I was thinking backwards. As you describe it the compensator should work as designed to stop the inner axle from jacking. Thanks Danny
That is very cool. Would something like that fit under a Spyder deck-lid, Danny?
It may, Stan, it may. I think different bellcranks to lower it and avoid the exhaust, but yes, I've contemplated it.
On the other hand, I'd like to just buy a Vee, get my SCCA license, and have at it. What a great way to tinker into retirement! Costs about 10K to run a season (repairs, maintenance, tires, and track fees) once you have all your equipment. I'm looking at one locally with spares and a trailer for less than $10k initial investment.
They are beautifully simple, offer wheel to wheel action at up to 120, cornering speeds are very high compared to street cars. Skill and smooth is how you win, they are momentum cars as they only have 50 hp and 1200cc.
I'd think different bellcranks would make it better, but the concept is genius.
Fpcopo VS posted:I was thinking backwards. As you describe it the compensator should work as designed to stop the inner axle from jacking. Thanks Danny
I can tell you from personal experience that the CB Camber Compensator works very well as designed. I have pushed my Speedster pretty hard while driving through the twists and the rear wheel will break loose long before there are any issues with it tucking under. I'd rather have the rear break loose than the wheel tuck loose as I can drive through the slide.
Robert M posted:Fpcopo VS posted:I was thinking backwards. As you describe it the compensator should work as designed to stop the inner axle from jacking. Thanks Danny
I can tell you from personal experience that the CB Camber Compensator works very well as designed. I have pushed my Speedster pretty hard while driving through the twists and the rear wheel will break loose long before there are any issues with it tucking under. I'd rather have the rear break loose than the wheel tuck loose as I can drive through the slide.
I'll have to replace the mounting studs with longer ones before I'll feel that the CB compensator is properly mounted. A couple of the nuts have thread remaining, even with them completely tightened down.
Anyone ever done this? Can I remove the studs using two nuts? Do the studs actually create a seal for the trans fluid, or can they be removed without worrying about draining the trans fluid?
Bill
You should be able to replace the studs with longer ones, as I don't think the threaded areas aren't open to the inside of the trans so there's no worry of leakage.
ALB posted:You should be able to replace the studs with longer ones, as I don't think the threaded areas are open to the inside of the trans so there's no worry of leakage.
fixed it
ALB posted:ALB posted:You should be able to replace the studs with longer ones, as I don't think the threaded areas are open to the inside of the trans so there's no worry of leakage.
fixed it
Thanks Al. I'm going to save this for a late fall/winter project.
I can tell you as fact that the studs DO NOT penetrate into the ring gear area, the bottom of the threaded holes are solid. Being as I've rebuilt my trans and had it apart a couple times.
And remember folks, it's the OUTER axle that jacks without the compensator.
DannyP posted:I can tell you as fact that the studs DO NOT penetrate into the ring gear area, the bottom of the threaded holes are solid. Being as I've rebuilt my trans and had it apart a couple times.
And remember folks, it's the OUTER axle that jacks without the compensator.
Thanks Danny - anyone know where to get the longer studs?
The outer wheel tucking seems so counterintuitive to me.
My local ACE Hardware has them in the "hardware" section.
McMaster-Carr has them, too:
@slowshoes - Here's a little illustration. The driver of the Spitfire is counter-steering to correct the impending spin.
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That's about what his butt cheeks are doin', too.
slowshoes posted:Robert M posted:Fpcopo VS posted:I was thinking backwards. As you describe it the compensator should work as designed to stop the inner axle from jacking. Thanks Danny
I can tell you from personal experience that the CB Camber Compensator works very well as designed. I have pushed my Speedster pretty hard while driving through the twists and the rear wheel will break loose long before there are any issues with it tucking under. I'd rather have the rear break loose than the wheel tuck loose as I can drive through the slide.
I'll have to replace the mounting studs with longer ones before I'll feel that the CB compensator is properly mounted. A couple of the nuts have thread remaining, even with them completely tightened down.
Anyone ever done this? Can I remove the studs using two nuts? Do the studs actually create a seal for the trans fluid, or can they be removed without worrying about draining the trans fluid?
Bill
I used the two nuts method. I called Troy Sloan and Teby S and had them come over. Once the two nuts were there to help I took off the original studs. Just kidding. The two nuts method works fine. I took off two of the studs on one side and replaced with the longer ones then the other side. No drips, no fuss, no mess.
Gordon Nichols posted:That's about what his butt cheeks are doin', too.
Will you "tranny's" rear end pucker up while you push it hard?
Swing-arm VW rears will, but mine? Nope.
I have an IRS rear (same parts as a 924/944 Porsche), so the wheels only go straight up and down - no pucker. I also have front and rear 3/4" Sway-Away anti-sway bars so it corners pretty flat.....Never been able to break the rear wheels loose, let alone get one off the ground. Lap time at Roebling Road was 1:22:68 That's right in the middle of Miata times.
A coworker happens to be a former stock car driver and took me out to the big lot to teach me a few things about cornering. I'm filming here and he was much better than me at keeping the back end planted, but he suggested I reach out to you all to for help controlling this a bit better. We tried changing the tire pressure a bit (5lbs more in the front) to balance it a bit better, but it still can break loose.
I'm sensitive to ground clearance though. Watching my fellow Speedsters in Tahoe a couple weeks back showed just how low these bars can go. I fear it being ripped from under my car from a pothole or railroad track. What is the first thing you recommend to tame the back end?
It's a stock VS 1915.
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Thanks for the info (and laughs!) fellas. Lane - that pic is downright scary.
Should I go stainless on the studs? (it's hard to get the mariner way of thinking out of my head - i.e. if it's metal, it better be stainless). Anyone remember the size?
Bill
Robert M posted:slowshoes posted:Robert M posted:Fpcopo VS posted:I was thinking backwards. As you describe it the compensator should work as designed to stop the inner axle from jacking. Thanks Danny
I can tell you from personal experience that the CB Camber Compensator works very well as designed. I have pushed my Speedster pretty hard while driving through the twists and the rear wheel will break loose long before there are any issues with it tucking under. I'd rather have the rear break loose than the wheel tuck loose as I can drive through the slide.
I'll have to replace the mounting studs with longer ones before I'll feel that the CB compensator is properly mounted. A couple of the nuts have thread remaining, even with them completely tightened down.
Anyone ever done this? Can I remove the studs using two nuts? Do the studs actually create a seal for the trans fluid, or can they be removed without worrying about draining the trans fluid?
Bill
I used the two nuts method. I called Troy Sloan and Teby S and had them come over. Once the two nuts were there to help I took off the original studs. Just kidding. The two nuts method works fine. I took off two of the studs on one side and replaced with the longer ones then the other side. No drips, no fuss, no mess.
Anytime Teby, Robert and I get together to work on a car it's more like an episode of the 3 stooges. It always ends with a call to Pat Downs to get the problem resolved. Nuk, Nuk, Nuk.
ALB posted:You should be able to replace the studs with longer ones, as I don't think the threaded areas aren't open to the inside of the trans so there's no worry of leakage.
You are correct, Sir! I had to do this when I installed mine...
slowshoes posted:Thanks for the info (and laughs!) fellas. Lane - that pic is downright scary.
Should I go stainless on the studs? (it's hard to get the mariner way of thinking out of my head - i.e. if it's metal, it better be stainless). Anyone remember the size?
Bill
No stainless hardware. It's soft.
So I modified the urethane bushing on the ends of the Empi compensator so they no longer rub on the shocks. I was hopeful this was going to be the cause and subsequent fix for my clicking/squeak issues coming from my suspension.
After taking a drive yesterday, we found the noise was still there. In an effort to try to determine what is going on, I starting rocking the rear of the car, and the noises were there.
I made a video and am posting with hopes that someone can put me on the right path to curing this. The noise is actually way louder with me rocking the rear end as opposed to when we're driving. (or maybe the engine is simply drowning some of it out when we're on the road.)
Any ideas?
Bill
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Sounds like (a.) dry spring plate bushings or (b.) a dry shock
Gordon Nichols posted:Sounds like (a.) dry spring plate bushings or (b.) a dry shock
Gordon,
Do the bushings need to be lubed or replaced? A dry shock would be leaking? If so, I don't see where it's been leaking.
Ryan in NorCal posted:
...I'm sensitive to ground clearance though. Watching my fellow Speedsters in Tahoe a couple weeks back showed just how low these bars can go. I fear it being ripped from under my car from a pothole or railroad track. What is the first thing you recommend to tame the back end?...
Ryan, anyone can drive one of those wussy IRS cars. But it takes a manly man to handle swing axles.
A good camber compensator will help some, but face it, with swing axles you just need to be careful. The back end will let go a whole lot faster than you'd ever guess. And sliding isn't the worst of it. When the outside rear wheel catches and digs in is when the real fun begins.
A good cornering strategy is slow in, fast out. When it just starts to slide or feel a little 'squirrelly' is the time to start correcting with the steering. Smooth is good. Avoid any abrupt steering, braking, or accelerator inputs. Setting your entry speed so that you don't have to brake at all is even better. Some find that prayer helps, too.
Ride height is a compromise. You want high to save your sump but low to help cornering. A higher back end is more prone to roll in any car, but with swing axles, camber also increases, making wheel tuck even more likely.
That said, after nearly ripping my drain plate off on a manhole cover, I decided to raise the back end a few inches even though it makes the stance unfashionable and lowers cornering limits. Brad Penn is just too expensive to be dumping all over the road, five quarts at a time.
I'd say you could dry sump it, but when EMPI absorbed Bugpack, one of the products that didn't make the cut was the dry sump pump.
That's a pity, because it means the dry sump pumps left out there are CB's cute little pumpette, and Auto-Craft's billion dollar solution.
Dry sump means never having to apoligize for being low.
"Some find that prayer helps, too."
Yup. I use that a lot.
Along with slightly higher rear tire pressures to stiffen the sidewalls from the over-flexing that makes the tire roll under on the outside.
The BIG trouble with swing-arm rear suspension, is that, depending on the rim width, the tire compound, the temperature and the sidewall flex, if you're pushing it really hard, it can go from understeer (plowing) to over steer (Rear comes around to meet the front) in way less than a heartbeat and with no warning. Sometimes you can feel it on the edge and steer it with your accelerator, but then it hits just a small patch of pavement weirdness and "POOF!" It's gone and you're in donut-mode at maximum Glute pucker.
My second Dune Buggy was a swing-arm and it was a New England ace at autocross, BUT (and this is a wicked big but), it was running deeply positively dished, 11" wide rear rims (yes, eleven inches wide) with the equivalent of 285 tires, which pushed the torque arm of the axles waaaaay out there, put one hell of a lot of rubber on the road and it also had a driving brake to each separate rear wheel - you actually steered with the dual rear brakes (with a little help from the steering wheel, but it just went along for the ride).
That is NOT how a Speedster is set up, with its' skinny, 5" rims set way inboard, so everybody running 356's on tracks in the '50's soon added camber compensators (CC) to (a.) lessen, not stop, instantaneous oversteer, (b.) keep both rear wheels closer to the ground on very hard cornering and (c.) reduce lap times. That was on the track, but a lot of those same guys drove their cars to and from the track and found that the CC worked really well on winding mountain/canyon roads, too.
So, Ryan....... What to do? 1. Keep your head. Drive within your abilities. Practice in very large, unoccupied parking lots at off hours til you get a feel for what your car will do under different circumstances - It's not the same as at speed on a track, but it's a start. Find someone or a track that's providing driver education courses and go there to learn (The PCA runs them all the time...so to other marques). There's a big difference in how your car handles at road speeds and track speeds, but when you're on the edge on either surface, you're on the edge - what you do to get out of trouble is the same. Find a driver's ed guy or gal who KNOWS Porsche handling characteristics and let them mentor you. They'll probably get a kick out of driving a replica and YOU will learn a lot and maybe keep yourself out of trouble. It's a lot like learning to ride a motorcycle - bikes are totally different between engine/power levels and suspension types and you HAVE to respect that.
2. Keep your rear tires slightly harder than the fronts. I would start at a minimum of 24 lbs., but that depends on the sidewalls - if you're running narrower sidewalls (like 40's or so) you can get by with lower tire pressure as there is less sidewall to flex, but you'll STILL have the un-weighting of the wheel to worry about in very hard cornering.
3. Get the widest tire/rim on the rear that you can, dished outward as much as the body will allow.
4. Read all you can on getting a VW Beetle to handle properly. I'm looking for the article from years ago by a couple of Aussies and can't find the damn thing, but this one is good, too: http://www.aircooled.net/vw-ha...g-suspension-tuning/
And when driving, remember what the Door Mouse said to Alice: "Keep your head!"
On the spring plate bushing squeaks. Make sure it is what is squeaking, first. Have someone rock the car to make it squeak, then reach under and in and put your fingertips on the torsion bar cover. If it is the bushing squeaking, then you should be able to feel it in your fingers.
It's a semi-major job to lube the rear bushings. The "official" way is to remove the torsion bar cover, release the spring plates from the suspension, pull the spring plate slightly out from the bushing without taking any fingers off (it's under tension, sitting on a stop), then "lube" the bushing and spring plate pivot with a liberal amount of talcum powder (I kid you not) and put it all back without changing the torsion bar spring rate.
So....Make sure it's the spring plate bushing squeaking, first. It might be something easier!
Grace Slick quotes the dormouse as saying: "...feed your head..."
but then...she probably never drove a plastic car, even on her many trips...
The local PCA has drivers education sessions several times a year. They told me I couldn't use my Speedster without a functioning roll bar.
Stan Galat posted:I'd say you could dry sump it, but when EMPI absorbed Bugpack, one of the products that didn't make the cut was the dry sump pump.
That's a pity, because it means the dry sump pumps left out there are CB's cute little pumpette, and Auto-Craft's billion dollar solution.
Dry sump means never having to apoligize for being low.
Stan, did you use a CB or Bugpack dry sump pump?
Stan Galat posted:Dry sump means never having to apoligize for being low.
Yeah, I guess. My CB thinline 1.5 quart sump is flush with the floor of my Spyder. How low do you need to go? I'll hit the exhaust before the sump.
Negative camber is the way with swing axle. As long as you limit them to 2 degrees positive, you're good.
Michael is right about DE(driver's education) track events. You need a three or four point functional rollbar to go on track. You also need a current Snell helmet, five or more point belts, arm restraints, and a fire system. If you have a closed conventional(mainstream?) vehicle, you can use the factory 3 point belts and a helmet and you're good to go.
For autocross you just need the helmet.
They told me I could take my Fiat instead of my Speedster. My wife isn't enthused about that. They have helmets for people without to borrow.
Yup, been there. Paid for a DE with my old Spyder and they wouldn't let me on the track. the three point bar went right in front of the instructor's face. I had all the other requirements. They wouldn't let me do a lead-follow by myself. A friend was kind enough to let me run sessions in his racetrack-only 944 with slicks. FUN!
Gordon Nichols posted:On the spring plate bushing squeaks. Make sure it is what is squeaking, first. Have someone rock the car to make it squeak, then reach under and in and put your fingertips on the torsion bar cover. If it is the bushing squeaking, then you should be able to feel it in your fingers.
It's a semi-major job to lube the rear bushings. The "official" way is to remove the torsion bar cover, release the spring plates from the suspension, pull the spring plate slightly out from the bushing without taking any fingers off (it's under tension, sitting on a stop), then "lube" the bushing and spring plate pivot with a liberal amount of talcum powder (I kid you not) and put it all back without changing the torsion bar spring rate.
So....Make sure it's the spring plate bushing squeaking, first. It might be something easier!
Gordon,
Thanks very much for your advice - I'll keep trying to determine where the noise is coming from. I haven't had time to do anything with the car today, but when we were going over it on Wednesday, the noise almost seemed to be coming from the engine compartment when laying on the ground. We I stood up and listened, it sounded like it was coming from under the car!
In any case, it sounds like I'll be in over my head if it's the spring plate bushing - it'll be yet more time in the shop for the car..... sigh.
Bill
slowshoes posted:DannyP posted:I can tell you as fact that the studs DO NOT penetrate into the ring gear area, the bottom of the threaded holes are solid. Being as I've rebuilt my trans and had it apart a couple times.
And remember folks, it's the OUTER axle that jacks without the compensator.
Thanks Danny - anyone know where to get the longer studs?
The outer wheel tucking seems so counterintuitive to me.
I'd call CB back and tell them to send them to you. I had to ask for them when I bought my Camber Compensator. I'm not sure why someone should have to ask since you can't install the CC without the longer studs.