I forgot to add that it is a bear of a time to get the car started if it sits more than a day or two or if it is cold outside.  dells with no chokes certainly not a help.

You need this relay.

Or this: http://revolutionelectronics.com/Fuel_Pump.html

thanks glenn....that is a neat controller from revolution...are you running one of those?

That is a GREAT product.  At first, I thought it a little pricey, but then thought about a couple of different alternative designs and both would cost more to do than that relay kit.

Thanks for the tip, Glenn!

PaulEnvemo posted:

thanks glenn....that is a neat controller from revolution...are you running one of those?

No... i'm running a mechanical pump.

That's a cool little controller. I will point out, however, that if you have carbs which are prone to go dry after sitting for a while (I'm looking at you, Dellorto fan-boys), 3 seconds isn't going to cut it if the car hasn't run for a week or so.

My set-up: pump in the front, by the tank. Runs with key in the on position, no provision for ignition signal or rollover safety. Starting procedure: turn on key, wait for pump to change pitch (needle valves closing and pump dead-heading), pump accelerator several times, crank while pumping, start car. 

Pertaining to the lack of safeties: if I roll over in this car-- the pump running is going to be the least of my concerns, especially given that the fuel pick-up is a gravity feed off the bottom of the tank (which would be the top of the tank if I were upside down). Since there is no rollbar, and the windshield is firmly attached to... fiberglass, my head would likely be scraping the road like a little pink eraser. I'm thinking bursting into flames might not be such a bad thing in the event of having the shiny side down, except that it wouldn't because of the aforementioned fuel pick-up situation.

Running some kind of relay or fuse Stan ?

I was thinking the same thing. 3 seconds for dells might not be enough. 

PaulEnvemo posted:

Running some kind of relay or fuse Stan ?

Fuse: yes, relay: no.

I've got a fuse block for keyed power. I think I've got a 5a fuse on the pump.

Fuel Pump Inertia Safety Cutoff Switch

http://www.amazon.com/5L2z9341...f-Ford/dp/B0042HK0NO

Thanks for that link to ....    http://revolutionelectronics.com/

I found a few interesting modules there like intermittent wipers... Headlight daytime running and auto shut off with key off, and it seems there working on a speed variable volume control... neet stuff anyone use these on their car? 

I have a facet electric pump. I also have an inertia safety cutoff switch (out of a Peugot 205) I'm not sure what spec pump you have or the pressure requirement for your carbs (I have webers - they have a max 3psi requirement) The facet pump I have pumps out 4-5 psi. I have a regulator to drop the pressure. I run at 2-2.5 psi. It works.

That sounds like the same facet pump I have. I was also considering the oil pressure style kill switch too.  Don't know yet.  I suppose with that gizmo that Glenn suggested if 3 seconds to fill is not long enough you could always reset the ignition key and do it a second time for another 3 seconds. 

If the Facet pump works for you, then great. Just be aware that there are some models of that brand that don't even pump the volume of a stock mechanical fuel pump, so if you ever experience the engine going lean and running out of fuel (at higher rpm's) you'll know the fix. Al

Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:

That's a cool little controller. I will point out, however, that if you have carbs which are prone to go dry after sitting for a while (I'm looking at you, Dellorto fan-boys), 3 seconds isn't going to cut it if the car hasn't run for a week or so.

Stan, that was my first thought. It is a great idea but it needs to run a little longer.  I'm using the Facet pump that is a copy of the old Bendix blue top through a relay. It has worked really well so far. What I did have trouble with was the cheap Mr. Gasket dial a pressure regulator. The fuel pressure was all over the place. A guy told me about Malpassi regulators and I got one of those. What a difference. When you set the pressure, it never varies and solved a lot of carb problems. You can get them at CB Perf.

Hi,

I just did it with two usual automotive relays:

The first is switching on the fuep pump, wehn tere is oil pressure.

The second is connected to the starter and switches on the pump during the engine start, when there is not enough oil pressure.

works perfect also when the car was not used for a while and it was really cheap.

cheers

Jan

I'm not a fan of the Facet/Empi pumps due to their high failure rate.  A rotary $70 pump is preferable.  The Facets need to mounted in the front under the tank as they push and don't pull the gas.  I'd just wire with a toggle switch under the dash - turn it off when parked and you have an anti-thief system (thief will get a block or 2 allowing you time to lock and load).  Be sure to mount it on rubber insulating studs.

so wolfgang where do you mount the rotary pump? in the engine bay?

Electric pumps are pushers and should be mounted up front.

It really doesn't matter on the rotary pump.  There's lots of room under the tank and it's easily accessible there plus good safe place for a filter and even a fuel cut off switch. 

One thing I miss on my original 356A was the reverse switch under the dash I found the bottom of the tank on many of my cars in the early years.

IaM-Ray posted:

One thing I miss on my original 356A was the reverse switch under the dash I found the bottom of the tank on many of my cars in the early years.

As long as you don't forget to close it after fill up...

I'm not very comfortable with my mechanical fuel pump because Al Merklin won't always be around to diagnose and tweak a repair!...so I'm looking at two substitute options in my lap:

CB Performance #3193 rotary, and a Mr.Gasket #42S micro electric.

Glenn Ring comments that the small micro electric is a 'pusher' and should be mounted "up front" (under the tank?)... Greg Seitz, Wolfgang, comments that "it doesn't matter where the rotary is mounted"  (is that because it's a 'puller'?)

 I'd appreciate experienced opinions as to which of the two is a better choice. I don't mean to open a can of worms by rehashing this subject and extending this thread, so a 'private message' might be the way to advise me. BTW, I'm also looking at a mechanical pump block-off plate that has is fitted with an angled, threaded, vent. I have no idea what I'm supposed to 'vent' it to!

Many thanks in advance....Carl

Hey, i could be wrong, but i've always been told they should be mounted near the tank.

Think about where car manufacturers mount their electric pumps. Most front engine cars have it mounted between the rear axle and the tank. And others put it in the tank.

FYI, I had my rotary pump installed in front near the tank and it worked great there it eliminated the issues I had with the mechanical pump which were a slowly dying pump... symptoms, vapour lock, and lower top end fuel starvation. 

Carl Berry CT. posted:

I'm not very comfortable with my mechanical fuel pump because Al Merklin won't always be around to diagnose and tweak a repair!...so I'm looking at two substitute options in my lap:

CB Performance #3193 rotary, and a Mr.Gasket #42S micro electric.

Glenn Ring comments that the small micro electric is a 'pusher' and should be mounted "up front" (under the tank?)... Greg Seitz, Wolfgang, comments that "it doesn't matter where the rotary is mounted"  (is that because it's a 'puller'?)

 I'd appreciate experienced opinions as to which of the two is a better choice. I don't mean to open a can of worms by rehashing this subject and extending this thread, so a 'private message' might be the way to advise me. BTW, I'm also looking at a mechanical pump block-off plate that has is fitted with an angled, threaded, vent. I have no idea what I'm supposed to 'vent' it to!

Many thanks in advance....Carl

 

 

Giday, Carl. First thing I did was install a Facet ( ******** ) low pressure pump after getting the car home for the first time in 2010.  Ew,  apparently we cannot say vibrat ( or )  on this forum.

It was always noisy and when I heard about the rotary types I bought one and it's been running very well ( almost silently ) for the last few years. Recently I bought another for a spare and was toying with the idea of mounting it in parallel with the existing pump like we used to do with the Facet pumps in homebuilt airplanes... ( Subaru and Corvair ).  I can't remember how much room I have under there but will get a look this weekend while changing out the rad.

my fuel pump vibrates like a ********!

Yeah, I trash-canned my FACET solenoid pump after five minutes for that very reason - the clacking drove me NUTS!

First of all, most rotary and solenoid pumps are "pushers", meaning that they rely TOTALLY on having a gravity-fed fuel source, because they can't (because of their geometry and the design of their one-way valves) forcefully pull fuel into the pump cavity - it must be supplied to the pump at whatever rate the pump can push it out the other end (don't fret, Carl, a 1/4" ID fuel line with even 1/2 gallon of fuel in the tank overhead is sufficient).  Some of these pumps will NOT pass fuel out the other side unless they have a gravity feed coming in the front end.

So to Wolfie's point of where you position a pump; "It really doesn't matter on the rotary pump. "  NO, that's not the case.  For EITHER most rotary/centrifugal fuel pumps or a solenoid pump, it should be mounted below, and as close to the fuel tank as possible. Also to Wolfie's other point; there is PLENTY of space on the shelf below the tank and ahead of the passenger side of the cockpit (beyond the front "firewall") to mount a fuel filter, one or two fuel shut-off valves, a rotary/solenoid pump and another solenoid pump for your gas heater (if you have one).  Trust me, I've just done it.  1/4" tubing between everything and decent clamps and walk away assured that it's gonna work.

Al Gallo installed a West Marine 1/4" fuel shut-off valve on his car (really nice, and cheap), while I used a 1/4" shut-off valve for a Tecumseh Lawn Mower engine.  Meh...  They're both gonna work.

IaM-Ray posted:

FYI, I had my rotary pump installed in front near the tank and it worked great there it eliminated the issues I had with the mechanical pump which were a slowly dying pump... symptoms, vapour lock, and lower top end fuel starvation. 

I've had the same Brosol mechanical pump, with "C" clips on the pivot, for 10 years and it's never failed.

Aircooled.net sells the same pump.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/M...r-p/113-127-025g.htm

If you want an electric pump, get this one and mount it up front.

Rotary Electric Fuel Pump, 3.25 psi Low Pressure, 7mm Fuel Inlet and Outlets

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/R...ittings-p/rotary.htm

Glenn Ring posted:

IaM-Ray posted:

FYI, I had my rotary pump installed in front near the tank and it worked great there it eliminated the issues I had with the mechanical pump which were a slowly dying pump... symptoms, vapour lock, and lower top end fuel starvation. 

I've had the same Brosol mechanical pump, with "C" clips on the pivot, for 10 years and it's never failed.

 

Aircooled.net sells the same pump.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/M...r-p/113-127-025g.htm

If you want an electric pump, get this one and mount it up front.

Rotary Electric Fuel Pump, 3.25 psi Low Pressure, 7mm Fuel Inlet and Outlets

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/R...ittings-p/rotary.htm

 

You running dual webers or dells with that brosal pump?  I've burn through 2 of those in 10 years. Latest one is a us made airtex and I think it's shot after 2 years.  

 

 

 

 Your mileage may vary on any system  

PaulEnvemo posted:

 You running dual webers or dells with that brosal pump?  I've burn through 2 of those in 10 years. Latest one is a us made airtex and I think it's shot after 2 years.  

Same pump...

Here's my previous 1904cc with dual Dellortos, around 2004

Here's my current 2180 being built in 2007.

Same pump back in 2010 when i had to have a broken diff replaced.

I can go take a picture tonight and you'll see the same pump.

I've installed a number of the aircooled.net pumps in other engines i've built and never had a problem.

Electric pumps have a number of issues such as too much pressure, noise and danger after an accident. I once saw a Porsche 914 burn to the ground because the electric fuel pump emptied the tank until the wiring melted and it stopped.

The mechanical pump does have it's limitation, but if you don't have a race car, you'll have a hard time hitting it on the street.

which begs the question...why does the fuel in my dells evaporate so quickly?  once I get the car started every thing is fine...it runs strong with no flat spots or pops...It just seems that if I let it sit for say 3 days or so it will not start without numerous cranking attempts or after a week a little spritz of gasoline down the carbs to get her going.  very frustrating.  

No idea, my car can sit for weeks and it starts after a few pumps of the pedal.

I'd bet the fuel line has a "P-Trap" in it...causing an air pocket in the line somewhere.

Glenn Ring posted:

No idea, my car can sit for weeks and it starts after a few pumps of the pedal.

Same with me. My car can sit for a few weeks (rarely does it) and it starts without any issues and I have a stock mechanical pump.

It's because of the Dellortos.

They're Hot Italians, ya know?  Evaporate the gas right out of them.

question: witch kind of isolation flange is mounted under the carburetor? I guess if it is just a thin one ore a paper sealing, this also can cause the evapurating and overheating of the carburetor.

see picture:

Jan