Choice of shocks

What shocks is everyone using for a ball joint front end. The donor bug came with Gabriel redriders. The ride is way too rough. I removed just one of the shocks, leaving the other just as a test. This seems to be a lot softer a ride. Any recommendations on softer shocks?

Ben

Do a search in the forum, it's been well discussed. I believe most will agree that the el-cheapo shocks are the way to go. Used ones if you can find ones that fit.

Cycle the new ones a couple of times before installing.

Best of luck - M

Ben, Most Shocks should do well, but I was told to get a softer ride all you need to do is bring down your tire pressure to about 18-20 psi. I did that and rides pretty nice.

Gabriel

Aloha bruddah! I changed the shocks on the Speedster and Ghia with these, www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C13%2D9651

Works great. I originally thought that MORE expemsive gas shocks were needed but the ride was rough and in the steering wheel. So I changed for these and it's silky smooth. The problem is the car is so light in the front. What's nice about these as well is they need to be compressed a bit to fit which means they are already in it's travel while it sits. Works great.

Mike

El cheapo shocks and experiment with tire air pressure you'll be surprised that you can go to 18 lbs

Gabriel
I did just that,and my ride was improuved by far.Now I run 18psi and I am happy.Why haven't I thought of that before?Anyway thanks again.

Thanks for the replies, Its always a trade off. Function vs. aesthetics. I'm running low profile tires. I'll try lowering the tire pressure a little. I'm concerned on denting my rim if I hit a pot hole. I'll try the shocks from CIP1 too. I read the oil shocks work better than the gas for softening the ride. Is this true?

Yep

With front shocks I'd go with something very light (remember, two or three people can lift up the front end of these cars). The rears are much more important. I'd go with Bilsteins or Koni. I had KYBs....okay, but not great. Don't forget front and rear sway bars!

It is interesting about the sway bar comment. Tom McBurnie of Th?under Ranch discouraged me from adding sway bars from the build, saying they weren't really needed. I wonder if he meant for ordinary street driving. Also, he mentioned that he liked rear drum brakes instead of 4-wheel discs. He said the front-disc/rear drum setup seemed to dial in better than discs all around. Comments

Wow, the sway bar comment kind of baffles me since at least the front one is indispensable; so much so that the beetles and KG's have them from factory. I realize that the rear one (sway bar for IRS or camber compensator for swingaxles) is an add on that may or may not be needed depending on your driving style and habits.

MY VS came from the shop without a front sway bar and as soon as you hit a certain speed the front felt like it was lifting up and you'd be losing control. After adding a Bugpack heavy duty sway bar with urethane bushings everything's back to normal.

Barry,

Henry said the same thing about the sway bars on my IM remove both the front and rear. I'll let you know how it rides after they come off.

Karl

Thanks, guys. Karl: don't forget to let me (us) know how the car handles without the sway bars. When do you plan to make the conversion, and I will keep my eyes peeled for the results on this page.

On a street IRS speedster I would only use the stock OEM Beetle front sway bar and not an aftermarket heavy type .

No rear sway bar is necessary.

With a swing axle suspension,I would go with the stock front sway bar and a rear compensator

Well, the original question here was about shocks. There are many makers of shocks and the whole question of what to put on these cars is confusing, at the very least. The Speedster is a light-weight sports car (emphasis on "sports"); as such, the car is not meant to be a rolling highway sofa. But.....I owned a Morgan once, and had some concern about my kidneys getting shaken loose due to the almost non-existent shock action. But I expected this. The Morgan was a car to be driven fast in curves. That was only 40 years ago when I was 26. Now, I also expect the Speedster to ride hard, but there MUST be a compromise between a gut-shaking ride and one that is a bit more merciful to body organs and the gluteal muscle system.

It seems that everyone I have talked to has different shock setups, but that is to be expected since we all have different driving purposes and driving styles. So, finally, on to the question: Coil-overs vs. non-coil-overs? Front and/or rear? Which Brand: KYB, Koni, Bilstein? Has anyone arrived at that great shock nirvana for general driving (including freeway) that would keep me from getting monkey-butt? Some of the long-time members should have some good opinions....I am certain that they have gone the whole shock route.

And I forgot to mention tire pressures. I am reticent to go along with the quick fix of merely reducing tire pressures to compensate for shocks that are unforgiving. Tires are designed to operate at a certain pressure. You can get away with less air in a dirt bike tire on a fire road, but seems to me that if you run a lower pressure in car---even a car as light as the Speedster---you risk some interesting handling problems. Any comments on this, Alan?

Barry, just for your info. ; the recommended tire pressure on the VS manual, which is posted here (go to the library section to download it) is around 22 psi.; it's low but remember these cars are very light.

Tire Pressure....usually you would follow the CAR recommended pressure. That is almost impossible with a Speedster since there aren't any recommended. A tire manufacturer will post THE MAX pressure on the sidewall but this is not what you need to go by.

What I have done and seems to work fine and run well on Pirelli P3, is 26 in the front and 28 in the back.

The lower tire pressure (18lbs.) depends on the type of tires that you run. Tire composites and sidewall construction plays a big part in the handling and ride.
The recommended 22 psi in one tire will feel quite a bit different in different brands/style of a tire effecting the ride and handling. Only you can decide what is right for your type of driving.
Check www.tirerack.com and other tire maufactures web sites for detailed information.

Also want to mention that most speedters don't get the miles on them that our daily drivers due hence they very well may have tires on them that have been there for years, even though they appear to be in very good condition be assured that they are not and should be carefully checked for any signs of dry rot/cracking . Even a minimal crack indicates replacing all for tires

Barry wrote:
"So, finally, on to the question: Coil-overs vs. non-coil-overs? Front and/or rear? Which Brand: KYB, Koni, Bilstein? Has anyone arrived at that great shock nirvana for general driving (including freeway) that would keep me from getting monkey-butt? "

Let's make this all simple; You're driving a Volkswagen.....no more, no less. It doesn't much matter which manufacturer of shock you choose, just get one for a mid-60's Beetle, non-coil-over (why would you need a coil-over anyway? They would just be too stiff) and run them the same, front and rear. I'm running KYB's for a 1969 Beetle sedan and I think they're fine. Bilsteins? Koni's? They're fine, too, but stay away from "Performance" shocks, since the car is pretty light, compared to a beetle sedan, and won't need it. They'll be too stiff for normal driving.

How light are these cars compared to a "Real" Speedster? Well, my 1959 Speedster owners manual tells me that the "real" car weighed 1820 lbs. and the recommended tire pressure is 20 front, 24 rear. My CMC bodied car (and most of the others on this forum) weighs about 1650 lbs., so they shouldn't need as much tire pressure, right?? Like 10% less per end, so you could easily run 18 front and 22 rear. That's what I'm running, and it rides pretty nice - not a kidney shaker by any means, and it still handles really well.

Now, how to make it "HANDLE"......There are a lot of conflicting stories on here (and a lot of them from people who have never pulled a wrench) but, contrary to some opinions, you CAN make a VW pan handle like crazy - I've done it, and a lot of other racers and Dune Buggiers have done it, too. The first step is to run a 19mm sway bar in the front. That should be enough for most people and your ride won't suffer very much. If you want to corner flatter or have less oversteer (or make it feel like a "Framed" car), then add to the rear, either; a camber compensator for swing axles, or another 19mm sway bar for an IRS rear. (I know Alan doesn't think you need this, and I don't either, but if you want to autocross, this is the ticket.) The other thing that is crucial to making it handle is to run wider tires (and a wider track, but that means flared fenders). Notice I haven't mentioned different shocks here, because you won't need "performance" shocks - ever.

So, to summarize: Stock VW Beetle Sedan shocks all around from about any decent manufacturer, a 19mm sway bar (or even a tad smaller) on the front only, and tire pressure (for 185X16's) around 18 - 20 front, and 22 - 24 rear should give you good handling and a nice ride under any conditions but still feel "spirited".

Gordon
One of the "Speedstah Guys" from Rhode Island

Guys: You all answered my question perfectly, and I can't thank you enough.

Just to add; VS installs regular KYB's in their cars and they're very acceptable.

Barry,

Removed the sway bars this weekend along with some general maintenance and installed an external oil cooler. Also replaced the front shocks with stock VW shocks. The car had gas shocks all around I kept the gas shocks in the rear.

Big difference in ride quality the car is much smoother without the sway bars although it leans a little in the corners. It rides more like a roadster or touring car than the flat stiff ride of a track car which it definitely exhibited before the changes. Turn in on corner entry is not as crisp and the rear is a little on the loose side. The next step is to add wider wheels in the rear Henry said that he has a set of 7" rear wheels that should fit under the stock fenders. The 7" wheels should make the rear track better. Finally I will take the car in for an alignment and see how I like it.

Almost forgot with the remote oil cooler in the left rear fender the oil temps dropped about 10 degrees. Yesterday was very hot over 90 degrees and in stop and go city traffic temps were about 215 /220. On the open road the car was running about 210 / 215.

Karl

Karl:

You've fount the same points that I have with sway bars; they make it handle a lot better, but the price you pay is stiffness in the ride. I have 19mm's front and rear (both Sway-away's) with 6" rims front and 7" rear (all 16" rims) and running stock VW KYB shocks all around. I also have some Bilsteins, but have never installed them. With the sway bars on, you feel pavement divisions more acutely, especially in the rear.

It handled really well with just the front bar, and adding the rear makes it stick so well that I have lost courage and backed off the throttle on cloverleafs even though the rear end never seems as though it'll break loose either with power on or off - almost scary it sticks so well. TOTALLY lost a BMW 328i on a tight cloverleaf a while back - what a hoot!

I brought my tire pressure down to 20 front/24 rear, and that improved the ride a lot, while still being stiff enough for really spirited cornering (which is nice, now that I'm back in New england where we have windy roads!!!) Haven't seen any evidence of sidewall roll, either.

gn

John Steele told me some time ago to use gas charged shocks particularly in the rear. My KYB's came today. I'm curious to see how they work before I put on a rear bar.

BD

Karl,

Did you install a fan with the external oil cooler?

Gordon,

Your description of the handling is right on the money. With the sway bars I could take corners at speed throttle on or off and could even back off the throttle mid corner, which I could never do in my old 911, but the ride was just stiff. I

Gordon and Bill,

One more thing, I have dropped spindles with an adjustable front beam set on the highest setting, which still lowers the front ride height a bit. The adjustable beam may also contribute to the loose rear end. First I will try the 7

"There are a lot of conflicting stories on here (and a lot of them from people who have never pulled a wrench) but, contrary to some opinions, you CAN make a VW pan handle like crazy - I've done it . . . "

Maybe(?) but is you REALLY want a car that performs and handles, you HAVE to run tubes. Here in California, we have several guys who ha . . . Oooppsss ! ! ! Sorry I forgot . . . I'm from Massachusetts.

Yeah....in Massachusetts, we do things the same way as the folks from Oz, down under.

www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles/handling.htm

'nuf said.....