Received my new VS (AZ) last Friday, took it to the DMV (Calif) for registration on Saturday...Had an appointment. Had no problems at all...Justin (VS) created a California title with the description of my vehicle as a "1968 VW"..I did not have to register it as a Specialty Constructed Vehicle.. Collected my personalized license plates at the same time! And away we went with no hassles.
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Congrats on your purchase!....and yes, it tends to go quite smoothly when registered as a VW. And your declared value for your registration could also coincide with the cost of a VW bug.
Even if you are fooling California DMV by registering your replica as a VW, you need to be truthful with your insurance company as to what you own. You may need to provide pictures. None of us need to be denied coverage in case of an accident, especially an injury accident, due to illegal registration.
Got insurance through Barlow's as a 1957 Porsche Speedster Replica...American Modern Insurance company...
Congrats on your purchase!! Just in time for Christmas!!
And guys - I don’t know that he is necessarily “fooling” the California DMV by registering it as a VW . . . . . . west coast guys could maybe clarify that -
I went through through the registration process not too long ago here in Colorado, multiple trips to the DMV, spoke to five different DMV representatives and got ten different answers. It was like I was trying to register the Moon Rover. To say that I was given inconsistent and contradictory information would be an absolute massive understatement. Had to get a VIN verification due to out of state title (no big shakes, really), and during three separate visits I watched the DMV folks bounce around like a fart in a space suit trying to decide whether my car was a VW, special construction needing an ‘assigned VIN’, a ‘kit’ car, or ??. I quietly listened, learned, and ultimately discerned that a ‘certified’ VIN verification (done by a designated State Patrol Trooper) seemed to carry more weight with the DMV office folks. I just wanted to get the damn thing legally registered and get plates on it. So off I went, made an appointment at the local State Patrol Barracks and . . . . .
The Trooper doing the inspection had a variety of questions, not the least of which was “not IF I had had any issues with the DMV, but how MUCH of a problem they were”. Turns out even HE was frustrated trying to get straight policy answers and guidance from them. After checking lights, (including high beams, brake lights, turn signals, back up lights) and the horn, asking a few more questions about the car (“is body metal or fiberglass?”), running the VIN number through his system, he then filled out the paperwork indicating that I had a VW with an out of state, non-conforming VIN (because of the age of the donor pan).
I made sure that my insurance card (Hagerty’s) matched his description exactly (‘VW Speedster’), went back to the DMV but this time to a different office location. I was in and out in about 15 minutes with my new Colorado title, registration, and collector vehicle plates. Amazing.
By the way, when I first spoke to the Hagerty’s folks about a policy they were very familiar with these replicas and knew exactly what I was wanting to insure. They did require pictures and a fairly detailed description to initiate the policy, but were also very accommodating when I was struggling with the registration process.
Nicely done! My VS is registered as a 1968 VW here in California and I’ve had zero DMV issues (aside from paying exorbitant fees!).
I found reasonable insurance through Hagerty...
30West:
That's pretty much what I found out here in Massachusetts (which has a process and set of regs as bad as California - probably worse).
Going in to the process, ask around of the local car people (VW club, Cobra/Factory Five people, etc) as to which of the DMV/Titling/State Police people are the ones most likely to be helpful (and which ones to avoid). You could even ask at your local DMV office - I found them to usually be clueless in the process of registering a replica simply because they almost never, as individuals, see one go through. BUT, they usually know someone who might have the right experience and can refer you or call them over to help.
Some of them, like the State Cop who did my new VIN inspection, have to deal with shady people doing "Salvage" restorations on a daily basis and often come across as hard-a$$e$ because, well, that's what's required in that job and yes, they have difficulties dealing with different people in the DMV and even they have their short list of "go-to" people (a couple of them told me so and one provided a reference).
If you have somehow documented the process you went through to get registered in Colorado, I would suggest that you clean it up so others can understand it and publish it on here as a How-To for other people trying to get a pan-based car (or a more modern tube-frame car) legally registered in Colorado and we can add it to the list. I have attached a WORD copy of my pan process as an example and I think we have something for California but I can't put my fingers on it right now - I have a well-written copy of a Frame-based process for Mass., too, if anyone needs it. If we, as a group, get something like this going for as many states as need it, THAT would be a terrific benefit for new members of the "Madness". Can't think of a better service to this group.
gn The Speedstah Guy from Massachusetts
30 West,
Of course they are "fooling" Californai DMV. The law in question, California Vehicle Code Section 580, is not ambiguous or difficult to decipher. If the vehicle no longer resembles the donor car, it must be registered as a specially constructed vehicle, irrespective of the donor VIN.
In defense of the DMV clerks, California registers over 35,000,000 vehicles. Since there are only 500 SPCN permits/year, the chances are 70,000/1 against a clerk having SPCN registration experience. That's why it's important, as Gordon stated, to try to find a local DMV office in your area that has a clerk with SPCN knowledge. The Cobra guys are helpful in publishing offices and even clerks at those offices who are helpful to our owners.
Registering your replica illegally is not the crime of the century. To date, there has been little chance of being caught. However, SEMA is largely responsible for many of the states enacting legislation that enables all of us to register our cars legally, in response to legitimate criticism of the inability of the 50 state DMV's inability to develop a consistent method of registration that allows owners to buy/sell/move their cars from state to state. The system is not perfect and no doubt will be amended in the future.
As I have stated many times in the past, we all decide which laws we obey and which we ignore. I do the same. I sometimes ignore speed limits, but I know I am breaking the law and will be ticketed if caught. I registered my replica using the SPCN process in California. Most replica owners in CA don't. That's their choice. However, they know or should know that such registration is illegal. It's not complicated. When CA does clamp down, some of them will be among the loudest protesters about the fascist, greedy Kalifornia blah, blah, blah, when they could have complied years previously.
BTW, posts such as these are not telling CA DMV or the CA AG's Office anything, or even alerting them to a problem. They already know of the existing state of replica registration and scofflaws. That's why they backed SB100, the SPCN process of registration in CA.
Jim - So with a new batch of 500 SPCN being issued in a week or so. Can one just do paperwork on 1 Jan and wait to see if they got one of the 500 "permits." Assume the SPCN permit is food for that year or is it 30 days or so. If one has registered and doesn't make the cut then they'd have evidence that they at least tried to comply should they get nabbed.
Of all places, Texas is working on totally eliminating kit cars, dune buggy, and replicas. Even to point of revoking previously registered ones. There is a thread on SAMBA with link to a facebook page. At first even the Polaris Slingshot was banned - but they got that exemption thru.
Jim is right, of course. In Massachusetts there now is an entity monitoring the vehicle inspection process - if they see a VIN number pop up and see that the vehicle in the inspection lane is NOT what the VIN and registration/title would suggest, all hell breaks loose and the owner has a lot of ‘splainin to do. California and Michigan are almost ready to implement the same, and another 8 - 10 states close behind.
Gordon Nichols posted:...In Massachusetts there now is an entity monitoring the vehicle inspection process - if they see a VIN number pop up and see that the vehicle in the inspection lane is NOT what the VIN and registration/title would suggest, all hell breaks loose and the owner has a lot of ‘splainin to do. California and Michigan are almost ready to implement the same, and another 8 - 10 states close behind.
I wasn't aware that things are about to change in California, Gordon, and can't find anything online about this.
Do you have any links to articles with more info? Thanks.
When I was going through my re-registration process here, one of the last stops was the final “inspection” for roadworthiness, safety and emissions (if needed). In Massachusetts, that is sub-contracted to a private company that not only does the inspections, but also provides a monitoring service to the state such that there are links to the vehicle inspection station data entry systems as well as TV cameras in the inspection bays so they can see what’s going on in there to avoid technicians cheating on the inspections.
I just drove by their place today and it is a company here called Applus+ Technologies. It was a very secretive place when I was there, with no sign out front at that time (they have since put up a front sign). While I was there they told me they were state wide (that is true in Mass.) and they were working on contracts in California, Michigan, Arizona and elsewhere - “A bunch of states” I was told - to do vehicle inspection monitoring the same as here. That’s all I know or have heard. Here is their website:
The states I see in their recent “news” section is talk about recent contracts with Georgia and Idaho.
As an aside, when Hamilton Test Systems started their inspection stations in California back in the 1970’s, we/they started just in Orange County and grew out from there. IIRC, Sun Vehicle Test Systems were doing something similar in other counties, too, but I moved on to other parts of the industry and lost track.
Gordon, thanks.
All smog check stations here (as far as I know) are run by independent companies (not state agencies) - at least for routine smog checks.
I've just been reading up on the SPCN process and, apparently, you do have to go to a state test station (Bureau of Automotive Repair or BAR) when you're first getting a SPCN approved. And BAR does do other kinds of specialized testing.
So, that company might be applying to operate in California either to do routine smog tests or (conceivably) as a subcontractor for BAR. Either way, those are tests the law has required for some time.
I've been looking into just what I would have to do to legally register in CA as a SPCN. One troubling thing I've come across (on a web site for Cobra replica owners) is a list of the documentation required for the process. You supposedly need bills of sale (showing serial numbers) for engine and transmission. And a Manufacturer Statement of Origin (MSO) for the car itself. I've got none of those. And seeing as how the VS that built my car is no longer in business, there's probably no way for me to get a MSO now.
Maybe @Jim Kelly can shed some light on how someone in my situation might go straight.
More than likely, Applus would like to take over BAR functions in your state. Massachusetts does not have a BAR (Bureau of Automotive Repair) - We have an MAC; Motorist Assistance Center....Same function as a BAR, so that is pretty much what they’re doing in Massachusetts. I think I may have now “followed the money” in why Massachusetts dumped the SEMA law and went with something totally favoring these guys....
Greg, From my research, CA has not used all the 500 possible SPCN permits for a few years now, so getting one should be easy, no matter what time of year you apply.
Mitch, Prior to researching how to get a substitute MSO/CSO issued, I would contact VS in AZ and see if they could help. Not sure of their legal status as a successor in interest of the former VS and whether they keep old VS records or not, but they seem like nice folks and may have some ideas even if they can't the docs.
I'm sure this is not the first time your issue has surfaced, since VS built most of the Speedsters in the US, and routinely registered the CA cars as VW's without an MSO.
Like Jim said, it's not the first time this issue has surfaced in California, but it's also not the first time that the lack of documentation availability has prevented California buyers of out of state cars with SPCN titles from being able to ever register their car in California.
Once you have an SPCN title in California you won't have a problem selling your car in California, but it could turn in to a nightmare for an out of state buyer when it's time to sell.
Buyers can also have similar problems if they are buying a replica Speedster that has some how been titled as a Porsche. Potential nightmare city.
Mitch,
Regarding documentation you need here in Mass to get a state VIN change from your VW pan to a Speedster replica VIN and from my write-up of the process:
*******************************************************************
At the time of the scheduled appointment, the customer must bring the following documentation to the inspection site:
o Manufacturer’s Certificate of Origin and/or Manufacturer’s VIN for the body, if the kit is new
o The kit list of parts making up the kit delivered to you.
o Certificate of Title for the Donor vehicle if the vehicle is used or if chassis is used. It would be prudent to bring along a Bill of Sale showing the purchase of the donor car to prove that it was not stolen.
o If applicable, receipts showing proof of acquisition (Invoice or bill of sale) for all major component parts used to restore the vehicle. In the case of used vehicle parts, the receipts must contain the Vehicle Identification Number of the vehicle from which the parts were taken. If the parts were part of the original Donor car, just show that.
For new, replacement components, such as:
You’ll need the invoice for the sale when you bought them.
All of this is to prove the ownership path of all major parts so that the State Police Inspector can ascertain that nothing used in the build was stolen parts.
NOTE: In order to waive the emissions testing on your engine, it MUST be of the same displacement as the original donor car. In other words, if your donor car had a 1,600cc engine, you can only declare (with backup paperwork) a 1,600cc engine in your replica. If it is larger, you will be subject to the process outlined in a frame-based car, requiring you to buy a salvage vehicle, get it crushed and apply the salvage title to your car.
You're right, Mitch. It's a lot of paperwork, especially if it was something you (I) built 20 years ago. Fortunately, I kept all that stuff in a file and had it. Otherwise.........
"Fortunately, I kept all that stuff in a file and had it." Gordon was VERY fortunate!
The vast majority of used Speedsters being sold have passed through several owners and very typically there is little if any documentation from the original sale.
@Gordon Nichols What would your situation be if you didn't have all of that?
Troy asked: "What would your situation be if you didn't have all of that?"
I probably would have been forced to sell my car to someone in another state.
Like any other state, there is some wiggle room involved in this process, depending on the individuals you get assigned to you or those that you can choose by referrals. All the State Police are doing in their parts search is to find any stolen property being used in the automotive aftermarket. If you can document the majority of the stuff (and the big ticket items) used in your build, you will probably be OK. As a humorous aside, my kit "pick list" was printed with light ink on perforated, yellowed-with-age computer paper with the drive holes down the sides. I tried scanning it and then enhancing the image but could not improve it so I just included those very light sheets that were often difficult to read, but at least I had something to show that I had bought the kit and that seemed to be good enough. (My wife just said that I "was exceptionally anal about keeping records on my sweet little Porsh" and is giggling as she exits the kitchen).
Also, I don't know how much flack you'll have to deal with if the car was built 2 or 3 owners ago and you're just buying it from someone (fully built long ago) and trying to register it properly now as a replica, not a VW sedan. Everyone in the Mass. DMV/State Police know that this is a 2-year-old process and they see maybe a dozen replica cars each year in the entire state so few people really know the process and how to apply it (that's why I documented it). I never got the feeling that anyone was out to punish the replica builder/owner, just to make sure everything was legal and I wasn't trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. What I did sense, was that they were all impressed that I was trying to make a bad situation good proactively, before I went in for an inspection and failed and then tried to do it. Still, they can easily make you jump through massive hoops if they want to.
I have seen three cars (mine included) go through my process and they had no problems whatever. I have seen several more (usually VS cars, but one other CMC and all on VW pans) who got the description changed on their titles and registrations - done at local DMV offices via a simple form - and, so far, they have made it through the yearly inspection OK. I don't know if that will continue or not - prob'ly will.
As I said - there is wiggle room in there, but not a lot of opportunities to test the process for its' limits, if you know what I mean.
Gordon, here's a pretty good summary of the California SPCN process.
It's written for the home builder putting together his own kit, but you can figure out what applies if you're trying to register a car built by a shop (like VS.)
Basically, you start at DMV, then have the car smog tested by BAR (even if you will be exempted from subsequent smog tests), then have CHP do a safety inspection, then bring all the paperwork back to DMV for your tags.
It looks like they want to make sure the car has a unique VIN (even if DMV has to create it), that no major parts in the car were stolen, and that the state gets its share of your money.
It sounds to me like essentially the same things that Massachusetts wants - except for the bizarre requirement to trash an old car before you can register a new one.
I guess it could be worse. They might have demanded five Special K boxtops or the proof of purchase coupon from a Kelloggs Variety Pack.
I’ll just leave my registered as it is now.
I live in Michigan, and we have no smog testing/vehicle inspections here. I haven't heard anything about this being on the horizon either.
We have a newly elected governor here, and since everything nowadays is about politics and staying in office, I would think implementing mandatory testing and it's associated cost to the average Michigan motorist (and voter) would be a very bad way to start off her term in office.
I'm not one to say never say never, but still....
Bill
Great info, especially the part about having receipts for the major parts and donors.
Slow: the Applus guys mentioned "western Michigan" as an area where they were "working on proposals". I don't know what that means in the grand scheme of things, just passing along scuttlebut.
@Troy Sloan - Hey Troy, how are you? I have a question: if a VW is presently registered in California, and you use the pan for a Speedster replica, it seems to me like you don't have to do anything special, just keep paying the registration fees every year. Is that correct?
