goldilocks-zone to balance oil pressure with viscosity.

I was trying to be tolerant......and respectful......But since I've lost 10% of my body weight since Christmas (and still losing), I guess I can call you "His Immensity" and get away with it.  Since I'm only 5'-6", almost everybody is bigger than me.......I'm jus' sayin......

 

Where the heck IS Drewek, anyway?  Think he found reverse, yet?  And that dimmer-on-the-directional-stalk-thing can be pretty cornfusing, too........

I will remember that line, Stan!

I sometimes forget that this motor platform was one of the first attempts at economy mass production. What worked for a motor that originally saw 3500 or so rpms tops is woefully inadequate when we turn 50-100% more revs and produce 4-5 times more power, and we have to remember that as we work on "fixes" so they will live at higher rpms. We do things with these motors that is so far beyond the original design parameters, the engineers could not have forseen the issues we deal with to make these hp, high revving monsters live.

 

And guys; the rest of what Stan wrote (and a lot of Mark's points) is all gold. A lot of good info there... Al

so just what is this tolarances&clearances you guys are talking about??there the same weather water or air cooled for the most part.well at least the pressurized bearings are.if your vw motor has 4 times what you suby has then there is you problem, find another builder, build it right. with that said I dont know what a suby bearing clearance is , probably around .001-.00175 on rods, and the vw should be about the same, what seems to be missed is the water or air cools the heads&cylinders ,NOT THE CRANK&RODS!!!  valve stem clearances will be diferent as the suby will be cooled by water witch will pull more heat out, but that is not oil pressure fed. the main bearings are not water cooled either, and they both have an aloy case/block that will expand very close to eachother as it's the oil that is doing the cooling inside there.and if there both running 200 degree oil temp then they both have about the same expansion.

      hear is a good exzample for you. a 351 ford motor yes a v8.take 2 of them machine them exzactly the same, same std automotive clearances. now put 1 in a truck and haull ass across the county for an hour. now take the other and put maring exhaust manifolds on it and stick it in a boat and go for a ride accross the bay kinda quickly. how far will each motor get befor 1 seezzeess up? witch one seezzed? why did it seezze?they were both water cooled.what was rong?witch motor has dead bearings?

1 more thing to add to misconceptions. the oil cooler is never shut off in a acvw from high oil pressure or any thing else. the"bypass" valves are a pressure differential type of valve.just high oil pressure dosent do it unless you have a restriction in the cooler circut, and then it just opens another path in addtion to the oil cooler thats IF the need for more volume is needed than can pass through the cooler. remember the hunny sucking through a straw? well try it with 2 or more straws, it's still hard but you get a lot more so the amount vs thepower required has made it easyer and you get what is needed. where just 1 straw you will starve to death....and if your bearings starve???DEATH. the cooler is never bypased,just an extra gally is opened for pressure spikes&restrictions.vw did get this one right, but it is vastly missunderstood on it's workings.if you have ever looked at a vw engine case you will notice the oil gallys are not the same size, they are tapered, in the early cases there are many diferent sizes till vw got it to what it needed to be for what the motor was ment to do, and they do it very well at 2x the power3x the power4x the power with just a few updates to the oiling system. I think the last update vw did was around 72 on the oliling systems.untill they started using hydrolic lifters then a few more updates but not much, mainly a biger oil pump