Clutch break in...

Hi all,

Did a search and didn't find the info I really need. I am getting a new clutch (or clutch components) installed in my car tomorrow and am worried as I am supposed to go for a road party with some of the east coast speedster guys in about 3 weeks to do Tail of the Dragon. I drive the car very little so I wont be able to get a lot of miles on it before going on the trip. Is there a common thought on how many miles should be put on a new clutch before you can giv'r?

James

QUOTE before you can giv'r?

'Bout 20 minutes sounds right.

So your sayin I should just buy 2 clutch assemblies and not do all the bolts up tight.

James

The clutch will be fine by the time you get to the dragon. It is possible it may need an adjustment when you get there, I am sure one of the guys can help you if you can't adjust it.

We'll fix'er up in a jiffy.

Woohoo!!! And only 3 1/2 weeks away!

James and Cory - We need to email or telecon to figure out when/where to meet up. I'll probably have Gordon and Kevin along with me - possibly more.

Jim:

Street clutches don't need any specific "break-in". Just install them, adjust them the first time and they're usually good for over 25,000 miles before they need attention.

If you have a stock, VW "Wing Nut" adjuster, it can, as Cory wrote, be fixed up in a jiffy, if it needs a touch-up when you get to Townshend, TN. We'll just run the car up on my trailer and use that as a lift to get up at the adjuster.

Easy-Peasy.......

gn

Sweet.. can't wait. Hope to get the car back tomorrow so we will see if it makes some noticable difference. The clutch isn't worn out (only 8K miles on it), it appears that it was installed improperly or came out of alignment as either the clutch plate of the pressure plate are dragging and the engagement length on the pedal is about 6 inches, meaning it starts to engage (when hot) as soon as it goes into gear and doesn't fully engage until the pedal is almost completely back. Still works fine and doesn't slip at all, so I am hoping its not a full on clutch replacement, but the mechanic said might as well since the parts are so cheap and we are already in there. Also, my engine with all its performance exhaust and fiberglass sealing panels, air con etc. is apparently much more difficult to remove than anticipated.

James

The clutch can't come out of alignment since it is self centered on the transmission shaft splines. Sounds like you have weak pressure plate spring(s). Always replace the pressure plate, disc and throw out bearing as a set since it's apart anyway.
Seriously consider replacing the transmission shaft seal and engine main seal being sure to have the correct end play. All related parts are renewed and you're on the road for many trouble free miles ~Alan

Yep, Alan's right (as if his guidance needs support) it can't "come out of alignment" but what I have seen. The throw out shaft/actuating arm gets damaged/worn allowing the pedal to pull the cable but you lose "throw" in the shaft so you don't get full pressure on the plate fingers.
You describe "long travel before disengagement and early engagement "
---Physically check your clutch throw out arm on the trans for proper position when released and push it (with your hand) to see how much free play there is before engagement.
If that's normal then It's probably not your clutch (it's not slipping) at all.
It could be;

A. stretched cable
B. slipped length adjustment pinch bolts (if they were used)
c. bent attach point at pedal (wouldn't cause inches of wasted travel)
d.your car shrunk


Good luck.

Well, I just got in touch with them and it goes like this :

1) Pressure plate was faulty and needs replacement.
2) Engine and trans were not aligned properly because when they were mated they pinched a 1/16th piece of sheet metal in between them inadvertently (I would hope so anyway). This caused the throwout bearing to not be able to engage properly.
3) Trans seal is seeping but main seal is perfect.
4) Clutch plate is very worn (lots and lots of dust everywhere) from all of this and needs replacement.
5) Assembly was done with WAY too much grease and it got into areas where it shouldn't have been.
6) Took 2.5 hours to get the engine out as all panels etc were siliconed and the wiring harness was a PITA to route properly, plus AC and exhaust had to be removed. If they had cut wiring harness they could have had the engine out in an hour, but they didn't want to do that. The hole to get the wires out were only capable of one wire going through at a time.

So... gonna get expensive. Thats the news as it was reported to me. My hope is that its gonna be ready for the road tomorrow, but who knows. Getting my checkbook out for a pep talk as we speak.

James

Hey James, you've heard boats described as holes in the water into which you pour money, right? Well think about it - these are toys (like most boats) made of fiberglass (like most boats) with big honkin' engines hanging off the back end (like most boats). I think we can add another similarity without stretching the analogy too much, don't you? ;-)

Yep, fully agreed, sucks big time, but it is what it is.

I am a little disappointed that I didn't get a "Clutch THIS!!" or a "Pinch THIS!!", even a simple "Grease THIS!!" would have done just fine.

James

Jimas:

Surprisingly, having that 1/16" thick piece of sheet metal in between the engine and transmission on just one point will cause quite a lot of mis-alignment. Think of it this way; the clutch plate (the fiber disk) is on a lever (the input shaft) about 8" long, and the radius of the disk is another 4" - 5". Put the two together and you get a LOT of movement away from where the disk is supposed to be spinning and that would cause beau-coup premature wear. It doesn't take much to screw things up (as you've found out).

Couple that with the force of the clutch plate trying to get the disk back into position and the transmission input shaft is going to be pushed to one side all of the time, and there goes your input shaft seal. I doubt that the engine main seal is damaged, but, what the hell, as Alan mentioned; you're alread in there and the crank mainseal is, what? $5 bucks? Might as well change that too and you're covered (it takes 10 minutes while nursing a coffee).

Looking forward to seeing you on the Dragon, and Clutch THIS!!

gn

Speaking of the Dragon, I heard from Lane this morning that he's going to do an oil change, so we may be able to find him by following the oil slick on the road.......oops! That one's been fixed, hasn't it? Lane! Slick THIS!!

You watched me reroute the hoses, so: ROUTE THIS!!!! Or even better: HOSE THIS!!!!

Nyuk nyuk nyuk

Well I have your Dragon's Tail right here!

I've asked Vince MANY times to use his powers for GOOD and NOT EVIL!! Too Late!!

James, seal THIS! Bwaaaahaaaahaaaaaa! Good luck with the repairs, should be better than new.

Lane, "You Hoser!!"

Yeah, Lane's a HOSER, EH?

Better to be the hoser than the hosee'

I'll drink to that! Of course I'll drink to anything.

Well, lots and lots of stuff was found to be wrong with the clutch, 6 of the pins on the pressure plate were floating around in there, the bolts were hitting the clutch before it was fully engaged (wrong bolts used apparently, but I didn't really understand the whole conversation). Anyway, at 85 an hour, parts and labour for at least 8 hours work is gonna be painful, enough so that the shop owner said we would talk about the bill when I got there on monday, wanted me to have a good weekend.... lol.

I guess I could be angry, but I wouldn't have a clue who to be angry at... and it wouldn't do me any good. At least I know it will be perfect for the tail run.

So Lane, based on your boat analolgy, I have finally decided on a pet name for my car... Black Hole. Thanks, I have been looking for something to call it since I got it home.

James

James, I'm thinkin you'll be happily surprised on Monday. It's a clutch replacement-
I don't think you'll end up paying more because the removed parts were so ugly.
Ennjoy your weekend!!!

Geeesh $85 per hr. ....does he carry a holster or just a couple of handy dandy gun racks ?
That's as bad as guy who wanted $1,500 to stain my 10 x 20 deck ..when I asked him how many man hours that equated to, he got a bit pissy "48 hrs for three man". I showed him the road home...

I guess a grand or so isn't bad for a clutch. My buddy just had to have his M5 clutch done...4K dollars. I am just surprised it was 2.5 hours to get the engine out of the car. I keep hearing how its a 1 hour job for most people without all the equipment these guys have.

I am having a good weekend though I wish I could have gotten the car back on friday, beautiful weather out there this weekend.

James

I don't think you're doing too bad. I imagine pulling an engine from one of Henry's cars could be a bit more involved than my CMC, what with all the goodies he installs etc.

I gotta tell you--I don't mind getting dirty for a lot less. Being the nice guy that I am I'd only charge $80/hr. All kidding aside--a person who know's his way around the car he's supposed to be knowledgable in should have been able to give you a
"this job costs XXX" besides anything else that might pop up.

Jim:

Have faith in your guy.

It's a 1 hour job to get the engine out of MY car because I built it and I know every bolt and nut. Same for a lot of other folks who have built their own cars or are thoroughly familiar with them.

If you're doing someone else's car (like a customer's) and are first-time unfamiliar with it (and who would have expected the engine heat shields to be silicon caulked in??) then, in order not to break something needlessly, you have to take your time as you go along. 2+ hours to get the engine out the first time is not far fetched at all, given what you've already told us.

Trust that the guy gave you good info on your old clutch assembly. No, you don't know who did the shoddy work on it in the first place, but all that is behind you and you'll have a clutch that should be A-1 from now on. Would you rather have it blow somewhere along someplace like the tail of the Dragon? Way out in the middle of nowhere?? I don't think so.

Good luck tomorrow, and we can talk all about it at the Tally Ho Inn!!

Gordon

While Gordon and others have raised some good points, i think you are being overcharged or at least paying for someone elses lack of experience. The first time I pulled my first Speedster engine it took me right at 1 hour. By the time I had pulled it 4 or 5 times I was down to about 15 minutes as I knew what screw was where, what size wrench to use, how to best get at it etc....there are only 4 bolts to remove from the transmission, a battery cable to disconnect first at the battery then on the starter, 2 wires to disconnect from the alternator and starter, accelerator cable to remove, and the gas line. On eiter of my Speedsters I did not have to remove the mufflers or exhaust systems from the engine. It all comes out in one piece at least in my case on 2 cars....I also had to disconnect remote oil coolers and filters, but that too only took a minute or 2. Of course the way both my Speedsters were built there was no need to remove any tin from either the surround or the engine...they both sealed with a rubber strip just like a stock VW...

Putting it back in took maybe 1/2 hour after the first time, just to make certain everything was properly positioned, routed correctly, and adjusted where necessary. Changing a clutch / pressure plate is 6 more bolts....

Your mileage may differ.......

I'll have to agree with Jim...a bit long on labor hours and expensive.
First time taking on a repair such as this can be like crossing into unknown territory but is very do-able.... for the future there is great support here. One does have to know what they are looking at to be able to evaluate current condition of parts.
Worse case scenario would involve extra time to R & I your speedster's sheet metal filler panels, any minor additional wiring and perhaps a couple of extra oil lines.
On the positive side of things, Gordon is right as it would be the pits to have a failure on a long trip.

Like I said---I think you'll be pleasently surprised this afternoon.

1. troubleshooting electrical issues
2. creative work
3. true customization or fabrication work

These can and should be billed by the hour. Basic mechanical work from knowledgeable people should be "by the task" with room on the estimate for discovered issues during the process.
If one mech spends 2X more time than the next guy(all else quality being the same), should he be compensated for this?--Nope.

Well, I just got in touch with them and they say that the clutch is working perfectly, and they changed the oil as I requested. They did do some stuff when putting the car back together like some rewiring etc to make it easier the next time. Not sure what that means, and he said it was just as much time as if they had tried to put the engine and wiring etc back in as it was. Custom car, custom problems I guess. They also did 30-40 miles of shakeout just to make sure the clutch was working as described... no charge...lol. They did say they REALLY like the car but they want it gone as they are sick of other customers asking about it.

Bill = $1184.00

I am just gonna pay it and forget it.

James

Wise man. Consider it an initiation fee. See you in a few weeks!

Well, got the car home and damned if I didn't have to learn how to drive that car all over again. I know it doesn't have anything to do with the cars clutch being replaced (or maybe it does, what do I know) but I got on the highway to come home and literally looked down and was doing 90 miles an hour. I would have thought that something was wrong with the speedometer, but at the rate that I was passing cars, I doubt it. Anyway, alls well that ends well. One thing I will never EVER do again is pay for a freakin oil change. It was over 90 bucks for Redline synthetic and a .5 hour shop rate to do it. Damn...

Lane, I will be at Wild Dunnes on Isle of Palms all next week. If your out and about maybe we can meet up downtown or something, just to say hi and perhaps grab a beer or nine. Got a great price on a 6 bedroom house in the resort.. free!!

James

Excellent!! I'm around all week, so we should definitely get together. Email laneanderson2003 AT yahoo.com, and let's figure out when/where/what.

I live in Dunes West - a sister community to Wild Dunes, but several miles inland and (at least for my neighborhood) much less expensive. When we were members of the Dunes West Golf Club we had a partner deal that let us play Wild Dunes cheaply. Gorgeous courses!

Gee.....I might even be enticed to make a run up the Isle of Palms to visit, too!

Let me know what develops.....just keep me off of SC 17 at night.....


gn