Brakes? What brakes?

Can you lock them up?

Brake lines might be spongy/soft.

Brand new car?  Brakes bedded in properly? You are correct that front discs only should be adequate.

As CrHemi said old (guess even new) rubber brake lines to the calipers and the drum tend to expand like a balloon under pressure from the fluid. Quality stainless steel mesh covered lines often with with teflon coated lines don't balloon like old rubber ones. I used silicon brake fluid ages ago and found that it doesn't compress like normal synthetic fluid - lasts forever but took more pedal.  More weight in front might help (larger gas tank/battery/tools).  Larger displacement master cylinder might help too.

Yes it's brand new. If I get a bigger bore
Mc I'm afraid pedal pressure will be even higher
The pads aren't bedded for sure but I'm thinking an aggressive soft pad might help
Has anyone got a brand of pad to get?

I'm not sure how much better the brakes are on a VS compared to what they are on a CMC Speedster or a traditional VW but I just got my first bug this past month and was certain that the brake system was not engaging because it felt like I had to slam on the brakes to get them to engage even though it has an upgraded system. After a week of driving with the car I finally got used to the brake response and when I get back into my other cars I realize how far brake technology has come since these older systems. Not sure how much improvement you'll get out of updating your pads but it could just be a case of getting familiar with the car and having to brake sooner.

.................call Kirk.

It should not feel scary. With the back shoes adjusted right--with a little drag--the pedal ought to be medium high and pretty hard.

 

And the car should stop better than any 1960s Plymouth that's not set up for NASCAR.

 

I think you need to bleed 'em again.

My brand new vs brakes were non existent as well.  Had to have them bled, adjusted brake pedal and because I had 4 wheel disc we had to have vs send the correct larger master cylinder.  The one that was on was for 2 wheel disc. 2 trips to mechanic to fix.  Pain in the butt when they should be perfect (here we go again) before they they leave vs.  it's a safety thing for god sakes.  But you probably just need a good bleeding and adjustment of the pedal and then give them some time to settle in...

 

spmewhere in here is a good write up on how to seat the pads and break em in...

 

good luck.

the car only weighs 1800 lbs -- it should stop on a dime.  If pedal is not hard and the effort to come to a prompt halt is excessive, ,then I'd say you have a serious problem that needs attention.  I would (and did) opt for disc brakes at all four corners.  Properly set up, they work like a champ.

My CMC has drums all the way around. I rebuilt the complete brake system it will lock up all four wheels without much of an issue. Somethings not working correctly on your VS. Check all the things mentioned I'm sure you will find one or more small issues in the brake system. NEW brake fluid is a must !!!!!!!!

I called Kirk today and he said that because it has front discs only, that he has just one master cyl that will fit so it can't be the wrong one.  The car is new so it has fresh fluid in it.  We bled it and only got a little bit of air out of it, however I think it is still a little spongy.  I did adjust the rears up a little more.  I remember that Wednesday when I was driving it I almost overshot a corner so when I did really step on them the inside rear wheel did lock up a little but I doubt I could slide the front wheels.  Kirk said he has never ran into this problem before so couldn't help. I asked him to see if there are any softer pads available and he doesn't know. I wonder what Beck does?  I am going to do my own research on pads but I don't know what the front calipers.are.  Karmann Ghia maybe?  If any one knows what the calipers are could you let me know?  Thanks, Frank.

 

Please tell me this isn't new bought from Kirk and he is telling you that he doesn't have a fix for the car he just sold you?

"Bleeding can require patience and repetition to get the trapped air out of the system."

 

Look at the orientation of your calipers & bleeders.

 

Go to about 17:00 on that vid--and especially starting around 18:20--and pay close attention.

 

Agreed, though, that Vintage ought to just do this right before shipping the G-D cars. Some day someone is going to get hurt and Kirk is going to get very sued. 

I think Kirk uses a Brazilian manufacture, the name escapes me for the time being.

If its spongy re-bleed again.  There should be no spongy in a brake system.  If air is trapped in the master cylinder it may take a while to force out.  In other words, it may run clear for a while then get bubbly again.  Brakes are way too important to be spongy and unpredictable.

Frank

I think he uses Varga.

Its kind of hard for him to fix it when I'm 1300 miles away. I'm going to try bleeding again as the take up distance on the pedal is excessive. Maybe I need to put a 10 lb residual valve in for the rear brakes, I wish I knew if there was one in there already. 

 

Frank, are your calipers gold-colored castings with no identifying numbers on them? If so, they're probably EMPI, like 90% of the parts on current VS's. EMPI used to source their calipers from a company called Varga, but now has their own made in (where else?) China.

 

I've got the four-wheel discs on my 2013 VS, and they stop OK. But after driving modern cars for the past 20 years, I too was abruptly reminded of what straight manual brakes feel like. It takes some getting used to. And you've got to plan ahead a little more.

 

There was a time when driving was a manly, manly thing that took some muscle. Then car companies realized they could sell more cars to women if they gave the controls a lighter touch. In my twisted opinion, it's been all downhill since then. I think the power assist on most modern cars is way too much, making it too easy to lock up the brakes in a panic stop. Once your tires are skidding, stopping distance is much longer.

 

But if you're locking up the rears before the fronts, there could be a problem. Depending on which master cylinder you have, you might have something called a 'residual valve' that needs to be there for drum brakes, but should be removed for discs.

 

Here's an EMPI video that explains it. Check out the parts that start at 12:00 and 15:50.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rustBbto50

 

I really know very little about this stuff, so maybe someone who knows more will jump in.

 

------------------------ Later edit:

 

Oops - a few comments here since i started typing. I see others have made some of my points first.

 

 

 

Frank, you are more patient man than I, for "Last night I took my VS for its maiden voyage" and the brakes, basically don't work.  What in the hell is VS doing?   Or not doing as the case may be.  No car should leave a shop without properly functioning brakes.  ( No shakedown cruise?)

 

A side note, what I find to be very strange is that Vintage Speedsters has NO PRESENCE on this forum in any manner, yet Beck is here, helping out on a regular basis. Resting on your laurels is not how to grow your product.

 

 

I am not familiar with what setup a VS uses, but it has been my experience that disc kits that use a stamped caliper bracket rather than a forged one tend to flex and diminish braking quality substantially.

I have Wilwood dual caliper brakes on the front and CB RotoHubs on the rear.  Stopping quickly from highway speed takes a fair amount of pedal pressure, compared to my other vehicles, which have power brakes, but boy, does she haul down quickly.

These cars can be made to stop quickly. One of the first things I'd do is pull the front pads and scuff them up with sandpaper (wearing a mask, of course).  My wife's car wasn't braking like it should and after I scuffed the pads the braking improved noticeably.

If the pads are new, were they broken in properly?  If not, they need to be.

Frank, buy some speed bleeders. The air in the fluid is not always obvious until its collective (large bubbles). I installed speed bleeders on my 911 and it left me speculating at how much time I had wasted over the years bleeding brakes.

 

At $13 dollars a set (pair) it really reduces creeper time and they work.

 

To recite the alphabet correctly one must start at the beginning.

 

 

 

Update on the brakes. Didn't need to spend any money, just re bled the front calipers and adjusted the rear drums up a little more and they now work acceptably.  I no longer have the feeling that I will plow into any one in front of me.  The pedal is still a little spongy but I think the more I drive it the brakes will get more bedded in and some of the sponginess will go away.  Thanks for all the insight guys!

Jack up car and with the E brake off  have someone press the brake pedal and see if you can still hand turn a wheel by hand.

Then confirm you have fluid at all points starting with the rear port on the master cylinder and work your way back through the system confirming that you have cylinder and caliper movement...takes time but you'll find the source for lack of decent stopping. Wonder if a 2 lb. in line residual valve may help? 

2lbs for discs, 10lbs for drums.

We did check and the wheels all lock when you press the pedal.  I'm not sure if the MC Vintage puts on has a residual valve in it already. I wonder if you can tell without disassembling it?

Ron;

 

Do they still use asbestos in brake pads?  Or are the replacement materials equally as toxic?

 

Thanks,  Art

One more bleed should do it then.

You might be right Ed. I'm going to bleed them once more and try the old Corvette trick of tapping the calipers with a dead blow hammer to dislodge any bubbles that might be trapped.

Are you pumping the pedal to bleed them or do you have access to a pressure bleeder?  

 

Once in a while I hear of a system that will only purge properly with a pressure bleeder.  Shortens up the time to bleed all around, too - typically you're done in 20 minutes or so for all four wheels.

Question... Do you have free play when the pedal is at rest?

This is the stock setup with RPVs: http://www.vwtrendsweb.com/pro...part_5/photo_02.html

 

Most likely yours has no RPV. Long pedal that feels a little spongy at the bottom with a high and hard second pump is a good indication you need an RPV. Especially if you notice pedal travel gets significantly longer the longer you wait between pumps.

Yes we are pumping to bleed. Yes I have a little free play, just enough so I know the mc is all the way back. When I let the car sit and push the brake pedal it doesn't pump up any more on the second or third push.  They work pretty well now.  Not perfect but acceptable. I'm going to try some more things later. At least it will stop now.