Carb help- 40HPMX IDF, dual carbs

When I think of carb failure, I see this....  for some reason this scares me more than being T boned!

Yeah, with those I'd be scared of fire too! The plugs are failing because as usual, although Empi seems to have reverse engineered these carbs properly, they've cheaped out dropped the ball when it comes down to the details. If you can get another carb top, great; just keep an eye on the plugs to see if one starts doing the same thing again. And I would be talking to my mechanic, as I'm guessing that big backfire before he looked at it was the source of the torched air filter. I could be wrong, but it looks suspicious. Al

Yup. Empi scores again.... 

PS- Do you know of an Empi dealer locally that you can inform them of this problem? And if they tell you "gee, never heard of this before", shake your head, 'cause with 2 carb tops doing the same thing you know you're being lied to.

Just be sure you have a good Agreed Value policy and that you are always "driving it for pleasure." 

If you are concerned about a possible fire, do yourself a favor and install an approved fire suppression device.  There are a number of members on here that have purchased approved systems, and a number that have installed non-approved ones.  To me, it's another form of insurance.  Would any of us buy insurance from an offshore company that was unregulated?  Pay extra for peace of mind.  Guys with approved fixed systems may chime in. 

I have been to LOTS of car fires in another life, and I feel strongly about approved, tested systems vs. an unknown product.  Pay once, cry once.

I think it's time to replace those carbs. You will already know what kind you don't want and what to look for on the new ones...Times 2 on what troy says and a good Halgard extinguisher if you don't already have something bigger and better.......Bruce

You dodged a FIRE!

Thanks for the responses.

have it all appart now.  The #3 bowl is appears to be the source of the burn.  Both are pretty dark w/sud, the #3 even with a LED light on it is just black.  City  Qtip I cleaned a little to show the contrast

- can this be cleaned? And safe to drive afterwards?

- may just be time for new Webber carbs.  Cheap fix, if one compares it to a possible fire scenario.

- no local EMPI shops, but a Webber shop not far from the house.

- i have sent out a note to EMPI US, in California.  They were very helpful sourcing a new top and servicing the other carb last year.

- I do have an engine compartment safecraft extinguisher, as well as a hand held I carry in the cabin.

- also an agreed upon value policy with America Modern, which includes a 2 day per week "commuter clause"... in addition to the show/parade/and casual driving clauses.    I believe a member on this site put a similar policy to the test a year or two back, and he was happy how they treated them. ( the owner of the red car I attached earlier pictured in flames.)  I HOPE NEVER TO HAVE TO PUT THE POLICY TO THE TEST ;-)

...

looks like I will be driving the 2015 until I get this sorted.  Kind of a bummer because the weather in Seattle is spectacular!

im attaching some pictures forssual aids:

Just curious if the VW Dual carb setup is any more prone to fire over other engines with Webers?

Marty Grzynkowicz posted:

Just curious if the VW Dual carb setup is any more prone to fire over other engines with Webers?

THE DIESELS with WEBERS(LOL) are less likely as they use DIESEL fuel or FRENCH FRY oil......I tell you there is nothin better for your appetite than following a FRENCH FRY burning SPEEDSTER down the FREEWAAY

Marty Grzynkowicz posted:

Just curious if the VW Dual carb setup is any more prone to fire over other engines with Webers?

I think the VW engine bay, being sealed off at the bottom, is what's more prone to fire.

Gas vapor, which is denser than air, settles to the bottom of a closed container. Most other engine bays are open at the bottom, so gas vapor vents away and can't accumulate.

It's for this reason that diesel is much preferred for inboard engines on boats. Standard startup procedure for gas-engined marine inboards is to ventilate the bilge thoroughly before starting and to check the bilge blower output for gas fumes.

Ever notice that most local building codes require garage floors to slant downward towards the outside edge and that, if the garage is attached to a dwelling, the floor must be a step or two below the floor of the dwelling? Again - this is to let gas vapors vent out of the garage and not into the house.

When gas burns, it's not the liquid gas that's actually burning, but the highly flammable layer of vapor just above the liquid.

Maybe our cars should have bilge blowers, too?

Yes, two carbs = twice the risk for a fuel leak, twice the vapors etc...

Luis,

the first picture was my VS with Webbers. I then bought a Beck (Rich Dreweck's car) with Dells. 

On your advise, I also installed the same Safecraft auto tube you have. 

Worth every penny to know it is back there over carbs. 

The Raby 2.7L in back of the Beck is an engine I would never want to have to replace. 

Cheers,

Tom L

Oh, and yes, American Modern was great in taking care of my Agreed Value loss. 

Those "plugs" painted black look like that area was simply patched with JB Weld or chewing gum.  Shouldn't there be a threaded brass plug (or lead/aluminum plug)  securely fixed in those holes?  I'd pull the black out and check for threaded and get a brass plug. I can't see the black plugged area in your second set of pictures - is one of circled brass areas a black plug?

Thanks Guys...  

So what should I do? Thoughts are welcomed!

1- fix the current carb? I JDWeld the plug leak, cleaned everything I could, including all the jets.  ( to pass the time).  I did notice the #3 idle jet was missing the rubber O ring... And gas appeared to have leaked from here as well. ( will need to talk to the mapechamic about this... how could he forget to not put it back last WED after he tuned the carbs and clean d the clog jet).  The JD Weld is a band aid until I hear back from empi about a replacement top.  The carb may benefit from a rebuild kit to make sure all the soft parts are ok after the BBQ.... for now everything is just on the bench.  

2- get a new Empi HPMX to replace my current BBQ edition? 238$ no tax, free shipping.  May need to buy a spare card considering the failure rate of components.

3- get two new Webber 40s. Local shop has them in stock and ready for pick-up.  329$ per carb + tax.

4- get different carbs.. like a Dells if I can find them?  

Side not...Apparently Empi now also makes a Dell knock offs. Anyone tried these?

... this is not my dream engine, but it goes strong for now.   I would love to get the car safely back on the road as soon as possible.

any thoughts/ recommendations? Many thanks!

LFEPARDO how old was the first carb before replacement. Then how old is the current carb with issues?

@WOLFGANG  All three circled areas in you picture match what I have - a brass plug in each of these areas,

In the center of these three brass pieces, there is a bored hole, which is typically filled with a plug/circular fitting... for some reason, on top f that fitting my HPMX had what looked like epoxy/gum like /jdweld.    This is where my small leak was coming from...

the EMPI service dept put this  over the plug as a belt and suspenders preventative measure last year, when they serviced the carbs and the other carb top cover was replaced....

 back ground--- as part of my guarantee service last year... I sent them both carbs, they replaced the top of one, and the other, which was not leaking, they just put that gum like substance over the non-leaking plug. Then sent me back both carbs at no charge.  It was actually GREAT customer support considering I did not buy the carbs, as they came installed on the new build car and I did not have any proof of purchase of the carbs.

this gum like epoxy paste  pealed right off when I pulled on it today... reveling the cleaner plug like in your picture, or Webber carbs.

hope this makes some sense... I have been sniffing gas fumes working over the carb all afternoon.  ;-)  ;-(

@WOLFGANG Car was built by VS in 2013.  Both carbs were assumed to be new.  Which I believe they were because EMPI started building the 3.0 version I have about that time.

First carb plug leaked Spring 2016. second on Friday, 2017.  

Not too old.

I'm guessing the JB Weld (even if surface was perfectly clean when applied) doesn't bond during the heat/cooling cycles experienced and perhaps isn't all that impervious to gas.  Years ago my dad used Devcon 10610 Aluminium Putty (F) to repair an inboard boat manifold - it lasted years.  It can be machined and has a high aluminum content.  If a good machinist can't tap and plug with aluminum/brass plug, it might be worth a try. Maybe MarkT @MARKSBUG will read this and comment (he's machinist with VW/Speedster interest).

@WOLFGANG. Many thanks.

im really leaning forward just picking up a new carb ( a replacement HPMX), or just getting two new webbers.    The idea of driving with one carb which may have incurred any fire damage makes me a little unsettled.

i will take it in to the Webber shop Monday ( CarbsUnlimited).  They told me they wouldn't work on it... but maybe while there, a friendly mechanic may look at it and give me his/her opinion.

Fingers crossed.

Me... IMHO would replace the carbs and have peace of mind.. I have purchased Weber knock offs on eBay in the past, they are exact duplicates I (I did reset the floats) and performed as they should. You can get back some of your expense buy selling your old carbs as  parts" on the SAMBA.

EMPI should refund you...get new carbs, it's not worth the car burning to the ground!

many thanks Alan and Bill.  Can't wait for the stores to open tomorrow and to have a conversation with my mechanic. 

I did notice reading carb specs over coffee that the stock set up of the 40 HPMX and the 40Webber she is a bit different... ( jetting wise)

while the empi scare me a bit after this last BBQ, my mild 1915cc VS built car with the Hpmx has run great for over 40,000miles, with basic maintenance...  ( pulls strong from 1000-4800 rpm's... seldomly do I take it much higher...)

as a carb novice, would I try to match the jetting /set up of new webbers to match the Hpmx? Or just start from Webber stock set up, and see how it runs/tune/sincroniza?

i was lucky, and the current engine/carbs combo ran great right out of the box ( after initial tuning/sinchronization)... until the top cover gas leak in 2016 ... which was fixed by replacing the top cover,.,..  so having to replace/tune new carbs to the engine is new to me.  

Fortunately they local engine guy is good... most of the time.

cheers!

@Pat Downs, thank you for taking the time today to answer some Qs about my carburetor purchase.  Can't wait to get the new carbs, and install on my VS.

Your awesome!

cheers,

Luis

For anyone interested.

- Empi stepped up again, and offered to replace the leaky top, at no expense to me. I will get them fixed, and probably sell them/ with full disclosure and history of the two replaced top covers due to leaks. Their customer service, in California, has been VERY VERY good the two times I needed help with the carbs.

They fixed/ replaced parts at no cost, all with-in the week. Other than the leak, the HPMX w/ Jet Doctors ( from CB) have run great, and required very little tinkering with over the past +30,000 miles!   But very strange that the gas inlet plugs failed in both of the carbs. I feel I got lucky by catching both leaks before a fire.

- For piece of mind, I ordered two new Webber IDF 40s from CB Performance.  Pat and his team where awesome. He offered to re-jet the carbs to try to match the VS 1915 with the vintage speeds exhaust. Can't wait to put them on.

- I researched buying Dell's....  not easy to find.

Thanking you for your help.   Hopefully I will be back on the road this weekend.

happy motoring!

For the record, LFEPARDO has had problems with EMPI HPMX copies of Weber carbs, not actual Weber carbs.

I've never seen a Spanish or Italian Weber fail at those points. Just sayin'