CIP long block sale

I read this email with a grain of salt .. 4 versons being offered in this year end sale..

So would you completely ignor this or take the opertunity to buy a spare.. I got pigs in a poke fefore So i am twice shy. id jus tbuy a stocker if i bought anything.

but the 1900 is a temtation

I like the 2187 cc on!

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-113-100-031-DCE

Doesn't seem to have the over $75 free shipping.

You can expect to have to pay shipping on it i think it to big for UPS But i would inquire.

What was the special price on the 1900?

$3,000

Check with Shubbie (Dale) $3500 (same price) is about what German Motors (Wayne Dittman in Stafford, VA) charged for Dale's ~2200 cc engine. It's all new parts. Wayne has long history of VW engine builds. I'm having him do my stock Dune Buggy engine. Recommend him if you are on east coast. Dale?

I wouldn't trust any engine that I didn't build myself, or Ed built for me. There is just too much junk out there, all of it new, most of brand name.

Be VERY careful of these deals.

Once bitten twice Shy.. I was already thinking along TC s lines. I've been thinking my next one will start on the 3 peace race case. or as some have dubbed it the Supercase. If they still offer the thing.

Any comments or warnings on chevy journels?

The way I understand it, Chevy (really Buick) journals are slightly smaller and your case will require less clearancing if you are building a stroker.

Also, there are probably more choices of bearings.

Your crank will be slightly more flexible with the smaller journals but I have read that this isn't a problem for street use.

I a sure they are "new" parts...since China makes LOTS of "new" parts! lol
I actually have a lot of Chinee parts in my 5K engine unfortunately..but that is todays reality. I have Chinese crank/rods/pistons/tin/who knows what else? But it runs great and I am happy with it so far.

Just for the record: I ain't building nothin' & I wouldn't trust any VW engine I built neither, no how. So there.

A Chevy, maybe. They're much more tolerant of micrometerless monkeys like me.

"Bridgett" is feeling neglected. I'm sure she'd like a few $ spent on her.

I have a good running engine, as long as I don't touch anything electrical. There's no budget for replacement, either. And 50 horse (if that's what she's got) or 40, is fine. I had her up to nearly 80 mph on the road back from Chambersburg last spring one day and I don't need the trouble it'll take to make her go faster than that with some modicum of safety.

However. This thought has occurred to me:

A Cip1 or other crated shortblock at 1915cc would cost $3,000+, and my application would then need intake and exhaust (and tricky intake--looks like no room for dual carbs and not really any for a Holley-Weber progressive either), which would bring the cost well over $4,000. And that would get me, maybe, 85 horse.

On the other hand, a 94 Forester with 120,000 miles and a shot transmission like they usually have would cost me maybe $1,000, maybe $1,500 tops. Kennedy stuff is like another $800, and figure another $1,000 beyond that in learning and playing. Total cost could easily be in the $3,500 neighborhood. Rig like that would drop into Bridget's bay, including the fuel injection, and yield maybe 120 of the original 135 horses. Good for another 60,000 miles if kept cool and oiled.

'Course, like I say, then I'd be in a world of trouble--brakes would be required; some kind of "handling" mechanism for the suspension. Maybe seat belts.... So it ain't gonna happen.

But I do think the cost profile of a Soob Job is mighty attractive for those of us not sentimentally attached to the air cooled ideal.

"Sentimentially attached to the aircooled idea"

That's a very interesting thought. I guess I'm happy to have an aircooled powerplant, especially given it's special provenance, but what I am really after is the SHAPE of the Porsche Speedster---a look that is timeless and gorgeous to me.

I am certain that the waves I get on the highway, or the folks pulling into a gas station to talk to me when they see my Speedster has anything at all to do with it beng aircooled. The waves and interest are because of that "look".

Soooo-trying to see what the balance is between the Speedster shape and the idea of an aircooled engine I came up with a ratio to show the relative importance to me and arrived at;

Speedster shape =95%
Aircooled engine= 5%

If I had a Type I ready for replacement or needing more power I'd be a very serious prospect for a Suby conversion like David Stroud is doing and like Marty's New IM and Hoss' SAS has.

Any purists out there that feel for them it's more like 50% Speedster shape and 50% aircooled?

It's $4200 with shipping for a 2275 to PA. Lot of $$ with no references or knowing where it came from. In fact $2600 for a 1600 seems way pricey for it's size.
Nahhh, I'd rather freshen up what I got for that money!(or go Soobie)
Ya think she'd notice if I lifted the motor from her Outback wagon? Heh heh....

~WB

I was wandring through a salvage yard in Worcester, MA, last Summer (Linder's). I do that - just wander around. I learn a lot and it's relaxing.

Anyway, when I came out and went through the office they had a complete Sooby WRX EJ20 Turbo motor sitting there, on a stand, complete with all accessories and ready to install.

21,000 miles with all accessories attached and video of the compression/leak down tests.

$2750 and they would load it in my truck.

Very little tweaking would give us 300-350hp AT THE WHEELS and reliability up the whaazoo. It would probably outlast the rest of the car.

For Bill's money, I would get an unknown 2275 giving me (maybe) 125hp at the wheels, irritable carbs and a lifetime of 75,000 miles or so. The prices charged in this hobby for turn-key, higher displacement engines is, IMO, obscene, when the alternative is so cheap.

Heck, you could sell an existing 2,110 Aircooled and just about break even on a really cool Sooby, ready to install.

hmmmmmmm..........Decisions, decisions.

I was wandring through a salvage yard in Worcester, MA, last Summer (Linder's). I do that - just wander around. I learn a lot and it's relaxing.

Anyway, when I came out and went through the office they had a complete Sooby WRX EJ20 Turbo motor sitting there, on a stand, complete with all accessories and ready to install.

31,000 miles with all accessories attached and video of the compression/leak down tests.

$2750 and they would load it in my truck.

Very little tweaking would give us 300-350hp AT THE WHEELS and reliability up the whaazoo. It would probably outlast the rest of the car.

For Bill's money, I would get an unknown 2275 giving me (maybe) 125hp at the wheels, irritable carbs and a lifetime of 75,000 miles or so. The prices charged in this hobby for turn-key, higher displacement engines is, IMO, obscene, when the alternative is so cheap.

Heck, you could sell an existing 2,110 Aircooled and just about break even on a really cool Sooby, ready to install.

hmmmmmmm..........Decisions, decisions.

BTW: grassroots Motorsports Magazine did a comparo of over 70 track-built cars at VIR last summer. #1 at 1:48:94 was a 2011 Riley MkXXII track car (looks like a Daytona Prototype 'cuz that's what it is)
#10 was a Subaru WRX STI at 2:01:31 (Fastest WRX)
#18 was a 2004 Porsche GT3 at 2:05:25 (Fastest Porsche)

I'm wondering how the Subaru's will do at the upcoming Rolex?

Gordon,

Do you know of anyone, shop, or you yourself who is familiar enough with the wiring/CPU/sensors/etc. to get a Subaru engine (like the one that you found) up and running well?

I've been poking around with a friend's Rotary and am considering it for the MGA, but a Subaru mounted to a T-5 (Ford trans) would seem like a dream date.

Lemme know, would you? I like to research ahead of time; crap, it took me three years just to learn to build stroker VW engine.

Thanks !

T

Tom Sheils sells a nice wiring harness if one didn't come with your Soob conversion engine. About $600 but you'll get it right the first time. http://subaruvanagon.com/conversion_services_Wiring.htm

TC:

I don't - That's Chris' job!

I'll ask him about NE sources.

gn

$600 isn't bad if it's completely plug and play, done right.

Gordon, if you could speak to Chris, I'd appreciate a local option, especially since I could trailer the car in and possibly have it looked at either during or after the installation.

Sometimes it's "Go Pro" or "Go Home."

TC lives in Soob Country. Who wants to bet pretty soon he has a hoard of 'em on the shop floor?

That wiring thing--looks good--but does it include the little notched sensor wheel and pickup you need to tell the ECU when the car is stopped at idle, so it'll actually keep running?

Not that I'm even thinking about this right now....

What a coincidence. My Soob engine came from just South of Boston. Can't remember the name of the place but it wasn't Kingston. Just curious, how much space do you have between the frame rails in your cars? My older IM had 29" and my EJ22 engine was about 28 1/2" with the bulk of the heads just below the rails. The EJ25's were too wide for me. How wide is the EJ20T if you know? Someone has that sensor wheel and pickup figured out...not sure who. I avoided all the wiring nightmare this time but I have a spare engine that might go that way.

I have to be honest with you,IMO these little cars have such short wheelbases,sub-par brakes,and literally no safety features,I would not want more than 200 hp in one of these cars.
I have owned 500+ HP turbo street cars,but these had much better brakes/suspension/structural integrity/handling,and were still a scary hell ride!
I went with a mild 130 hp build to closely mimic the power to weight ratio of a Carrera speedster,and even though it has more tq.,I am happy with my power and feel of the car,it feels "right",quick,but not necessarily fast.
I have a Beck,and there is scuttle shake...I can't imagine what it would be like with high HP,very "shaky & disconcerting"!!lol

Dave:

Did your engine come from Brockton, MA?

One of the few remaining auto salvage yards left in Massachusetts is in Brockton. The EPA has shut down scores of them all over the state.

Thomas:

I may be on to something re that scuttle shake. Should know in a few weeks as we're investigating it now on two different (both flared) speedsters (CMC/VS). I think I know the source and should have a relatively inexpensive fix.

Stay tuned.

What is scuttle shake? Dash panel area?

Brockton has about four left, four in Middleboro, two in Plympton, three in Carver. That's all within a five/ten or so mile radius.

More in Taunton, Bourne, Wareham, and such if you wanna go a bit farther. HUGE yards in South Boston and Everett. Many more as you work your way north.

We still have a lot to choose from. They just don't want Gordon to know about them, so when he calls, they say, "We're closed. EPA shut us down." I've been in a few front offices when he's called and heard 'em lie . . .

http://www.google.com/#q=massachusetts+junk+yards&hl=en&prmd=imvns&source=univ&tbm=plcs&tbo=u&ei=h1QQT-LOKeft0gHQs726Aw&sa=X&oi=local_group&ct=more-results&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CJgBELUDMAA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=c512dfb4c5df61aa&biw=1740&bih=993

Brockton, eh? The home of Marvelous Marvin Hagler. I just checked my records and though my engine was bought locally, it was in a Legacy recently from Connecticut. Can't remember what, but I did buy something from South of Boston. Check this lead from Peter Venuti for heaters. Nice stuff and good prices. http://www.vintageair.com/catalog.asp

Brockton is a very interesting city. Rich in history and achievements, both the city entity and it people. Rich from manufacturing, it had the best and newest school system in the state when I was in high school. Major athletes in all sports came out of there. Brockton was in our division (Quincy) so we always ended up against them both in Junior and Senior High. Mostly got creamed by 'em.

When the shoe industry in New England failed, the city fell hard and is still in free fall. A lot like Detroit only not yet as bad, but . . . if things continue, who knows.

Not surprising at all that their "Auto Mile" is a mile of junk yards rather than new car dealers.

"Just curious, how much space do you have between the frame rails in your cars?"

YIKES ! ! Good question. I measured my buddy's wife's car. That engine is hugely wide ! It'll never fit in the MGA.

Nothing to do with long blocks, but:

Wild Bill: Re: Scuttle Shake.

You're riding along, and this vibration comes on at a repeatable speed (usually 65 and over) and the car starts to shake, but it may not be constant - kind of rolls in and out like waves on a beach, getting stronger and then weaker and back again while the speed of the car can vary without affecting the frequency of the shake. This is after you've had the wheels carefully balanced.

The thought is that it may be caused by the huge horse shoe shaped rear body frame member that surrounds the engine. It's hanging in free space with nothing holding it up except for the front mounts, which are welded right behind the doors. BIG torque arm back there. It could be triggered by a lot of things, like pavement irregularities, and once it starts it comes and goes until the speed is reduced (or increased) beyond it's resonant frequency.

I suppose someone thought the combination of frame and body bonded together provided enough strength integrity, but I believe that whole assembly can oscillate at 5-6 cycles per second.

A possible cure would be to support that horse shoe frame about half way back and keep it from oscillating. That's what I'm working on, but I've only just started looking at it for possible solutions.

Stay tuned

I must be lucky as Blackie seems to be shake free.

That must be sort of common, Gordon. My '67 Mustang convertible seemed to do that same kind of thing, my MGB did it after hitting a bump/hole on the highway. Shook like a dog shedding water.

Didn't realize that it was a real measurable thing with causes and cures, I just chocked it up to what convertibles did.

Interested in what you come up with . . .

I have a Beck,so it is not a speed type shake,it is when you hit a bump,or irregular road surface,the car shakes,just like any convertible you drive,they almost ALL have it.
I just wouldn't want to be going at 120+mph or accelerating with a 300 HP speedster that wayed 1600 lbs and hit a big bump,I am scared the damn doors would pop open!!

Scuttle shake was an early MG TD problem. Supposedly cured by means of a metal hoop in 1951 and later cars.

http://www.mgcars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_brief_history.htm

Though it didn't really cure it.

Please see the thread on "Scuttle Shake" under Technical, General.

Thought I would start a new thread on this not having to do with longblocks.

gn

Reference Jack Crosby's "Shape=95%"

Fifty odd years ago there was a young officer at Cherry Point who parked his speedster next to the flight line control tower/snack bar. I'd sit there mesmerized, drinking coffee, and just staring at this seductive thing...and yearning.

For me Jack's ratio is right on!!

Hey Gordon,

Speaking of long blocks again . . . I dragged out all of the stuff to make a motor, now that the cold has hit, and I was wondering.

Can I get away with stock length VW con rods with a 74mm crank?

Also regarding the pistons/barrels, I have a set of new 94s and I heard from a few that the pistons will stick at the top of the barrels using the stock length (non-stroker) rods.

Finally, do you think that I can work with the stock length push rods? I would guess that if there IS gonna be a problem with stock rods and non-stroker pistons that I'm going to run into multiple shims which will affect deck height and rocker geometry necessitating longer push rods.

Kinda wondering, hoping you have an answer or two. Funny, I had no trouble at all with the bigger stroker, just measured and bought the stuff, but with a smaller crank everything is right on the edge.

Thanks,

TC

120 on Oahu, can you still do that without hitting a pack of cars?

Hell,there is so much traffic here now,you can't go over 80,that is why my little 130 hp Beck is perfect as a "sports car". It is useless here to have anything with any power unless you drive around at 1 am and then there are cops hidingout everywhere looking for the "racers" out there. If you get a ticket here for 30+ over the limit or 80 mph you will get a FELONY conviction which yo will lose your license and do community service/jail time. Big Brothers watching!