Clutch cable length

It was a pleasure to talk to you as well. I'm sure someone here can give you more advise than me. Per our discussion, I suspect that the "swedged" attachment at the end of your cable slipped a bit. I think I would take it back to Kirk and compare it to one of his new ones My reasoning is that you said it was a new one and it happened "all of a sudden while driving on PCH"   By the way...how bout becoming a member rather than a lurker ? Take my word for it, there's a lot of really great guys on here. They are Interesting, funny, very knowledgeable and don't ridicule anyone for their questions or comments, even if you get your murds wixed up.........Bruce

Joined and standing By.

 

Thanks

I had a similar problem, not on this car, but Bruce's response is what happened to mine. Easy fix!

Does anyone have a guesstimate as to the life span of the VS cable?   Is there a rule of thumb with regard to age/miles when a pre-emptive replacement would be indicated?  Mine is 11 years old but with only 12k miles.  Thanks.

Tom Williams posted:

Does anyone have a guesstimate as to the life span of the VS cable?   Is there a rule of thumb with regard to age/miles when a pre-emptive replacement would be indicated?  Mine is 11 years old but with only 12k miles.  Thanks.

It won't fail you until the least opportune time. Don't depend on it, and it should last forever. 

21,000 miles and 6 years for mine to "stretch."

 

Tom, I guess with 12K miles you've done more shining than driving    just kidding Ray

There's an outfit that sells a new peddle assembly shaft that allows you to attach the cable end with a nylon nut. That way you never have to be concerned about the hook failing. Also, the same company offers a longer shaft and a collar that moves the clutch peddle over about an inch.

I've installed these in two of my cars, including my Beck and it's definitely an improvement.

Ray,

Just too many toys and not enough time.  I have thinned the herd down to one now, so will be driving the speedster more than in the past.  BUT, I still get a kick out of polishing or even just sitting and looking at it.

WATCHSPEAK: All I can offer is what happened to me on a brand new build.  This depends on what sort of chassis you have.  If strictly pan-based, then this likely would not be an issue. My car is a hybrid in that it has only the aft section of the pan from donor, and the front end is a purpose-built space frame.  Why is this important?  Well, turns out in my case all that "purpose" built stuff can get a little off here or there, espy the placement of the pedal cluster.  And so I was supplied with a "standard" shortened clutch cable, and the pedals were installed a little too far fwd, so the cable was a little too short. As installed and adjusted all the way out, the clutch was already starting to dis-engage, so the friction point was way too high.  I had to measure the shortfall, and go get a new cable built as described: cut the OEM bug cable to right length and have a sail shop swedge the threaded end in properly.  So what, you ask??  My only advice here is not to take the lengths given above for the std short cable as gospel, but rather measure what it is that you need.  With the cable installed correctly, go under and decide how much too long or too short it might be, remove the cable, do the math, and go get/make one the right length.  The threaded rod is long enough (or should be) to allow for a fair amount of fine tuning to get the friction point right where you want it, which, in my way of thinking, should be close to (but of course not on) the floor. Such a setting will result in the minimum flexing of the clutch springs/diaphragm when operated.  $0.02 worth, your mileage may vary . . .

If you install a standard-length Bug cable you can put a loop in it and clamp that with one (or two) of these, then adjust as usual. The loop just sort of sits on top of the trans; doesn't hurt or interfere with anything. 

This saves the cost of swaging, and-or re-swaging if the measurement's off. It saves you the trouble of trying to measure. 

And it gives you perfect adjustability as needed. 

To add to what Edsnova suggested, here is a nifty way to adjust a longer clutch cable to your desider/needed custom length--- a clutch cable shortening kit.  No specialty tools required ;-) 

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDe...ode=ACC%2DC10%2D2568

Ive used the loop in the cable trick. Works well and you never hqve to have just the exact right size custom cut cable.

I've got the cable shortening kit shown above, but I also like Ed's idea.

 

El Frazoo posted:

WATCHSPEAK: All I can offer is what happened to me on a brand new build.  This depends on what sort of chassis you have.  If strictly pan-based, then this likely would not be an issue. My car is a hybrid in that it has only the aft section of the pan from donor, and the front end is a purpose-built space frame.  Why is this important?  Well, turns out in my case all that "purpose" built stuff can get a little off here or there, espy the placement of the pedal cluster.  And so I was supplied with a "standard" shortened clutch cable, and the pedals were installed a little too far fwd, so the cable was a little too short. As installed and adjusted all the way out, the clutch was already starting to dis-engage, so the friction point was way too high.  I had to measure the shortfall, and go get a new cable built as described: cut the OEM bug cable to right length and have a sail shop swedge the threaded end in properly.  So what, you ask??  My only advice here is not to take the lengths given above for the std short cable as gospel, but rather measure what it is that you need.  With the cable installed correctly, go under and decide how much too long or too short it might be, remove the cable, do the math, and go get/make one the right length.  The threaded rod is long enough (or should be) to allow for a fair amount of fine tuning to get the friction point right where you want it, which, in my way of thinking, should be close to (but of course not on) the floor. Such a setting will result in the minimum flexing of the clutch springs/diaphragm when operated.  $0.02 worth, your mileage may vary . . .

Makes a lot of sense.  The key seems to be what is the baseline i.e. when the clutch arm is vertical or should we have to consider 1/2 to 1 inch of travel forward of the arm when considering the length for allowing adjustment.  I have a heavy duty clutch Kennedy stage 1 1700lb and dankin disc is that a consideration in the equation.

I am still a little lost as to when the clutch should engage.  I am clear on the 1/2 - 1 inch free play but i need to also understand and be sure that when full depressed I actually have  the clutch fully disengaged

Sorry for the novice questions.

thx

Bill

Lfepardo posted:

To add to what Edsnova suggested, here is a nifty way to adjust a longer clutch cable to your desider/needed custom length--- a clutch cable shortening kit.  No specialty tools required ;-) 

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDe...ode=ACC%2DC10%2D2568

I purchased one of those kits along with an oem cable just have not opened the instructions to see how it works.

 

thx

TRP posted:

Ive used the loop in the cable trick. Works well and you never hqve to have just the exact right size custom cut cable.

That was what I had before going for the clean pre cut.  I guess old school could do the trick.  But this assumes you put the loops in after you place the cable in the final position?

thx

aircooled posted:

It was a pleasure to talk to you as well. I'm sure someone here can give you more advise than me. Per our discussion, I suspect that the "swedged" attachment at the end of your cable slipped a bit. I think I would take it back to Kirk and compare it to one of his new ones My reasoning is that you said it was a new one and it happened "all of a sudden while driving on PCH"   By the way...how bout becoming a member rather than a lurker ? Take my word for it, there's a lot of really great guys on here. They are Interesting, funny, very knowledgeable and don't ridicule anyone for their questions or comments, even if you get your murds wixed up.........Bruce

I don't seem to be having any luck confirming what the correct length should be.  Lots of good ideas but not length.

Any idea who I could PM. 

Thanks

Bill

Buy one from Kirk. If he sold you a bad one he will make it good. 

 

Clutch adjusting: At idle speed, car sitting, brake on, you should be able to tell when the disk just starts to engage when you lift the pedal from full down.  VW geometry is such that when you set that point low to the floor, your pedal will have a bit of free play at the upper end.  Just the way it is.  To be sure you have disengagement when fully depressed, again engine running, car still, go to fully depressed pedal, and try to engage reverse.  If the plate is dragging, you will hear it -- go shorten the cable a tad, and try again.  If you use fwd gears, the synchros will try to help you, and not as easy to tell.  Of course, you use a light touch here and do not actually engage the gear if it starts to grind a little.

majorkahuna posted:

Buy one from Kirk. If he sold you a bad one he will make it good. 

 

Sounds like a plan I will swing and grab another one.

El Frazoo posted:

Clutch adjusting: At idle speed, car sitting, brake on, you should be able to tell when the disk just starts to engage when you lift the pedal from full down.  VW geometry is such that when you set that point low to the floor, your pedal will have a bit of free play at the upper end.  Just the way it is.  To be sure you have disengagement when fully depressed, again engine running, car still, go to fully depressed pedal, and try to engage reverse.  If the plate is dragging, you will hear it -- go shorten the cable a tad, and try again.  If you use fwd gears, the synchros will try to help you, and not as easy to tell.  Of course, you use a light touch here and do not actually engage the gear if it starts to grind a little.

Thanks for the details.  it's vw 101 everyday for me. A lot to learn.

The guys at Powerhaus in Torrence did the work on the car I will crab a new cable and work it out with them.

Thanks

Bill

The econo route is to buy a regular length Beetle cable for $6.00 , cut it 3.5" from the threaded end where the wing nut is affixed, pass that through the tunnel tube and Bowden tube overlapping the two sections securing it with two 1/8" cable U bungs and securely tighten the nuts........done.

Hi Bill.......So I read as well ! I think I would go get another cable from Kirk, measure it compared to your stretched one to see if the new one is a little shorter. If so, install it and see what happens. If it's still a problem, I would do the stock cable and make the loop in it and double clamp it with those cable clamps some one suggested. I have done this before and had no problems with it and so have some of the others on here.  I know it doesn't look very clean and professional (more like Mickey Mouse) but it works....Bruce


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aircooled posted:It was a pleasure to talk to you as well. I'm sure someone here can give you more advise than me. Per our discussion, I suspect that the "swedged" attachment at the end of your cable slipped a bit. I think I would take it back to Kirk and compare it to one of his new ones My reasoning is that you said it was a new one and it happened "all of a sudden while driving on PCH"   By the way...how bout becoming a member rather than a lurker ? Take my word for it, there's a lot of really great guys on here. They are Interesting, funny, very knowledgeable and don't ridicule anyone for their questions or comments, even if you get your murds wixed up.........Bruce
I don't seem to be having any luck confirming what the correct length should be.  Lots of good ideas but not length.Any idea who I could PM. ThanksBill   View This Reply SpeedsterOwners.com - 356 Speedsters, 550 Spyders, Replicas and more https://www.speedsterowners.com To adjust your email notifications for this site, please update your notification settings. To suspend ALL email notifications from this site, click here. |

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majorkahuna posted:

Buy one from Kirk. If he sold you a bad one he will make it good. 

 

I picked up a new cable from Kirk today.  I mentions that I thought the cable may have stretched i.e. the swaged end may have sliped 1/4 inch.  He said it has happend to him.  I any case I was not in a position to insist until I remove the cable and compare with his new one.  His new one is apparently 77 inches according to Control Cables the key that make shortened cables.  I Control cable two new oem german cables and having them made to 77.5.  Will keep you posted.

 

Thx

I now have a couple of cables in hand one from vs at 77 inches and two German made cut to 77.5 inches. While it was mention by kirk at vs that he has not had any stretching or lengthening i did notice a slight variation in the cable density. While the vs is thicker it appears less dense. Maybe not worth mentioning but. 

 

 

Why 1/2 in longer?

Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:

Why 1/2 in longer?

Because nobody could actually confirm 77 or 77.5 or 77.75 all three seem to be numbers I found in the forum to be "Correct".  My cable was a 77 (measured the new cable I just bought from Kirk) I assume as it came from VS even though he was quoted in the forum as 77.25.  My cable after the strech was tighted about 1/4.  But now my clutch seems to engage with an inch off the floor.

So at the end of the day I just took a poke in the dark.  I now know how to recreat a cable starting with original German cable and having Control Cables shorten it.  My sail rigger seemed too busy and does not stock the metric pieces.  I will  have the cable swapped out and see which cable ultimately will be the one.

I wish I had a definite answer from the forum as to yes 77 is the size so I will live and learn. But I know this is not an exact science and in my guess a on off build so I am greatful for all the help I get here.

Bill

Cable length can vary due to the bend of a Bowden tube, that's why there is a long threaded end :~)

Yep.

I guess why I asked is that I'd rather a cable be "just long enough" than being in the center of the available adjustment range with a new cable and a new clutch. Things will wear (cable will stretch, clutch will wear), and running out of adjustment seems like something that's been a problem.

I played with my Bowden tube length several years ago. It's a good way to end up with about 4 extra tubes, none of which seem to work any differently than any other.

I hope this length is what you want, Bill-- and I'm sorry we didn't have better answers for you.

I will keep you all posted and hopefully have some results to share.

late as usual, but the German one looks to me, to be the best quality with a tight weave, that would be my first choice...

Even later than Will, but I've been off the grid for a week (and didn't THAT feel good!!!!)

77" is the correct length.  Depending on the length of the threaded stud on the transaxle end, your cable may vary.  all that will happen with a longer cable is that you'll run the big wing nut adjuster farther down the threaded stud - no big deal, unless you run out of threads on the bottom end, someday.

Here's what I have in my "Everything you ever wanted to know about Gordon's car" book, in the section on the clutch cable.  I actually measured my spare to get the measurement for the book:

       2.6.1.1 Clutch Cable

The clutch cable is a shortened version of a standard VW sedan clutch cable. Pre-Shortened cables can be had from Vintage Speedsters or simply buying a standard VW clutch cable (German is always best) and having a sailboat rigging shop shorten it and then swedge on a new, metric end of the right size and thread pitch. All of my clutch cables (there is a spare in the spares kit under the hood) were made at Bay Rigging in Fall River, MA. The end-to-end dimension from the top of the pedal loop to the end of the throw-out stud is 77 inches.

gn

I have a JPS Speedster. I had 4 original length VW clutch cables shortened to 76 3/4" by a local SF Bay Area boat rigger/cable company some time ago. At 76 3/4" you have some stretch room. Still have a couple spares. They did not add any new parts, but used the original ends that came with the cables. I believe after shortening the cable at the pedal end they removed the unneeded length of cable from the eye fitting, cleaned up the hole and reswedged the cable back together. Using other methods such as looping and clamping or one of those cable shortening kits will result in early cable failure, in many cases very early failure, especially if you are running a performance 1,700 lb. Kennedy Stage 1 clutch setup. Fix it right the first time.

 

Gordon Nichols posted:

Even later than Will, but I've been off the grid for a week (and didn't THAT feel good!!!!)

77" is the correct length.  Depending on the length of the threaded stud on the transaxle end, your cable may vary.  all that will happen with a longer cable is that you'll run the big wing nut adjuster farther down the threaded stud - no big deal, unless you run out of threads on the bottom end, someday.

Here's what I have in my "Everything you ever wanted to know about Gordon's car" book, in the section on the clutch cable.  I actually measured my spare to get the measurement for the book:

       2.6.1.1 Clutch Cable

The clutch cable is a shortened version of a standard VW sedan clutch cable. Pre-Shortened cables can be had from Vintage Speedsters or simply buying a standard VW clutch cable (German is always best) and having a sailboat rigging shop shorten it and then swedge on a new, metric end of the right size and thread pitch. All of my clutch cables (there is a spare in the spares kit under the hood) were made at Bay Rigging in Fall River, MA. The end-to-end dimension from the top of the pedal loop to the end of the throw-out stud is 77 inches.

gn

Thank you for confirming the length.  I used the last one I just bought from VS as the two German cables I mistakenly cut to 77.5.  I will take them back to control cables and shorten them to keep some spares on hand.

 

Thanks again for the feedback.

jschlotz posted:

I have a JPS Speedster. I had 4 original length VW clutch cables shortened to 76 3/4" by a local SF Bay Area boat rigger/cable company some time ago. At 76 3/4" you have some stretch room. Still have a couple spares. They did not add any new parts, but used the original ends that came with the cables. I believe after shortening the cable at the pedal end they removed the unneeded length of cable from the eye fitting, cleaned up the hole and reswedged the cable back together. Using other methods such as looping and clamping or one of those cable shortening kits will result in early cable failure, in many cases very early failure, especially if you are running a performance 1,700 lb. Kennedy Stage 1 clutch setup. Fix it right the first time.

 

Control cable replaced the end bolt part son I don't have the original German ends but my last one stripped so the the threads seem like a failure point.  I will talk to the guys at control cables and see if they have any stronger material.  When I shorten my two cables I will match one to 76 3/4 and keep it handy.

Thanks for the feedback.

Bill