I've been in a Bug on two wheels staring at a telephone pole...
And I've hit a guard rail at 60mph head-on. Please put the compensator on, the life you save may be your own.
Don't be a fool and think "I don't drive that fast to need it". I call BS, everyone with a swing axle needs it.
I also used to drive around with only a lap belt on(and 4 points INSTALLED!) and now I always put all 5 belts on. How I didn't smash my face on the dash or steering wheel I'll never know. It was a serious wake-up call.
It's kinda like closing the barn door after the horses have run off.
None of us are immortal, folks.
I'm running the camber-compensator but not the front sway-bar. I notice no difference in handling at a pretty good clip around here, and we've got some twistys, just ask Tebs, Robert, Jim, anyone who's driven the Central Coast back-roads.
I sold my 1978 IM in 1979 because the back end kept trying to pass the front end on any sharp turn over 30 mph. No camber compensators available then, or if there were I didn't know about them. To me they are a must have on these cars. Best 90 bucks I ever spent.
Will, if you drive fast enough, and have a front sway bar on a swing axle car, you need a compensator. Period. It's been proven by people that are a lot smarter than all of us here on this little website.
Will (and everybody): Your front sway bar will make the car understeer. Understeer is when you're trying to turn while going too fast and the car is still going straight, plowing, forward. Every stock road car sold in the U.S.A. in the past 45 years has been designed to understeer, because when people experience it they tend to do the only thing you can do, which is slow down. Hitting the brakes in a turn while understeering does no harm. It does good—provided you're not going so dang fast that it doesn't.
A rear sway bar will tend to undo what the front sway bar is doing. It promotes oversteer. Thats when, while taking a turn too fast, the ass "hangs out." It's scary AF for normal drivers, but in small doses, oversteer can get a car through a turn faster than it would otherwise be able to go.
Problem is, the right thing to do in an oversteer situation is to NOT TOUCH THE BRAKES. You brake, you spin out completely. Sometimes you spin out completely anyway, but if you're a really good driver you can steer out of it by turning into the skid.
Most of us do not have the presence of mind to do this properly, most of the time.
And getting out of the situation is only possible if you weren't going too fast into the turn already when things got sideways. Remember, you can't jam on the brakes. So to drive through a corner properly with a bit of oversteer, you have to hit it at just the right speed.
Any car can be set up to understeer, or oversteer, depending on the spring rates, sway bars, suspension geometry, etc.
Swing axle cars are especially prone to oversteer because of this tuck-in effect. That is why a camber compensator, which helps flatten the rear suspension response without promoting oversteer the way a sway bar would, is pretty much necessary equipment. Porsches got them in the '50s. VWs not long after. Hell, even Corvairs had them by like '65.
The camber compensator will not make the car immune to oversteer. But it will make it less likely, and maybe less radical, and that will make the car more controllable no matter how good (or bad) a driver you happen to be.
If I had a swing axle car I'd have a stock sway bar up front and the CC on the back for sure.
"If I had a swing axle car I'd have a stock sway bar up front and the CC on the back for sure."
Absolutely!
Understeer is when the front end of the car hits the wall first. Oversteer is when the back end hits it first.
Thank you all - I've learned a lot following this discussion. Very helpful info as I work on planning my build and supports my decision to go with Tony's wise recommendation of IRS over swing axel.
it sounds like most of you drive much faster than I, my autocross days are long gone
and my top speed is governed by seeing Kathy's right hand reach for the door pull...
Here's an off the wall question- given the choice, why would someone building a car now choose swing axel over IRS?
Bwkirk posted:Here's an off the wall question- given the choice, why would someone building a car now choose swing axel over IRS?
Wide 5's
IRS adds a couple inches to rear wheel track - which limits wheel width and tire size. Plus some just like the more authentic '57 Porsche suspension feel - then there's the wide 5 Madness (you could still run 4.5" wide fives on an IRS though). I prefer Fuchs look over wide fives.
As Bill stated so efficiently, swing axles are 2.5" narrower on each side, offering more opportunity for wider tires/wheels. Performance wise, there is no comparison. IRS offers better handling, since the angle between axle and tire is fixed with a swing axle. The only time knowledgeable VW guys will choose swing axle is for drag racing, i.e., straight line usage. If you plan to use your car on anything with bends in the road, IRS is the way to go.
Thanks guys- that all makes sense. I'll stick with the IRS.
Slowshoes, my car didn't have an engine installed so it couldn't be aligned. That being said, I was told it would have an engine installed and be taken out and any problems corrected and a full alignment done. I guess I was REALLY naive at this time and hadn't read the forum enough. Anyhow when I got the car running it pulled pretty badly so I got a four wheel alignment done by a good shop. Now it drives fine. Don't be fooled into thinking that your car doesn't need to be aligned because it drives OK. You most likely won't find out it's not right is in an emergency situation or when your tires start wearing out after 1000 miles. Even if it was aligned wouldn't it be worth the $100 for piece of mind? Good luck with it.
Fpcopo VS posted:Don't be fooled into thinking that your car doesn't need to be aligned because it drives OK. You most likely won't find out it's not right is in an emergency situation or when your tires start wearing out after 1000 miles. Even if it was aligned wouldn't it be worth the $100 for piece of mind? Good luck with it.
Point well taken Fpcopo - I'll get it to a shop to get the alignment done. I went ahead and took my Empi compensator off today in order to replace it with the CB performance one.
The Empi came off easily, while the CB had to be filed a bit to get the center plate that mounts to the trans on. I now have two issues. The center plate on the CB one is thicker than the Empi compensator. The extra thickness doesn't allow any threads to go past the nut when they are fully tightened down.
Second, after getting the center plate and one of the arms installed on the CB, the second arm is catching on the shock, keeping me from getting the final arm installed. I may be able to disconnect the shock from the lower bolt, install the arm and reinstall the bottom of the shock. I've never installed a shock on a car - anything special I need to do.
Any further advice would be welcome fellas.
Bill
I just went out to the garage and did a leak check after driving the car last couple of nights and hardly any leaks, good news. Mainly I went down to look at the stabilizer bar and the compensator. Although the stabilizer does lay against the bumper bracket when the car is lifted I can see there is no paint knocked off the bar or the bracket so I think I lucked out on that.
However, my compensator bumpers are rubbing fairly hard on the shocks. I had a couple of bumpers that I broke the grade 1 EMPI bolts out of to experiment on so I took a knife and cut some pretty good size notches in to see if I can get them to quit rubbing on the shock. When I cut the notch out I still didn't hit the inner steel so that should cure the rubbing problem.
The last thing I wanted to mention is when I had my transaxle rebuilt I tried changing to 3.44 gears and a .93 4th. This puts the overall ratio at 3.18. I think it was a mistake. On the freeway it is great, 80 mph cruising no problem but around town it is way to steep. You almost never can get into 4th without lugging and I lost a lot of acceleration. If I ever pull the engine out again, I'm going either to a 1.00 4th gear or a 3.88 ring gear and a .89 fourth. The 3.88 will make the first 3 gears a little better in town. I shouldn't have tried to out think 40 years of experience. Al and I talked about this a lot and I thought I would let you all know about this.
Bill Prout posted:Bwkirk posted:Here's an off the wall question- given the choice, why would someone building a car now choose swing axel over IRS?
Wide 5's
I've got wide 5s, 6" rears, and IRS.
There are major advantages to tube frames.
Fpcopo VS posted:I just went out to the garage and did a leak check after driving the car last couple of nights and hardly any leaks, good news. Mainly I went down to look at the stabilizer bar and the compensator. Although the stabilizer does lay against the bumper bracket when the car is lifted I can see there is no paint knocked off the bar or the bracket so I think I lucked out on that.
However, my compensator bumpers are rubbing fairly hard on the shocks. I had a couple of bumpers that I broke the grade 1 EMPI bolts out of to experiment on so I took a knife and cut some pretty good size notches in to see if I can get them to quit rubbing on the shock. When I cut the notch out I still didn't hit the inner steel so that should cure the rubbing problem.
The last thing I wanted to mention is when I had my transaxle rebuilt I tried changing to 3.44 gears and a .93 4th. This puts the overall ratio at 3.18. I think it was a mistake. On the freeway it is great, 80 mph cruising no problem but around town it is way to steep. You almost never can get into 4th without lugging and I lost a lot of acceleration. If I ever pull the engine out again, I'm going either to a 1.00 4th gear or a 3.88 ring gear and a .89 fourth. The 3.88 will make the first 3 gears a little better in town. I shouldn't have tried to out think 40 years of experience. Al and I talked about this a lot and I thought I would let you all know about this.
Why the need for 4rth gear around town? I never use fourth around town...Just keep the rpm's in the sweet spot and foegetaboudit
I think Gene Berg came up with a straightforward way to keep four nicely-spaced gears for around town and still have a cruising gear for the highway. 
Ed, and all:
A front swaybar on a swingaxle car does not necessarily make the car understeer. It makes the car oversteer LESS. The goal is neutral or slight oversteer rather than plowing understeer. The factory 12mm swaybar helps, the 19mm I have may be(jury's out still) too much. Years ago, a 5/8" bar was available but not today. Would probably be the ticket today on our lighter cars(as opposed to a stock Bug). I'm in process of making one, accommodating the narrowed beam and tube frame in the process.
Zero roll suspension, Z bars, and camber straps are options for us in the Spyder world. Basically a heavier weight Formula Vee rear suspension. All these techniques goal is to prevent positive camber from happening and progressing to wheel jacking and resulting in a spin. The simplest is camber straps which I'll be investigating. Basically, a heavy nylon strap like a seatbelt to limit travel.
There really isn't much choice on a Spyder, especially a Vintage, to remove the swingaxle from the equation. Unless you have a lot of fabrication skill and/or money.
Bill Prout posted:Fpcopo VS posted:I just went out to the garage and did a leak check after driving the car last couple of nights and hardly any leaks, good news. Mainly I went down to look at the stabilizer bar and the compensator. Although the stabilizer does lay against the bumper bracket when the car is lifted I can see there is no paint knocked off the bar or the bracket so I think I lucked out on that.
However, my compensator bumpers are rubbing fairly hard on the shocks. I had a couple of bumpers that I broke the grade 1 EMPI bolts out of to experiment on so I took a knife and cut some pretty good size notches in to see if I can get them to quit rubbing on the shock. When I cut the notch out I still didn't hit the inner steel so that should cure the rubbing problem.
The last thing I wanted to mention is when I had my transaxle rebuilt I tried changing to 3.44 gears and a .93 4th. This puts the overall ratio at 3.18. I think it was a mistake. On the freeway it is great, 80 mph cruising no problem but around town it is way to steep. You almost never can get into 4th without lugging and I lost a lot of acceleration. If I ever pull the engine out again, I'm going either to a 1.00 4th gear or a 3.88 ring gear and a .89 fourth. The 3.88 will make the first 3 gears a little better in town. I shouldn't have tried to out think 40 years of experience. Al and I talked about this a lot and I thought I would let you all know about this.
Why the need for 4rth gear around town? I never use fourth around town...Just keep the rpm's in the sweet spot and foegetaboudit
Somehow driving around in third feels like unfinished business!
Fpcopo VS posted:Bill Prout posted:Fpcopo VS posted:I just went out to the garage and did a leak check after driving the car last couple of nights and hardly any leaks, good news. Mainly I went down to look at the stabilizer bar and the compensator. Although the stabilizer does lay against the bumper bracket when the car is lifted I can see there is no paint knocked off the bar or the bracket so I think I lucked out on that.
However, my compensator bumpers are rubbing fairly hard on the shocks. I had a couple of bumpers that I broke the grade 1 EMPI bolts out of to experiment on so I took a knife and cut some pretty good size notches in to see if I can get them to quit rubbing on the shock. When I cut the notch out I still didn't hit the inner steel so that should cure the rubbing problem.
The last thing I wanted to mention is when I had my transaxle rebuilt I tried changing to 3.44 gears and a .93 4th. This puts the overall ratio at 3.18. I think it was a mistake. On the freeway it is great, 80 mph cruising no problem but around town it is way to steep. You almost never can get into 4th without lugging and I lost a lot of acceleration. If I ever pull the engine out again, I'm going either to a 1.00 4th gear or a 3.88 ring gear and a .89 fourth. The 3.88 will make the first 3 gears a little better in town. I shouldn't have tried to out think 40 years of experience. Al and I talked about this a lot and I thought I would let you all know about this.
Why the need for 4rth gear around town? I never use fourth around town...Just keep the rpm's in the sweet spot and foegetaboudit
Somehow driving around in third feels like unfinished business!
What's the speed limit around town?
Fpcopo VS posted:Somehow driving around in third feels like unfinished business!
... then you'll never get what you are after.
There's no gear that is going to be appropriate for 30 mph and 80 mph at the same time, unless you are running a turbo or a smallblock V8.
Sacto Mitch posted:
I think Gene Berg came up with a straightforward way to keep four nicely-spaced gears for around town and still have a cruising gear for the highway.
Yeah, but it's a bit more expensive than a ring & pinion change...
Stan Galat posted:...There's no gear that is going to be appropriate for 30 mph and 80 mph at the same time...
Will Hesch posted:...Yeah, but it's a bit more expensive than a ring & pinion change...
@Fpcopo VS has already done a r&p swap in search of the Holy Grail and he's considering another, which will probably still fall short of what he's hoping for.
The Holy Grail comes up for sale on the Samba pretty often and only takes about a year to get installed. Anyone who lacks the common sense to own one of these cars to begin with shouldn't be at all dismayed by the time and money the Holy Grail costs.
As a wise man once said, "Buy once, cry once."
These were safe when used as directed i.e. an underpowered VW.
Removing a section of the pan, adding HP, and losing weight changes the handling significantly. Sway bars and CC are cheap insurance to help keep you on the road. The EMPI cc are poorly made. I have had no issues since switching to the CB. Without the front mod Jim performed the sway bar has to be installed upside down on a Vintage. It will hit the ground on occasion in reduced clearance.
Stan and Mitch, after paying for a couple of ring gear swaps the five speed would seem cheap. What happened to me was the trans my car came with was supposed to be a freeway flyer and driving it around I was shocked at how low it was geared. First gear was like a granny low and fourth reminded me of a Chevelle I had with 4.88 gears. So I figured if the 3.88 was this bad I would go to the next step and get the 3.44s. When the trans guy got it apart and discovered it was a stock junk transaxle with a Krylon rebuild I already had bought all the gears. I did get a refund for the money I paid for the FF. So hear I am. The only way I would touch the trans again is if I pull the engine to do some more mods it because I finally got all the trans leaks mostly stopped!
majorkahuna posted:These were safe when used as directed i.e. an underpowered VW.
Removing a section of the pan, adding HP, and losing weight changes the handling significantly. Sway bars and CC are cheap insurance to help keep you on the road. The EMPI cc are poorly made. I have had no issues since switching to the CB.
The design of the Empi cc actually makes more sense to me - supporting/pushing up on the axle to counter the wheel trying to tuck in an aggressive turn. The CB cc seems to be pulling down on the axle via the straps that go around the axle, which seems like it would encourage the wheels to tuck in the same situation. I know this obviously isn't the case - I guess I'm not understanding the physics involved. ( I knew I should have paid more attention in physics class all those decades ago!)
At any rate, I wasn't happy with how the nuts weren't able to be tightened enough to have the stud threads go past the nut when fully tightened when mounting the CB cc (due to the increased thickness of the metal). I ended up taking the CB cc off, sanding the urethane bushings on the Empi to clear the shocks, and remounting the Empi cc.
The working on my car vs driving my car ratio is getting way out of whack, so I'll save replacing the studs on the trans with longer ones to accommodate the thicker metal of the CB cc for a winter project.
Bill
You know, Frank, a 5 speed would give you what you're looking for . 
Just sayin'. And you're right- with the money you've spent now, you'd almost be there!
Seriously though- I remember having the conversation, but don't remember the contents exactly (a problem around here as well, according to my lovely better half), but I do know I've said before that when making changes you have to know what's in there now. Changing anything always affects something else; with a r&p, going longer gives better highway speeds, yes, but makes the car slower off the line. Now I know those of you that have done it (and love it) don't care about around town "zippiness", but that's what you lose. I've never driven a 3.44 equipped car, but my trans builder friend Bruce says it really turns a car into a slug off the line (his words, not mine) and it's not something to even think about unless you're running 2200cc's or more.
Found the conversation (pm entitled "Oil cooler" started 5/23/16) and you bought the 3.44 thinking your trans had a 3.88, but when taken apart found it was a 4.125. That is quite the jump. In retrospect I should have suggested you go with a 3.88 (you could have re-used the stock 4th) and sold the 3.44 if it wasn't needed, and for that I apologize.
"Yeah, but it's a bit more expensive than a ring & pinion change..."
It is, Will, but you'll get what you want. Next time you're with someone with a Berg 5 in their car ask to drive it. The joy of close gears and then 5th is something to be experienced. If (after driving your car again) you really don't see the point- I'll buy the beer first time we meet.
And yeah, I know it's big money ($5,000 give or take), but when you've spent 5-$10,000 (or more) on an engine, to make use of it's powerband the way it should be used is just icing on the cake. As I said (and this applies to any one)- if you get a chance to drive a 5 speed equipped car, jump on it! You'll get it.
I know Terry and Mitch (there are others, but can't think who else at the moment) have 5 speeds; the offer of a box of beer or 26 oz bottle of their favorite spirit I'm sure would get you a little seat time if you're at all curious. It'll be well spent...
Yoda out (for now, but back you know I will be!)
ALB posted:You know, Frank, a 5 speed would give you what you're looking for .
Seriously though- I remember having the conversation, but don't remember the contents exactly (a problem around here as well, according to my lovely better half), but I do know I've said before that when making changes you have to know what's in there now. Changing anything always affects something else; with a r&p, going longer gives better highway speeds, yes, but makes the car slower off the line. Now I know those of you that have done it (and love it) don't care about around town "zippiness", but that's what you lose. I've never driven a 3.44 equipped car, but my trans builder friend Bruce says it really turns a car into a slug off the line (his words, not mine) and it's not something to even think about unless you're running 2200cc's or more.
Found the conversation (pm entitled "Oil cooler" started 5/23/16) and you bought the 3.44 thinking your trans had a 3.88, but when taken apart found it was a 4.125. That is quite the jump. In retrospect I should have suggested you go with a 3.88 (you could have re-used the stock 4th) and sold the 3.44 if it wasn't needed, and for that I apologize.
"Yeah, but it's a bit more expensive than a ring & pinion change..."
It is, Will, but you'll get what you want. Next time you're with someone with a Berg 5 in their car ask to drive it. The joy of close gears and then 5th is something to be experienced. If (after driving your car again) you really don't see the point- I'll buy the beer first time we meet.
And yeah, I know it's big money ($5,000 give or take), but when you've spent 5-$10,000 (or more) on an engine, to make use of it's powerband the way it should be used is just icing on the cake. As I said (and this applies to any one)- if you get a chance to drive a 5 speed equipped car, jump on it! You'll get it.
I know Terry and Mitch (there are others, but can't think who else at the moment) have 5 speeds; the offer of a box of beer or 26 oz bottle of their favorite spirit I'm sure would get you a little seat time if you're at all curious. It'll be well spent...
Yoda out (for now, but back you know I will be!
Frank's question was in a different thread, but your answer was thorough. LOL
Slowshoes got me back down in the garage and under the car to see what I could do about the shock rubbing issue. It was pretty easy, took the nuts off the red bumpers and pulled the spring down and both bumpers came right out. I had marked them with a Sharpie where they were rubbing and I used a saber saw to put some good sized reliefs in them to clear the shocks. A hacksaw would have worked as well but now they clear fine. If need be I can post some pictures.
Aftermarket parts rarely work perfectly so to have to cut these bumpers for shock clearance is no surprise. The problem is the bumper is about an inch too wide. I'm sure EMPI used something that was already out there to save money. The only thing to be careful of is not to cut so much that you expose the metal buried in the donut. That might cause some problems with the shock if it hits it. Also be careful not to tighten the bumper nuts more than about 10-15 ft lbs or you will break the cheap EMPI studs. I don't really see how this thing would work all that well given as how the spring is so weak.
Yes, lots and lots of pictures...
Fpcopo VS posted:Stan and Mitch, after paying for a couple of ring gear swaps the five speed would seem cheap. What happened to me was the trans my car came with was supposed to be a freeway flyer and driving it around I was shocked at how low it was geared. First gear was like a granny low and fourth reminded me of a Chevelle I had with 4.88 gears. So I figured if the 3.88 was this bad I would go to the next step and get the 3.44s. When the trans guy got it apart and discovered it was a stock junk transaxle with a Krylon rebuild I already had bought all the gears. I did get a refund for the money I paid for the FF. So hear I am. The only way I would touch the trans again is if I pull the engine to do some more mods it because I finally got all the trans leaks mostly stopped!
Robert M posted:ALB posted:You know, Frank, a 5 speed would give you what you're looking for .
Seriously though- I remember having the conversation, but don't remember the contents exactly (a problem around here as well, according to my lovely better half), but I do know I've said before that when making changes you have to know what's in there now. Changing anything always affects something else; with a r&p, going longer gives better highway speeds, yes, but makes the car slower off the line. Now I know those of you that have done it (and love it) don't care about around town "zippiness", but that's what you lose. I've never driven a 3.44 equipped car, but my trans builder friend Bruce says it really turns a car into a slug off the line (his words, not mine) and it's not something to even think about unless you're running 2200cc's or more.
Found the conversation (pm entitled "Oil cooler" started 5/23/16) and you bought the 3.44 thinking your trans had a 3.88, but when taken apart found it was a 4.125. That is quite the jump. In retrospect I should have suggested you go with a 3.88 (you could have re-used the stock 4th) and sold the 3.44 if it wasn't needed, and for that I apologize.
"Yeah, but it's a bit more expensive than a ring & pinion change..."
It is, Will, but you'll get what you want. Next time you're with someone with a Berg 5 in their car ask to drive it. The joy of close gears and then 5th is something to be experienced. If (after driving your car again) you really don't see the point- I'll buy the beer first time we meet.
And yeah, I know it's big money ($5,000 give or take), but when you've spent 5-$10,000 (or more) on an engine, to make use of it's powerband the way it should be used is just icing on the cake. As I said (and this applies to any one)- if you get a chance to drive a 5 speed equipped car, jump on it! You'll get it.
I know Terry and Mitch (there are others, but can't think who else at the moment) have 5 speeds; the offer of a box of beer or 26 oz bottle of their favorite spirit I'm sure would get you a little seat time if you're at all curious. It'll be well spent...
Yoda out (for now, but back you know I will be!
Frank's question was in a different thread, but your answer was thorough. LOL
It was 2 above my post- did I miss something???
ALB posted:Fpcopo VS posted:Stan and Mitch, after paying for a couple of ring gear swaps the five speed would seem cheap. What happened to me was the trans my car came with was supposed to be a freeway flyer and driving it around I was shocked at how low it was geared. First gear was like a granny low and fourth reminded me of a Chevelle I had with 4.88 gears. So I figured if the 3.88 was this bad I would go to the next step and get the 3.44s. When the trans guy got it apart and discovered it was a stock junk transaxle with a Krylon rebuild I already had bought all the gears. I did get a refund for the money I paid for the FF. So hear I am. The only way I would touch the trans again is if I pull the engine to do some more mods it because I finally got all the trans leaks mostly stopped!
Robert M posted:ALB posted:You know, Frank, a 5 speed would give you what you're looking for .
Seriously though- I remember having the conversation, but don't remember the contents exactly (a problem around here as well, according to my lovely better half), but I do know I've said before that when making changes you have to know what's in there now. Changing anything always affects something else; with a r&p, going longer gives better highway speeds, yes, but makes the car slower off the line. Now I know those of you that have done it (and love it) don't care about around town "zippiness", but that's what you lose. I've never driven a 3.44 equipped car, but my trans builder friend Bruce says it really turns a car into a slug off the line (his words, not mine) and it's not something to even think about unless you're running 2200cc's or more.
Found the conversation (pm entitled "Oil cooler" started 5/23/16) and you bought the 3.44 thinking your trans had a 3.88, but when taken apart found it was a 4.125. That is quite the jump. In retrospect I should have suggested you go with a 3.88 (you could have re-used the stock 4th) and sold the 3.44 if it wasn't needed, and for that I apologize.
"Yeah, but it's a bit more expensive than a ring & pinion change..."
It is, Will, but you'll get what you want. Next time you're with someone with a Berg 5 in their car ask to drive it. The joy of close gears and then 5th is something to be experienced. If (after driving your car again) you really don't see the point- I'll buy the beer first time we meet.
And yeah, I know it's big money ($5,000 give or take), but when you've spent 5-$10,000 (or more) on an engine, to make use of it's powerband the way it should be used is just icing on the cake. As I said (and this applies to any one)- if you get a chance to drive a 5 speed equipped car, jump on it! You'll get it.
I know Terry and Mitch (there are others, but can't think who else at the moment) have 5 speeds; the offer of a box of beer or 26 oz bottle of their favorite spirit I'm sure would get you a little seat time if you're at all curious. It'll be well spent...
Yoda out (for now, but back you know I will be!
Frank's question was in a different thread, but your answer was thorough. LOL
It was 2 above my post- did I miss something???
No, I did. I could have sworn Frank had a thread going about his R&P issues etc. Damn thread drift got me again.
Carry on!
DannyP posted:And I've hit a guard rail at 60mph head-on. Please put the compensator on, the life you save may be your own.
Don't be a fool and think "I don't drive that fast to need it". I call BS, everyone with a swing axle needs it.
I also used to drive around with only a lap belt on(and 4 points INSTALLED!) and now I always put all 5 belts on. How I didn't smash my face on the dash or steering wheel I'll never know. It was a serious wake-up call.
It's kinda like closing the barn door after the horses have run off.
None of us are immortal, folks.
Danny - Just so the rest of us can learn from your experience what exactly did you do to end up head on into a guard rail? How would a camber compensator have helped?
Fpcopo VS posted:I don't really see how this thing would work all that well given as how the spring is so weak.
Seems like it would be a walk in the park for a shop to fabricate a stronger one - anyone ever tried it?
Bill
Slowshoes:
The CB compensator works with the straps to lock the axle to the bar. The EMPI gets pushed down and pushes up on the opposite axle. The inside wheel in a corner causes the suspension to hang or extend, pushing downward on the compensator. This causes the compensator to pivot and push up on the outside wheel thereby preventing ANY jacking tendency. Basically works opposite to an anti-sway bar, but prevents positive camber on the outside wheel.
The compensator may have helped me, but impossible to know for sure. I was in a corner and got cut off which forced me to cut the wheel even harder, and maybe a bit on the harsh side. This either exceeded available traction or caused a bit of jacking which made the car go sideways. I steered into it at full opposite lock and left my foot alone on the gas pedal. It wasn't enough to bring it back in line. I could have let it spin but there was heavy traffic behind me and honestly I was afraid of getting run over. But there wasn't enough time to process all this and act. My instincts caused me to turn into the skid and not move my gas pedal foot. It was all over in a matter of seconds.
I continue to consider myself lucky to be here!
Danny, wouldn't camber straps work better to stop the inside axle from dropping than that wimpy leaf spring? 53-62 Corvettes have them I don't know how well they work on the Vette but it looks like a good option. I see EMPI makes them, they call them limit straps.
The point is NOT to stop the inside axle from extending, the point is to prevent jacking and wheel tuck. If the leaf spring was bigger it would increase the spring rate of the rear wheels too much, then it would ride too hard. The roll center of the suspension is high which causes the jacking effect, this is what we need to prevent.
Limit straps are exactly what the early formula vees used. So yes, I plan to investigate that, limiting positive camber to 2 degrees or less. But later on Vees used Z bars(similar to VW) and in the 70s to today zero-roll suspension which usually has a camber limiting rod and 1 shock/spring, bellcranks, and downrods to the hub.
Check this thread for photos: