Cobras do it! why not Speedsters?

There are many Cobra replicas that have a better chassis than the original, they handle and ride better and it seems acceptable with us all,they are a better sports car than the original so why do Speedster makers insist on using a cut and shut beetle chassis reinforced with a ladder frame, they try to convince all of us that it is close to the original, when most of us know that is bollocks. The original Speedster may have had suspension similar to a beetle but the the body and chassis were of a more modern unitary construction. Why do we insist on Speedsters that are built on caveman technology. Even the Beck Speedster has a poor ladder frame,on their webside they do a jack test, but the real test is to drive one wheel of a Speedster up a ramp and see if the door opens, not just jacking a car in the middle of the door!
Lots of you try to make the Speedster shape more modern with
wide wheel arches and no chrome and handle better with IRS rear suspension, so why not forget the beetle underpinnings and come up with something that can go round a corner.
I do not mean to offend you all, there are some wonderfull looking Speedsters on this site, but what I do want to know is:- why are Speedster still stuck in the past!
Come and argue, or are you too chicken:-)

Mike, Specialty Autoworks does exactly what you are saying...but my question to you is why so confrontational???

Mick, there are several chassis options, not just beetles. All you have to do is put your money where your mouth is.

Eddie

Mike, I like 50 year old technology! Buckminster Fuller hadn't gotten his triangle stuff together or a speedster might have a frame like a Birdcage Maserati, now there is some real 50 year old technology.

Volkswagen chasis with a camber compensator, sway bars up front tied down properly corners nice and flat. It is a classic design and with the ladder frame the car feels over built, stiff, even when I break away in a tight curve. The really huge problem I have is the tail pipes dragging.

Mike you sound like a candidate for a Miata - they have air bags, air conditioning, roll up windows and heaters that do a decent job. A glove box! I could go on and on. My side curtains are stored away same place as the top, don't need them. Just raw seat to the road nose in the air driving experience.

Do you have a speedster?

See my post under site enhancements...I rest my case.

Yeah....and Intermeccanicas are tubular steel....so what is the point? You surely have not been accustomed to some of the builders. Intermeccanica is a hand built car. So there are Speedsters that ride like Speedsters on Beetle frames and there are Speedsters that ride like a brand new sports car. Pony up some money for the latter. I guess I don't understand what you are saying since they so indeed make them on rigid chassis... Brand new frames, better than the originals.

Ditto what Jim and the 2 Mikes said.

Mick please do a little homework on the different options out there in the Speedster world. I'm sure once you do, many of the folks here will be glad to answer and questions you may have.

Jerome

PS: If you've come here to "flame bait" go somewhere else. If you've come here to sincerely discuss Speedsters try a little more tact next time.

Let me add that many of the Speciality Insurers will not touch certain Cobras because that so called custom frame from some Grifter Builder wraps like tin on a fence post with a 427 as the RIP hood ornament. There are tombstones around the country that testify to that reality. In my 4 years with this group, I have not heard of a single major injury in a Speedster or Spyder.. knock on wood. It's always possible, but it doesn't seem to be effecting our ability to get insured.

I have ridden in a couple of Cobra Replicars that handled little better than my truck, and that's a fact, Jack! Yes, there are some that ride on rails, and you better have some bucks to buy one. I love Cobras, so my remarks are just based on what I read, hear, and see in the Cobra market.

The original Speedster started on a pan... many in this community live and breathe VWs and/or Porsches... and so the mating is a natural one. Most of the real 356s out there handle worse that even the most basic Speedster replica.... and many of the replicas, including Pan based cars, will track as tight as you dare pucker your ass. But at the heart of this hobby, is a love for 50 year old tech with just enough updates to make it a driver. Tubs... gotta love them, or go buy a Miata.

We have our options, we have framed cars, we even have a few 911 based cars... but as a group we love every single one of them, from the oldest Fiber Fab, to the lastest IM, French Built car, and the new water cooled Speeders. We have one or two here that are working on projects that exceed anything we've seen yet. Pick a flavor!

This is one big family.. pick on one, and....

If you are interested in these Replicas, do some homework, decide what you want to afford and then go for it. You will find a great group of people that will support your efforts, help you find parts, and even send a free part when the need arises. If you are into that, you came to the right site.

BTW, there are Speedster Replicas that WILL exceed your driving skills or reaction time, unless you are under 30 and race for a living. I know of a few like that, including a black Spyder that will roll down I-5 next month.

Jim Bob

A Cobra rides and handles better than a Speedster?
Spoken like someone who has little experience driving either one.

Sorry Jim, the original Speedster is not considered a pan-chassis car.

wow...
In the repli-Cobra circles there seems to be a pecking order of which ones are 'better', 'bigger', 'butcher' and based on the minutia which separates them in the seemingly endless show car categories, a lot of wounded egos need strokes and trophies for paint shades of blue, and most dollars spent under the hood, ad nauseum...and as stated elsewhere in this thread, they crash and crumple all the same and with alarming frequency...so much so that insurance for said vehicles is becoming an endangered industry.

That being said, this reproduction car business is just that, a business. There are some simple, logical and profitable adaptations made by some builders that do indeed mimic the refinement and spirit of early sports cars.

The business of building a replica sports car extends to those who wish to actually build the car themselves, and for those, the basic speedster 'kit' is made plentiful with a variety of upgrades including initial platform choice.

Truth be told, there is little room left on the roadways for truly spirited driving. If the speedster replica community chose to petition SCCA for a class and category to compete in, then perhaps there would be a ground swell off additional refinements. I understand there are some race categories for repli-Cobras and that is great. Most folks that drive speedsters, drive them in a more varied array of driving circumstances. Most guys (and gals) that drive their speedsters apoint their cars to perform in these capacities... the thump and rumble of a strong repli-Cobra, while manly and primal and a true threat at the stop-light road wars isn't much more than that.

Repli-Cobras are a tribute to a once great production car as are speedsters. Neither are very sophisticated and that is their charm.
A driver of either has to know their car's limitations. Remember when Pirrelli brought out the P-7 tires? They were the be-all end-all traction tires of their day and so long as you 'heard them' while you were cutting corners you were OK, but when the tire squall fell silent, you were usually in too deep and the ride was soon to be over!

You want a be-all, end-all sports car, you're on the wrong road here dude. You want sumpthin' fun, you came to the right place.

Not looking forward to the littany of inane repli-Cobra classes at Knotts, yawn,
P.

Well this question caused a reaction, it was not a flame or a jibe at individuals,the last line 'or are you too chicken' is from my favourite movie 'Doc Hollywood', it was a joke, obviously British humour is different from American. I did say in my post that there are some wonderful cars out there. I have looked at the custom framed Speedsters out there and they seem ok but still not that ridgid in torsion, and yes I do have a Speedster, building it with a custom monococque chassis and pushrod rising rate suspension.
No I do not want a Miata or MX 5 as it's called across the pond, I just want a Speedster that can perform as well as a modern sports car around the track!

Be Vewy quite....I'M huntn for Chickenn!!!!!!
Mick , there is nothing to argue. The Speedster is a kit car. It made with the sense of affordablity. Price a Cobra than look at the price of a Speedster. Now think Porsche- Unibody construction- No Frame. Why does it handle so well? Could it be the suspension? Shocks? Magic? With a some effort and $$$ ,you could make the Speedster handle well. If you have $15K , I'll make you a custom chassis with all the high $$ equipment. Enough Said .. I'm going back to the garage to finish my car.

And as soon as my Mig welder is fixed I will go to my garage and finish my chassis and finally get some photos on this site!

Why does the Cobra have a much better frame design?

The same reason a decent Cobra replica costs twice (or more )than a decent Speedster replica costs.

As with insurance, you pay to play.

Tony Miller

Dry British humor:

"I hear you had to bury your wife last week"

"Had to, she died"

Joe Saltis,
I have your details in my favorites, you have done some good chassis mods, making the central tunnel taller will have made the structure so much more ridgid, also I have made some card models and just tying in the tunnel to the crossmember that the steering wheel attaches to as you have done almost doubles the effort needed to twist the model.
I have a CAD programme called Solid Works, when I have read the 700 page manual I might be able to do something a little more hi tech than a card model, although your chassis man Herb Adams swears by them!
Just wondering what can you do with the front trailing arms to stop the flexing under hard cornering?

The dead wife joke, still trying to work out if it's funny or not?

I have read over my original post, it does sound a little aggresive,
sorry if I have offended, it was not intended, I just wanted to start a good discussion!

I'm still confused by the whole Cobra handling issue. Have any of you ever DRIVEN a Cobra (real or replica)? Sure, point it straight, hit the gas and it's a cool car, but the minute you grab the steering wheel and start to manuever it...well, let's just say it loses its cool real fast.
And don't even get me started about trying to work the pedals with adult sized feet. Sorry, but Cobras to Speedsters is like apples to oranges.

In the UK there are a few Cobra replicas that have advanced chassis and suspension, the DAX has camber compensation front and De deon rear, the Gardener Douglas has a Lotus style backbone with a semi monocoque body, I believe in the USA Herb Adams makes a lightwieght aluminiun back bone chassis for the Cobra.
What I am trying to say is that Cobras have moved on fron the original twin tube ladder chassis but most Speedsters have a chassis that is less ridgid that the original Speedster unitary construction but time has moved on 50 years.

Again, forgive me but what is the point? You thinking sbout going racin'? I don't think we need to have unibody, stiff chassis' to go for a spin. Listen a chassis any kind, with the right tires, suspension and driver will beat the crap of any unitiated driver. You are making your own frame? God be with you! That is the most dangerous way to go.

Mike,

There are a lot of guys who can tell you all about what they "almost" did, but a whole lot less who actually finish something.

I may be wrong, and you might be the guy to go back to the drawing board and completely reinvent the entire speedster replica concept, but I have my doubts that the car you envision will ever get built. I've been here since 2000, and can't tell you how many "better ideas" have been floated out publicly with the words- "it couldn

STAN!!! Good to see you posting. I was just wondering the other day if you have been busy lately or just waiting for something different to talk about?

Mick, if you want something close to a Cobra chassis buy an IM. I have to say they did do their homework. You need to really take a hard look at a Cobra frame. The major detail in design is in the suspension areas. The rest of the frame is similar to the Speedster kit. The Cobra has a few more horizontal structural components. The way to build a chassis for a Speedster is remove the kit steel structure from the glass body. One you have done that the chassis design is a piece of cake. Make sure you make a jig to keep it square. If someone wanted to stiffen up a pan Speedster all you would have to do is weld U-channel 90 dgrees of the center structure. When the welding is completed you basically has a structural rectangular tube. What's up with the welder? Have you gone beyond the ol'duty cycle?

My Speester chassis is well under way Stan, a couple of diodes have blown and I am waiting for the parts from Italy. So no need to mock me with 'i can start untill my welder is fixed' This is a personal dig, I have not said anything againt an individulal. I have already built a Lotus 7 chassis, now that was a lot of tubing, the Speedster chassis is a lot more simple, all the main tubes are in place, sheet steel tunnel is in place, just ready for the stressed sheet steel flool, bulkheads ect.
As for the cost, I am not using carbon fibre, I am using sheet steel at

33 to

Mick,

You're right, and I'm sorry. When somebody starts a comment with the words "I'm not trying to be smart", they usually are doing just that. I wish you the best. This is a big tent, and everybody is welcome- I'm sorry I didn't extend that to you.

The basic speedster kit has been around for thirty years, and its based on a car that hasn't been sold in the US for about that long. The VW aftermarket is still strong in pockets of the country, but the basic technology of the vehicle is 50+ years old. There is definately room for improvement, if you want something more modern (with the classic shape)- but everyone's balance between old vs new technology has lines they don't want to cross.

I'm a retro-grouch, so most of what you are describing sounds neat for a modern car, but doesn't faithfully adhere to the essence of the speedster (circa mid 20th century) to me (as if anyone cares what I think). Some guys draw the line at the engine- air-cooled only. Some draw it at the appearance (no flares, etc.). Some just like the shape, and want the best possible driving experience in that shape- I suspect you fall into that group.

We all make comprimises for the sake of relaibility, safety, and performance. VERY few guys are out there in a replica with 4 drum brakes, and a 356 mill under the deck-lid. Its all a matter of degrees. The actual car Joe S is building isn't what I drool over, but the care and workmanship he is putting into it is pretty much the gold standard for anything I've seen so far, and IS everything I think is cool.

When Joe started posting, I thought he was just another 18 year old kid with $2K and a welder, out to "show us all how it is done". I've seen a lot of those guys over the years ("I was just out measuring, and the speedster has pretty much the same dimensions as my mom's Miata. Wouldn't it be cool to build a car on that frame, only using a Ferarri engine and transaxle?", etc). I shouldn't automatically conclude that every new guy who posts here lacks the skills and resources to execute the ideas he's talking about.

You're ideas have never been done by any home builder I know, for any car. The streetrod guys build on (orignial or repop) frames, the stock car, and NHRA guys build on tube-steel frames- and all of the folks I know of on this site use the pan, or a builder's proprietary frame set-up. You are going where nobody I know has really been. That's why I was sceptical. Good luck.

I'm sorry for the slight. Keep us posted.

Thanks.
In the UK there is a huge following for the book 'build your own sports car' and many thousands of people including myself have built a Lotus 7 style chassis. Lots of people have gone on to build specials.
There is also a big following of something called formula 750, which is mainly for self built racing cars using either a tuned old reliant engine or an unmodified modern Fiat engine. I think the build your own sports car book has given many people the confidence and knowledge to undertake specials.
We also have somthing call Singe Vehicle Approval, which is a kind of super test to see if a car is safe, this involves checking the basic construction, brakes, brake balance, lighting, emissions, seatbelts, how padestrian friendly it is and many more things. All kit cars and specials have to undergo this if they do not use the original unmodified chassis from the donor car.
Anyway, as people have said to me put you money where your mouth is, I am doing that and should have some photos worth posting a couple of weeks after I get my welder sorted.
I actually prefer the classic shape, with the engine out back, I am using an Alfa Romeo flat 4 watercooled engine.

Mick,
Please post photos.
Thanks

Nice car Terry, do you mind measuring the distance from the tyres to the inside of the bodywork and tell me what you ground clearance is?
I have a set of wide alloys(about 7in) and would like to get them as close to the bodywork without catching and would like to have about 6 inches of ground clearance from the bottom of the bodywork.
Hope you can help?

Mick,
If you can wait until Friday I'll be happy to get the measurements for you.

Thanks Terry, that's great.
I was looking through your pics again and on one you say there is a clearance problem, do you mind explaining that too?
Once again cool car, that colour is nice, a modern colour on a classic shaped Speedster is a nice touch.

Thanks for the compliment, Mick.
The clearance issue had to do with my choice of wheels and having rear discs with IRS.
The Riviera wheels have less offset than the stock rim, so even with a rare 4 1/2" riviera, I could only run a 165/15 tire. That gave me approximately 3/8" clearance on the fender.
I am now running 4 1/2" chrome rims with knock-off spinners, and 185-65/15 tires. I now have 3/4" clearance on both sides.
I am still pondering the option of shortening the axles to gain better clearance for a wider wheel/tire combination.
This seems to be the setback for having rear discs on an IRS pan.

What about the front wheels Terry, do the rub when you turn?

No, PLENTY of room at the front end.

More importantly,..wasn't the line "'or are you too chicken'" from the "Back to the Future" movie when he was challenged to a race?

Maybe I better watch them both again. I seems to only make it to the part in Doc Hollywood the first morning MJF wakes up on the lake and sees an OEM frame walking up the beach.

You were talking about frames, right.

Patrick; the "are you too chicken" line referred to what Woody Harrelson's character (funny as hell by the way) told Michael J. Fox's character after he invited him over to his office to run some numbers for him for life insurance.

Ricardo you are correct, my favorite film, hot girl, hot car and an idealistic lifestyle that in reality you would get fed up with!

Mick; do you really think so? I'd given anything to be in "Dr. Stone's" place. As you said, hot car, hot chick (especially the scene at the lake:"you can blink now....") and a nice small southern town with very hospitable and nice folks. What more could you ask for????

oh that Chicken, I remember in the BTTF movies that Marty McFly was always getting into trouble when someone accused him of being chicken.