Camber compensator question

Post a picture.

Buy a CB Performance Camber Compensator.

Here's a pic of one side - other side is actually worse, but I couldn't get as good of picture. Can I just cut the part that's rubbing away? If so, do I need to take the whole thing off to do it?

You're about to loose one of the nuts holding your spring plate on.  I definitely like the ones with the u clamp that goes around the axle - assume that the CB one.

WOLFGANG posted:

You're about to loose one of the nuts holding your spring plate on.  I definitely like the ones with the u clamp that goes around the axle - assume that the CB one.

  Jesus Wolfgang - thank you. I'm so focused on the camber compensator, I'm not paying attention to what is right in front of my face. I checked the other side, and the nut there was loose as well. Luckily, the others were tight.

 This car doesn't seem to want me to see my 60th birthday.

Something is not right. Who put the compensator on?

Can you take some pics with less zoom?

Are the bolt holes off center on the red blocks? Been a long time since I had the swing axel.

Bill Prout posted:

Something is not right. Who put the compensator on?

Can you take some pics with less zoom?

Are the bolt holes off center on the red blocks? Been a long time since I had the swing axel.

 Bill,

 I bought the car from VS with the camber compensator installed. My car ended up having a bad transmission, so a new transmission and axle was sent from Vintage. That was subsequently installed by Munks Motors here in Michigan (250 miles on the odometer). 

 I didn't have the car long enough before the trans was installed to know if it was like this prior to getting the new trans. I sent a picture to Munks to see if they know what's going on, but I haven't heard back yet. (I just sent the pic a couple of hours ago).

 The car actually drives fine, but there are some noises going on in the suspension, especially over bumps, that lead me to look under the car, and that's when I saw the compensator interfering with the shocks.

 What a mess.

 Bill

 Here are some pics of the compensator when it was on the lift at Munks - it still had the old transaxle in these pics. There's a gap between the shock and bushing, but since it's on the lift, your not really comparing apples to apples.

That all looks right - maybe due to lowered car and maybe larger size shocks (or just EMPI built in value).  Does it does look like the spring or trans mount has elongated slots where you could shift spring maybe a 1/2".  I wouldn't think shaving 1/2" off that lower corner would harm anything.  

Try a little grease on the area rubbing. You might be able to trim it down a little.

Did you contact VS about this issue?

 I haven't contacted Kirk yet - I have another issue I'm waiting for resolution on as well. If I haven't heard anything by Monday, I'm going to re contact him on that issue and send him pics on my compensator issue as well. Trying to be less of a pain by combining my gripes.

Those urethane block just don't look sized right foer the axel tubes. The CB version linked above should be the ticket. Also contact EMPI and see if they have different blocks/bushings that may be a better fit.

Post some pics of your car while we wait!

Slowdude wrote: "Here's a pic of one side - other side is actually worse, but I couldn't get as good of picture. Can I just cut the part that's rubbing away? If so, do I need to take the whole thing off to do it?"

Yes and Yes, BUT! -  Before you get your Sawzall out, try loosening the spring leaf attachment bolt on the mount, The horizontal one below the transaxle and, as Greg mentioned, see if you can slide the whole assembly away from the shock cover for clearance.  It might be as simple as a small spacer on the rearward end for "fine tuning" the final position fore/aft.   BE CAREFUL!  The compensator is a leaf spring under tension.  It gets WAY more tense when the car is off of the ground.

I don't think different red blocks are the answer, and they get pretty thin up towards the top, so sawing a slice off of them might not be an answer, either.  Besides, from your second set of photos, everything seemed to fit nicely before you guys did the transaxle swap, so something simply was not put back the same way.  

That's where I would start, not cutting stuff up before you know why the interference is happening.

^Better advice yet.

I was thinking trimming the lower corner a little might work if all else mention by Gordon fails.

My theory: the thing that moved was the axle tube when the shop r&r'd it. I think they didn't tighten everything, too. Either your rear alignment was off before (when everything fit) or it is now. 

Adjust the thing that adjusts first...then start cutting things if needed.

Gordon Nichols posted:

 

Yes and Yes, BUT! -  Before you get your Sawzall out, try loosening the spring leaf attachment bolt on the mount, The horizontal one below the transaxle and, as Greg mentioned, see if you can slide the whole assembly away from the shock cover for clearance.  It might be as simple as a small spacer on the rearward end for "fine tuning" the final position fore/aft.   BE CAREFUL!  The compensator is a leaf spring under tension.  It gets WAY more tense when the car is off of the ground.

I don't think different red blocks are the answer, and they get pretty thin up towards the top, so sawing a slice off of them might not be an answer, either.  Besides, from your second set of photos, everything seemed to fit nicely before you guys did the transaxle swap, so something simply was not put back the same way.  

That's where I would start, not cutting stuff up before you know why the interference is happening.

  Wouldn't sliding the whole assembly away from one shock tower just make it rub even more on the opposite shock tower? It's already rubbing on both towers.

 In the second set of photos, the car was up on the lift, so wouldn't that change the relationship between the compensator ends and the shocks? I'm just wondering if that clearance I'm seeing would have closed up once the car was set back on the ground.

edsnova posted:

My theory: the thing that moved was the axle tube when the shop r&r'd it. I think they didn't tighten everything, too. Either your rear alignment was off before (when everything fit) or it is now. 

Adjust the thing that adjusts first...then start cutting things if needed.

  I'm thinking something wasn't put back together the same way when they replaced the transaxle too - I just don't know what it might be. The car is actually driving fine - something I would suspect wouldn't be the case if my alignment was out of whack. There is a definite clicking noise in the area of the shocks - I'm sure it's from the compensator rubbing on the shocks.

The clicking noise was most likely due to the loose bolts. Have you tightened them up and take a test drive?

Drilling new holes (instead of cutting the bushings) in the leaf spring and relocating the blocks a half inch inward would be the easiest remedy if all else mentioned above fails.

I'm lost with the advice. The EMPI camber compensator clearly doesn't fit. I'd check the alignment- if it's close, I think Robert had the solution back on post #3.

Bill Prout posted:

The clicking noise was most likely due to the loose bolts. Have you tightened them up and take a test drive?

Drilling new holes (instead of cutting the bushings) in the leaf spring and relocating the blocks a half inch inward would be the easiest remedy if all else mentioned above fails.

 

  Bill - I did tighten the bolts and took the car out for a spin - the clicking noise is still there.

 Stan, I'm thinking you may be right - this type compensator just doesn't fit my car. It may have never fit, I just wasn't able to drive the car enough before taking it in for the trans replacement to know for sure.

 What's the safest way to take this off, should I decide to. 

edsnova posted:

My theory: the thing that moved was the axle tube when the shop r&r'd it. I think they didn't tighten everything, too. Either your rear alignment was off before (when everything fit) or it is now. 

Adjust the thing that adjusts first...then start cutting things if needed.

@slowshoes

I think I'd have to go with Ed on this one. If everything fit BEFORE the news transmission and axle were installed. It looks like Munks forgot to tighten the nuts holding the spring plates on and either those being loose allowed things to shift or something else is going on here.

I WOULD NOT start hacking away at the camber compensator until the fitment/alignment of the transmission and axle is double-checked.

Robert M posted:

edsnova posted:

My theory: the thing that moved was the axle tube when the shop r&r'd it. I think they didn't tighten everything, too. Either your rear alignment was off before (when everything fit) or it is now. 

Adjust the thing that adjusts first...then start cutting things if needed.

@slowshoes

I think I'd have to go with Ed on this one. If everything fit BEFORE the news transmission and axle were installed. It looks like Munks forgot to tighten the nuts holding the spring plates on and either those being loose allowed things to shift or something else is going on here.

I WOULD NOT start hacking away at the camber compensator until the fitment/alignment of the transmission and axle is double-checked.

 Ok - I'm sufficiently worried to get my car back to Munks to double check the trans and axle.

slowshoes posted:

Robert M posted:

edsnova posted:

My theory: the thing that moved was the axle tube when the shop r&r'd it. I think they didn't tighten everything, too. Either your rear alignment was off before (when everything fit) or it is now. 

Adjust the thing that adjusts first...then start cutting things if needed.

@slowshoes

I think I'd have to go with Ed on this one. If everything fit BEFORE the news transmission and axle were installed. It looks like Munks forgot to tighten the nuts holding the spring plates on and either those being loose allowed things to shift or something else is going on here.

I WOULD NOT start hacking away at the camber compensator until the fitment/alignment of the transmission and axle is double-checked.

 Ok - I'm sufficiently worried to get my car back to Munks to double check the trans and axle.

It is best the remove the compensator when the wheels are under load, this takes the load off the CC. Ckock the front tires, jack the car up as high as you can and put some ramps under the rear tires, take out the jack. This will take the tension off the CC. Undo the bolts holding the CC in place, and remove the CC. Replace the bolts and get the car off the ramps/blocks.

Or take it off with the car on a lift that supports the car by the tires.

slowshoes posted:

WOLFGANG posted:

You're about to loose one of the nuts holding your spring plate on.  I definitely like the ones with the u clamp that goes around the axle - assume that the CB one.

  Jesus Wolfgang - thank you. I'm so focused on the camber compensator, I'm not paying attention to what is right in front of my face. I checked the other side, and the nut there was loose as well. Luckily, the others were tight.

 This car doesn't seem to want me to see my 60th birthday.

 

Those are the bolts that set the toe in on the rear axle. Have you had it aligned yet?  If not, you better. I don't know if VS takes turn key cars to an actual alignment shop, I know they don't align rollers.  My compensator rubs a little bit on the shocks just like yours. I don't think it will hurt unless it's rubbing really hard. Does it squeak?

slowshoes posted:

 

 ... Bill - I did tighten the bolts and took the car out for a spin - the clicking noise is still there...

 

My EMPI compensator also rubbed on the shocks when the car was new. There were other problems with it, so I just removed it, and never noticed any difference in handling. If you want a camber compensator, the CB looks like a better design.

I think a more likely source for 'clicks' when going over bumps could be the front anti-sway bar. VS mounts theirs in a way that often interferes with the front bumper brackets. The bar clears the brackets when the car is at rest, but rubs as the suspension works up and down. Mine hit the U-bolts holding the bracket in place, and you could see wear marks on the bolts. If the bolts are shortened, the bar will then often hit the brackets themselves.

Here's a link to a post by @MusbJim showing how he fixed the problem.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

slowshoes posted:

 

 ... Bill - I did tighten the bolts and took the car out for a spin - the clicking noise is still there...

 

My EMPI compensator also rubbed on the shocks when the car was new. There were other problems with it, so I just removed it, and never noticed any difference in handling. If you want a camber compensator, the CB looks like a better design.

I think a more likely source for 'clicks' when going over bumps could be the front anti-sway bar. VS mounts theirs in a way that often interferes with the front bumper brackets. The bar clears the brackets when the car is at rest, but rubs as the suspension works up and down. Mine hit the U-bolts holding the bracket in place, and you could see wear marks on the bolts. If the bolts are shortened, the bar will then often hit the brackets themselves.

Here's a link to a post by @MusbJim showing how he fixed the problem.

 

  We just returned from being out of town for the week - my CB Performance compensator arrived while away. I hope to get it installed this weekend.

 I've wondered whether or not a compensator is even needed for someone like myself. I don't really drive aggressively, and I'm sure not everyone who has these cars all have compensators installed. I just figured I'd err on the side of safety.

 Mitch my front sway bar installation definitely looks different than yours. (I've included a pic). It's definitely pretty close to the front bumper mount, but the clicks we are hearing over bumps is clearly coming from the rear shock area. I still feel it's the Empi compensator rubbing on the shocks - I guess I'll find out soon enough.

 I did email Kirk a pic of the compensator rubbing on the shock and explained the noises we are hearing, asking if he had any thoughts, but got no reply.

 FPCOPO, We haven't had the car aligned. The car seems to be driving fine - no pulling right or left, no wandering or vibration. I've had it up to 80 mph, and all was well - it just seems an alignment would be wasted money. Does an alignment need to be done by a shop that is familiar with air cooled bugs, or can any alignment shop deal with our cars?

 Thanks for any advice fellas.

  Bill

Bill - It sure looks like your sway bar would hit the bumper bracket when wheels hit a dip in the road since the bumper bracket is not notched at all.  It doesn't look like it needs but an couple inches.

Funny, I just started having a right front clicking noise on my SE/Beck Speedster. I thought it might be a bearing but they were good. Turns out it was the right front disc brake inside pad moving as the wheel rotates. There are no shims in my front brakes it may be that the pads metal channel where they slide on the caliper assembly have worn. I added some brake grease and the clicking has stopped.

Anyone know if you can get the thin metal shims for the EMPI, Ghia front disc brakes?

Maybe you might be having the same issue.

Pete

slowshoes posted:

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

slowshoes posted:

 

 ... Bill - I did tighten the bolts and took the car out for a spin - the clicking noise is still there...

 

My EMPI compensator also rubbed on the shocks when the car was new. There were other problems with it, so I just removed it, and never noticed any difference in handling. If you want a camber compensator, the CB looks like a better design.

I think a more likely source for 'clicks' when going over bumps could be the front anti-sway bar. VS mounts theirs in a way that often interferes with the front bumper brackets. The bar clears the brackets when the car is at rest, but rubs as the suspension works up and down. Mine hit the U-bolts holding the bracket in place, and you could see wear marks on the bolts. If the bolts are shortened, the bar will then often hit the brackets themselves.

Here's a link to a post by @MusbJim showing how he fixed the problem.

 

  We just returned from being out of town for the week - my CB Performance compensator arrived while away. I hope to get it installed this weekend.

 I've wondered whether or not a compensator is even needed for someone like myself. I don't really drive aggressively, and I'm sure not everyone who has these cars all have compensators installed. I just figured I'd err on the side of safety.

 Mitch my front sway bar installation definitely looks different than yours. (I've included a pic). It's definitely pretty close to the front bumper mount, but the clicks we are hearing over bumps is clearly coming from the rear shock area. I still feel it's the Empi compensator rubbing on the shocks - I guess I'll find out soon enough.

 I did email Kirk a pic of the compensator rubbing on the shock and explained the noises we are hearing, asking if he had any thoughts, but got no reply.

 FPCOPO, We haven't had the car aligned. The car seems to be driving fine - no pulling right or left, no wandering or vibration. I've had it up to 80 mph, and all was well - it just seems an alignment would be wasted money. Does an alignment need to be done by a shop that is familiar with air cooled bugs, or can any alignment shop deal with our cars?

 Thanks for any advice fellas.

  Bill

 

That sway bar is not supposed to be touching the bumper brackets like that...

Bill, my front bar (2013 VS) looks like yours, but I didn't have a photo handy. (The photo was from MusbJim's first VS, which was an earlier model).

When the wheels are unweighted (as yours are in your photo), the sway bar moves up towards the bumper brackets. It looks like you may have just enough clearance (can't tell if it's touching or not). Look for wear marks on the bottom of the bracket, just above the sway bar.

If I jack up the front end on my car until the wheels are off the ground, the sway bar is against the bracket and there are marks where there's been contact. It's on my list of things to fix.

The camber compensator theoretically helps handling but it's a safety item, too. It's supposed to keep the outside wheel from tucking under the car and causing a rollover in extreme cornering. In theory, if you never push it really hard, you shouldn't need one.

But anyone who charges hard through the twisties in a swing axle car should know about this. When the back end starts to go, things can get ugly in a hurry in ways they never would in a Corolla or a Civic. We lost a forum member a few years back in a rollover. Be careful out there.

My EMPI camber bar exerted hardly any upward force on the axle at all, even when deflected six inches or so, so I don't think it was helping handling any, and probably wouldn't have done much to prevent a rollover. When we put in a new engine and beefed up the transaxle mounts, it wouldn't fit, so I never installed another.

But I do approach corners a little more gingerly in the Speedster than when I'm driving just about anything else.

Hey guys the camber compensator isn't just for aggressive drivers and track days. It's for the moment you swerve to avoid that deer or dog or six-year-old girl who darts out in front of you. That's the move that will unweight one side and cause a rear tire to tuck. That's the move that the camber compensator was made to remedy. 

I pulled my front sway-bar off 6 months ago and haven't noticed any difference without it.

That said, Whitecloud hasn't been on the road a lot until recently...

Wheeee!

Shoot -fire! You don't need none of them safety-nannies.

Back before everything was sissified, we'd hang that back end out, let the car tuck, roll over, and die like men. Think about it- Mark Donahue didn't need a bunch of safety crap. Dale Earnhardt either. Ayrton Senna? Nope.

The fact that they're all dead as a result is of little consequence. They died in their prime, and therefore "lived fast, died young, and left a beautiful corpse" (as it were).

Camber compensators and roll bars are for wimps.

...camber compensators and roll bars are for wimps...

can I get an Amen?!

Let the good times roll !

Pierre Levegh crashed his Mercedes at the 24 Hours of Le Mans in 1955, a time we look back on with great romance. 

There was a fiasco with somebody going into the pits, and his car was pushed off the road and into an embankment. Levegh was thrown out and killed. His car expolded and flew into the stands where it killed 80-85 spectators. It was (and still is) the worst tragedy in the history of auto racing. Mercedes Benz pulled out of racing until 1989 as a result. France, Spain, Switzerland, Germany, and other European nations temporarily banned auto racing. Switzerland's ban is still in effect today. 

The accident had nothing to do with brakes or sway bars or wheel tuck. I guess the point is, I'm (mostly) OK knowing the risks. But the thing is: I'm kind've keen on doing everything I can to make sure I don't launch or roll my speedster for lack of a simple safety device. A camber compensator or sway bar don't take away from the romance of the car. Nor do 4-wheel disc brakes. Nor do decent lap-belts. There was a time when I thought I was indestructible, and a season when I was pretty sure I didn't want to get old.

I was a moron. I had no idea I'd be as OK with being fat, dumb, and happy as I apparently am... even though the precarious state of my mortality has never been more plain. It's odd. I'd think that I'd have been more careful with more to lose, and less so as my strength and vitality are sapped. But it is not so.

What I do know is that I don't want to be this guy:

Do me a solid and put the bar back on the car, Will. Thanks in advance.

Don't need if you have someone riding shot gun ....

Over compensator.

Stan Galat posted:

Shoot -fire! You don't need none of them safety-nannies.

Back before everything was sissified, we'd hang that back end out, let the car tuck, roll over, and die like men. Think about it- Mark Donahue didn't need a bunch of safety crap. Dale Earnhardt either. Ayrton Senna? Nope.

The fact that they're all dead as a result is of little consequence. They died in their prime, and therefore "lived fast, died young, and left a beautiful corpse" (as it were).

Camber compensators and roll bars are for wimps.

Knowing Stan for a few years, I knew this was a sarcastic post.