I’ve searched though the forum but haven’t found any recent (in the last year or so) comments/opinions on this engine builder. Anyone have experience with his motors? I know Pat very highly regarded - but curious if Chico is close to this standard. Thanks everyone.
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Take a look over at Samba. There's a long thread. My quick glanced showed many happy customers.
Thanks Art. I’ll admit I never think about Samba- I’ve become so accustomed to reading on this site only.
Those of you who’ve read my earlier threads know that I’m planning a build- coming soon- and once again I find myself debating my decision of AC vs WC. Anyway - I don’t want to belabor that topic, just wanted to give a little more background to my question about Chico vs CB.
Pm @Stan Galat. IIrc he had an engine built by Chico a few years ago and will have something to say.
Thanks ALB. If I ultimately decide on AC I’ll likely go with CB but thought I should do some investigating.
If I was buying a new engine, I'm not, based solely on the comments. opinions, of folks input here, Pat Downs, wins hands down.
ALB posted:Pm @Stan Galat. IIrc he had an engine built by Chico a few years ago and will have something to say.
We corresponded via PM.
I'd build with Pat Downs.
Bwkirk posted:Thanks ALB. If I ultimately decide on AC I’ll likely go with CB but thought I should do some investigating.
I'd go with Pat D. Others have gone some other route and they usually come back to Pat anyway. Forget going in crazy circles and start where you're going to end up anyway.
I bought a speedster from a guy that had a real bad experience with Chico's built motor (not in the car I bought because it blew).
Go with Pat and never look back.
Thanks guys....helps to confirm my decision. It’s a lot of money to build a car so want to do it right the first time. Still debating the AC vs WC option.....once my taxes are done I’ll make my decision and pull the trigger. I’ve learned that there no “correct” answer just two sides - both with pluses and minuses.
I had Pat's engine in my car for over 5 years and the previous owner had it for 5 years and it is still going today on the 4th owner 
Thanks Ray- that seems to be the norm for CB- which is absolutely what I’m after.
I've got over 50k miles on one of Pat's motors. If I wanted air-cooled I wouldn't go anywhere else.
I had a 2332 of Pat’s in my previous IM, which I bought used, and which I then sold for my IM6. So, that is three owners that I know of, and no issues.
I have a 2054 CB motor. Puchased from Tom via Carey. No problems. Its missing a hundered or so ccs... Other than that... No issues.
May take it to @Pat Downs to bump it up a bit more.
TRP posted:I have a 2054 CB motor. Puchased from Tom via Carey. No problems. Its missing a hundered or so ccs... Other than that... No issues.
May take it to @Pat Downs to bump it up a bit more.
Of course, these cars could always use a little more power...
@Pat Downs has built a few engines for me! The first two I've run and were OUTSTANDING. The last one is headed to the car any moment, and I have no doubts about it! Pat is discerning about parts, and understands these motors at a very deep level. The sheer number of motors he's built, and his ability to reflect upon past experience to make the next one "that much better" is what I really love.
2165 cc that went in my BECK Spyder. Amazing all the way around!
2332 cc EFI motor that went in my coach built 1959 BINZ Double cab. The thing did wheelies! Totally unreal.
2332 cc Faux Cam Carrera Motor (up close!) -- more pics on another topic for those interested. A departure from his standard build, and he still hit a home run!
I agree 100 percent Anand! If I were ordering a motor today, I'd go with Pat Downs at CB. Period.
BTW, where and what are you using for an oil fill on the Faux Cam? I used a cut-down distributor and a steel tube pressed together on mine with a 911 shroud. And a repurposed Vanagon dipstick and tube! You'll need it on the Spyder.
Bwkirk posted:I’ve searched though the forum but haven’t found any recent (in the last year or so) comments/opinions on this engine builder. Anyone have experience with his motors? I know Pat very highly regarded - but curious if Chico is close to this standard. Thanks everyone.
Bruce (Aircooled) knows him real well and speaks highly of Chico’s. PM him for info.
I have had a great experience with Chico. I found the proximity was a big plus. My 2276 @140 hp full flow is about a year old. I have always heard great things about Pat D but no first hand experience. Again proximity to just drive over and get a tune up was a factor for me.
I bought a CB engine builders kit from CB (2110cc) Assembled it myself then took it to Chico for Dyno work here in Arcadia. Chico lives in Arcadia and his shop is here too. It's about 2 miles from me. I have seen Pat Downs at Chico's twice and been to lunch with them. Both are totally dedicated to this industry, very crafty, knowledgeable, informed on state of the art in the industry, and diligent. Pat and Chico meet and confer on mutual or separate issues as needed. On top of that they are friends and both race cars at the drags. Both shops (Chico's and Pat's) are super clean and very professional looking.
Pat works for CB. A large company with deep resources. Chico owns and operates his own business and has been successful doing so for many years. The difference between them and how they make decisions is pretty much predicated on the difference above but both really care about customer satisfaction in the end. After having established a relationship with Chico in the last couple of years, I feel comfortable to recommend him to do your work much the same as I would Pat. Both are fine men and craftsmen as well. (Thanks Frank for putting me up to this ! The Grand Nationals were in Pomona last week end. I was hoping to see you.)...............Bruce
Thank you Bruce. I appreciate your comments.
So what numbers did your 2110 put up?
Chico uses Jack Sachette’s dyno, so a 2110 with a 120 cam pulls somewhere between 160-200 hp, using the OCCF (Orange County Correction Factor).
Edsnova.....On Chico's Stuska Dyno it put out 136 hp. This may seem low but it's just the difference on how different Dynos read. It's just as Stan is saying about the "OCCF" in the following post. CB advertises that the engine kit I bought will produce 151 HP. If I use the "CBPCF" (CB Performance correction Factor) My engine produced 154 HP. As you can see there's a big difference in the numbers. Also, an accomplished dyno operator can, somewhat, influence how high the horsepower number will be so I guess what I'm saying is...not all Dynos read the same and the operators as well. Using the same Dyno guy every time is well worth it if you want a pretty good comparison. A Dyno test is well spent money when you're trying to get the peak power out of your engine but I don't think it's reliable information to advertise/compare horsepower comparisons.
Stan...you are right on with your "OCCF". Question...is Jack Sachette a brand of dyno or the former owner of Chico's Dyno ?...........Bruce
Jack Sachette owns JayCee. 10 years ago, Chico did his pulls on Jack’s dyno. I’ve got no idea what he’s doing now.
I knew this question would stir the pot!
Torque is king!
Bill...could you tell me why you think torque is king ?......Bruce
Speaking of Pat Downs....I just read in Hot VW Mag that he set a new EPCRA record Low ET for the 1/8 th mile of 5.01 in the final back in October in North Carolina. And yes...he was driving it.
From my days of racing, we would use the engine dyno at kawells to tune the motor. Yes the torque and hp numbers were nice, but it's all up to how good you are with operating the throttle and water control. Having put customers car on my neighbors wheel dyno I feel you get a better reading of the actual out put. Its nice to use my engine stand to break the cam in and tune the motor but remember the final test is in the car on that winding road. And that's where the 4spd to 5spd debate comes.
Torque is the actual force that moves an object around a pivot.
Horsepower, was designed as an advertising gimmick, to help sell cars.
That long even (up top) torque line is what you want. .
You actually want a good combination of torque and Hp and you want the torque curve to be as flat as possible. The engine in my race car makes 400hp and 300lbs of torque at the flywheel. Peak torque is at 6800 rpm but it’s nearly flat from 5700-7900 rpm, peak Hp is at 8900 rpm
Blake spend the money once and with the right builder. Many on this forum have tried to build a performance engines from various builders in the range of 5-6k and have almost always been disappointed. For perspective I am preparing options for a Alfa 2.0 performance engine and the head alone for fast road use is 5k. Thats is if I purchased it ready to install. Locally, I can get the machine work done for less, but its still likely going to cost 3-4k just for the head. Jack crosby had his 1915cc engine dyno tested before going to a type-4 and the rear wheel HP was a staggering 52hp. Granted this what we call a mexicrate build, but the builder used to advertise this engine as 110hp. If that was a real 110hp engine the rear wheel number should have been more like 90. Again the OCCF (Orange County Correction Factor) was hard at work.
If I was doing an AC engine in a Speedster again, I would do everything possible to keep the weight down and have a quality built engine with less that 2000cc's. I would want all German parts when available and shoot for a honest 110-120 hp. I would also spend money on unsprung weight on the suspension, brakes and tires. This would give someone a fun, reliable and low maintenance car. Unless you spend 10k plus on a performance build, we just have to face the reality that we are likely to get smoked off the line by every college girl driving her new Ford Focus. Now, get on a back road with the top down, flowers in bloom, and AC motor winning in your ear and then the drag race you just lost will fade into a distant memory.
Wow. Alfa Romeo REALLY bought into the whole "hemi" thing, back in the day.
I think I can beat any college girl in a ford Focus off the line!
Oh, Another piece of unsolicited advice. Never tell anyone that's not deeply into the hobby how much you spent on your performance built lawn mower engine. They will either think you're rich or just plain crazy. Tiny euro performance in an old school car cost lots of $$$$.
Wow....Peak torque is really up there in your RPM range, Pat. Although in a drag car, I shouldn't be surprised!
I was always told that horsepower is the combination of the benefits of the engine’s raw abilities combined with RPMs. And RPMs are what allow us to use gearing effectively, which gives us more torque at the wheels by the mechanical advantage of different gearing. And torque at the wheels is what gets us to the finish line faster because gearing magnifies torque.
Horsepower is the product of torque and RPMs (divided by 5252). It’s not unrelated, separate, or different.
Marty Grzynkowicz posted:Oh, Another piece of unsolicited advice. Never tell anyone that's not deeply into the hobby how much you spent on your performance built lawn mower engine. They will either think you're rich or just plain crazy. Tiny euro performance in an old school car cost lots of $$$$.
Oh, wow. That hits close to home.
I never set out to be a cautionary tale, but if somebody else can learn from my hubris, then it's probably worthwhile to dredge up the past.
When I was building my Intermeccanica back in 2005, I didn't want to spend what I thought was long money for a turnkey car. I saved what I thought was PLENTY of money by building a running gear delete coach with Henry (who was using Rancho transaxles and Pat Downs engines).
I had a 2110 built by a (now defunct) bottom-feeder builder around a set of AJ Sims "big" Kadrons (46mm) and a set of his heads (ported 040s). The engine was OK-ish, but it also was run on the Jaycee dyno and made 135 hp (which in reality was about 110). I saved a couple thousand dollars and thought I was a genius. The thing was-- the engine wouldn't idle for love or money, and was undrivable under part-throttle conditions. The needle and seats could not be made to seal, and it ran pig-rich and loaded up.
I called Art Thraen, who gently told me I'd purchased a bill of goods from AJ. He sold me a set of 40 Dellortos. I sent him the intake gaskets, and he port-matched the manifolds. This was in 2006, and I think it was $1000 for everything, so my savings was now less than $1000, and I'd burned a summer dorking around.
The 2110 was probably good enough, but I had asked Rancho to build me a transaxle with a stock 3rd and a .82 4th with a 3.88 R/P. The reach from 3 to 4 was ridiculous, and the 2110 absolutely fell on it's face on an upshift. Rather than just admit I didn't know what I was doing and re-gear the 4-speed, I decided there was no hole in gearing that couldn't be overcome with torque.
I did my interweb research, and landed on a special 2332 Anabel Chico had built which he was calling his "chocolate motor". It was advertised as having an unearthly amount of torque right off idle, and building to a 200 hp crescendo at about 6500 RPM. All this was on the Jaycee dyno, so the numbers definitely had the OCCF baked in the cake. The "chocolate motor" seemed like just the torque-monster ticket for my mistake of a transaxle. The "base" chocolate motor was $8000 in 2008 but I wanted Dellortos instead of IDAs, a sidewinder instead of a merge header, and Chinese nikies instead of Mahle cylinders. I wanted ceramic coatings in the chambers and exhaust ports. I'm ashamed to say the engine rang in over $10,000. Way over.
It was impressive, but it had issues. The ring seal was horrible, and it threw oil from the day I put it in. I dry-sumped the engine because I (correctly) thought the oil I was throwing had to be the result of windage and crankcase pressurization. Dry-sumping killed a lot of birds with one stone. But the dry-sump meant a different header, and since I was building my own exhausts, a new exhaust as well. With the oil tank, the pump, and the new exhaust, it was enough that I stopped keeping tab. I thought about hiding receipts, but Jeanie wasn't asking, and I wasn't talking. Business was good that year, so... yeah.
I drove the car with the new engine to California in 2013 and threw freakish amounts of oil the entire time. On the way back, I stopped in Salt Lake, dropped the engine, and left the car with Art Thraen. 2 cylinders were split and the cam was flat. The Porsche-length H-rods I was supposed to have were just 5.4s. The Weisco pistons were just Cimas. The oiling system had no relief piston. There were no ceramic coatings in the heads (I had paid for them).
Art put in a new crank and pistons/iron cylinders and a weird cam ground on 105* LCs to try to tame the engine down. It didn't work-- the heads were too big and the whole thing was a huge mistake.
I hated it enough that I pulled the (now) 2276 and put the original 2110 back in the car (I had had it gone through because I didn't trust it) for the summer of 2014. I drove to the west coast again, and the engine was really, really sweet-- but it broke a couple of valve-springs on the way back home.
I wanted to twin-plug the 2276, so I pulled it and sent it back to Blackline racing to get rebuilt around a set of Revmaster 049 twin-plug heads. I backed off the headers to 1-5/8", which meant another custom A1 sidewinder (to clear the dry-sump), and another custom exhaust (built by me). I spent 6 months getting the ignition sorted out.
Right now, the car has the twin-plug, dry-sumped 2276 in it, and has since 2015. I'll likely pull it again once I'm done playing Monopoly with real houses and real money, as the CR is high and I think I've got some blow-by going again.
I also re-geared the transaxle three times since my original effort.
My point? If I'd have just let Henry put a nice CB 2110 and Rancho 4-speed with stock gearing and a 3.44, I'd probably have an extra car's worth of money to play with. Don't be like Stupid-Stan.
Just call Pat Downs first and be done with it. Really.
Part of my job as an engine builder is try to advise customers of what is the best choice for their driving style. I lose more sales than I get do to the fact that I’m honest and I won’t sell you something that I don’t believe will be reliable. There are WAY to many engine builders out there that want your money, not your happiness in the car of your dreams.
