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Brake Conversion/Bleed Question

GTmanGTman

Hello All

 

I just finished installing a 5 wide front brake kit on my 2000 Vintage Speedster, replacing the 4 lug disc set up to complete my conversion from 4 lugs to 5 wides all around.  Great look that I have been wanting to do for the last 2 years.

 

Since I didn't open the rear brake lines, and only opened the fronts to remove the old calipers and switch out the old rubber brake lines for SS lines, my thinking is that I should only have to bleed the front brakes.  I noticed that while the brake fluid in the front compartment of the master cylinder went dry during the change out, the brake fluid in the rear compartment of the master cylinder stayed at the proper level.  So I bled the fronts, got what felt to be a good pedal, and went for a "shake down" drive.

 

I ask because when driving the car I noticed I was getting a spongy and low brake pedal after bleeding the fronts.  I may have to adjust the rear shoes (after installing the new 5 wide brake drums), but this shouldn't effect a spongy feeling only maybe raise the pedal some.

 

Any help on the brake bleed/spongy brake pedal issue would be appreciated.

 

Also, if anyone has done this conversion in the past using the So Cal Imports or Empi 5 wide front brake kit, can you please confirm that the shorter of the two pads for each wheel goes at the inside of the disc (adjacent the piston) and the longer of the two pads outside of the disc.  I bought the So Cal Imports kit but it came with no instructions as to disc placement.

 

Thanks, Grant

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Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member

Sometimes, with a disk/drum combo, if everything isn't up to snuff adjustment-wise you'll get a funny pedal.

 

If you're getting a spongy pedal, I would go ahead and adjust your rear shoes up to the new drums and then bleed all four in this order:

 

1.  Passenger Rear

 

2.  Driver Rear

 

3.  Passenger front

 

4.  Driver front

 

If you have a pressure bleeder, I would use it - far better and easier than having someone pump the pedal.

LfepardoLfepardoSeattle, WA, 2013 VS

i had a similar issue a year back... This is what I got from The So Cal guys... did the trick... Brakes work great?

 

----------

 

Most common installation problems with speedsters- pan based (VS, CMC, JPS, IM)

 

AIR TRAPPED IN THE LINES/SYSTEM;

1) Symptom;  after initial install--  Long travel and soft pedal with wide 5 conversion AC industries front disk kit and rear drums.

 

Source of problem:

1) Air gets trapped in main line, near torsion housing in the tunnel. Typically there is a hump/high point in the line at this point.

 

2) Air can also be trapped in the caliper, as location of the bleeder screw on the front calipers isn’t at the top of the calipers

 

 

To Properly bleed this system for Speedster cars using ACI wide 5 disk kit:

 

1) Instructions to bleed VW pan based Speedsters:

-  Bleeder (bleeder screw)  needs to be highest point during the bleeding process.

- JACK CAR ONE WHEEL AT A TIME during the bleeding process.

          - Start with the Passenger rear, then Drivers rear, then Passenger front, finally Drivers front.

 

Note:  if you jack car up leveled with all four wheels off ground, bleeder screws will be lower than Master Cylinder, and lower than lines traveling through the tunnel (i.e.- lowest point in the system).   Air could get trapped in high spots, causing long pedal travel and softness in system.  If you have long travel and softness in your brake pedal, you have air in your system.  ACI 4bolt and 5 wide disk systems will have similar brake travel if installed properly.

         

 

2) Instructions to get air out of the front calipers.  Should be done in conjunction w/ 1), if 1) alone did not resolve the soft pedal/long travel problem:

 

Symptom;  after initial install--  Long travel and soft pedal with wide 5 conversion AC industries kit.

 

Problem: Design flaw in calipers.  You still have air in your system. How? 
- The location of the bleeder screw on the front calipers isn't at the top of the caliper. Air bubbles can get trapped in the caliper. 

 

To correct:

- You need to un bolt the caliper from the bracket and rotate it up to the 12.o'clock position on the rotor.

-  With the caliper at the 12 o'clock position and still on the rotor, blead the brakes as normal. 

 

- Start at the right rear, then left rear, right front , and left front.  (BEST TO JACK CAR ONE WHEEL AT A TIME to ensure bleeder is at heist point in system.  If you jack entire car leveled, bleeder will be lowest point in car and air could get trapped in high spots)

 

-When you get all the air out, then put the calipers back in their brackets. 

 

After bleeding the system;


- visually confirm there are no leaks anywhere (wheel cylinders in rear, rubber lines, fittings, etc.) 
- confirm rear brakes have been adjusted properly 
- visually confirm new calipers are functioning properly and moving fleely. 
- confirm front pads are properly seated and moving as intended.

 

Another thing I'd try - pull up on the e-brake a few clicks to see if the pedal improves. If it does, it may point to the rear brakes not being adjusted just right or possibly a brake bias issue.

 

----- This solves most of the “Trapped Air Problems”  experienced by Speedster/VW owners during the installation of our kits.  Normal brake travel should be no different between our 4bolt and 5 bolt disk brake hits.

 --------------

 

Last edited by Lfepardo
LfepardoLfepardoSeattle, WA, 2013 VS

by the Way, car is looking great Grant.

 

i notice your aero mirror has some corrosion,  if you are looking at replacing it and taking advantage of the Sales, call stoddard ( east coast sales office 1800- 342-1414, not west coast)....

 

 

Though not listed or available on their web site, The east coast guys will sell just the mirror head... 25$ - for convex style mirror - will give you a little better visibility.

 

NLA-731-002-02  "Head, Aero Pont 26". Is the part number/ description

 

cheers

 

 

Last edited by Lfepardo
GTmanGTman

Thank you all of the helpful input, instructions and comments.  All are very appreciated, especially the detailed instructions regarding bleeding issues with the So Cal Imports front brake kits.

 

I am planning to adjust the rear shoes, as I am sure there is some room here for adjustment after just changing out the old 4-lug drums with the new 5 lug drums.

 

Next I will r&r my rubber rear hoses with SS ones that I have so I am running SS hoses front and back.  This will force a complete wheel by wheel bleed following the instructions above, and paying special attention to the 12 o'clock positioning of the front calipers.  The bleed ports look close to at the top, but I am sure there is a pocket there for air.

 

I am just happy that all parts fit correctly with no rubbing issues with the new wheels and tires, and that I finally got the look I wanted for the car since I bought it a few years back.  Just need to dial the brakes in and then I am set.

 

Again, thank you all for the input and also the comments on my car.  It is not perfect, but fun to drive, and with respect to some of the chrome trim or parts, I actually like the patina.  I gives the car some older character.  Also, I live by the beach so have learned to live with a little rust. 

 

Thanks, Grant

 

 

MangoSmoothie.caMangoSmoothie.ca

only add i have to the above is - a few years ago i discovered pressure bleeding brakes.

 

do it quickly and by yourself.

 

if you have an air compressor with a regulator (and gauge), pump it up and turn the air pressure down to 3psi.

 

get an extra master cylinder cap and tap it with a barbed fitting and connect to air hose. i use a zip tie to keep the air valve opened.

 

this essentially adds 3psi of air to the top of the brake fluid.  obviously make sure it full of fluid (so you are not pushing air though the system)

 

then go tot he furthest wheel and bleed.  then do as normal.  keep an eye on the fluid level because if you push air though, you need to start again. 

 

all said and done (with the car on jack stands and wheels off), i can bleed brakes, by myself in ~10 minutes.

Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member

I used to make up pressure bleeders and give them to the raffle at the Carlisle gathering.  Made them from a 1/2 gallon ACE Hardware bug sprayer with a recycled VW brake fluid reservoir cap attached to the hose and a "special" reservoir fitting that self-drained and left just the right amount of fluid in the tank when you're done. 

 

I've tried uploading the user manual so maybe you can make one, too.  Total cost was something like $20 bucks and they work like a charm.

 

gn

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GTmanGTman

Hello All:

I bled the brakes all around using the two-man system, and feel that the rear brakes are very solid but the fronts with the new wide 5 calipers are still a little spongy.  I saw the earlier post about moving the calipers to the 12:00 position for bleeding, but also see that the existing bleeder is already at the top of the caliper.  I suppose I can try repositioning the calipers on the rotor to the 12:00 position and then bleed some more to see if there is any difference.

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El FrazooEl Frazoo Supporting Member

Gordon,

Again, Five Cent Racing has the gen-U-ine goods.  I like the pressure bleeder, and will shamelessly copy same for future use.

As to the thread here, and getting good pedal (is that like getting good head??), my advice would be to go for discs in the back too.  Why fool around??  I have 4X discs, and there is nothing better.

One of these days I'm going to "get it" about these wide five wheels everyone else in the universe is so crazy about.  The only advantage I can see is that they have studs vs the silly lug-bolts from the VW.  A mild PITA to R&R w/ the bolts vs. studs, but doable.  And I guess they look cool if you lose a hubcap, or just don't like to run w/ same.  Do they add unsprung weight to the suspension? Seems like they might.

ElFrazoo out.

GTmanGTman

Hello All:

After a number to two-man brake bleeding cycles around that car I was able to get a decent pedal.  I was just hoping for a little more in going to the SS braided brake lines all the way around.  I suspect that there may be a little air in the front brake circuit, but I can live with it for now. 

It was great to get the car off of the jack stands, wheels on, and motoring yesterday.  It was great weather in Southern California and great to be driving the car with the wide 5s that I had wanted since buying the car used in 2012.  I think the wide 5 wheels, drum skinz, and 185s transform the look and feel of the car to something a little less civilized and pedestrian than the 4 lugs and dish hubcaps.  The tires alone make the car feel more planted.

Today I completed the reassembly by reinstalling my front sway bar.  After driving the car around town yesterday without the front sway bar, I can tell you the immediate difference felt with the sway bar installed.  The car front end definitely feels much more planted and dialed in/locked down with the front sway bar back installed, and the new 185s (over the old 165s) I am sure contribute to this.

Here is a pic from earlier this morning.  I am very happy with the wide 5 conversion. 

Now its happy motoring, and looking for the next project to tackle. 

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Thank you for all the helpful input, comments and suggestions during the process.

Grant

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