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Come on, how leaky are they... really?

L lukenoderer
As a longtime lurker saving his pennies for the fateful day when... I have scoured these forums looking for driveability information, and come to the conclusion that these cars are either the automotive equivalent of a rolling sieve, or the notions of "warm" and "dry" are both very relative and highly subjective.

I have at different times in the past, owned as my only get-around a 1979 Beetle convertible and a 1973 Chevy Blazer. The Beetle was 100% stock, and the Blazer came with a removeable fiberglass top which I promptly replaced with an aftermarket convertible (single layer vinyl, plastic side curtains, snaps and velcro, you get the idea). I drove these cars year round, in all weather, and took both of them on cross country road trips.

While neither of these vehicles could be called "warm" or "dry" -or even "quiet and comfortable"- by modern standards, I found them to be sufficiently commodious for my needs. Yes, they leaked, but not so much that I needed wipers on my glasses or a bath towel riding shotgun. Yes, the windshield fogged, but I kept a hanky on the dash. Yes, they were cold, but not so cold that I don't still have all my toes. I tend to dress for the weather OUTSIDE, and while I expect my car to provide protection from the elements, I do not need to be isolated from them. On the other hand, my wife drives an '08 Volvo mom-car, with every comfort option available, including automatic humidity control, and dual zone thermostats with a which-side-of-the-car-is-sunny sensor.

Using thevehicles described above, where do these fake-speedsters fall in the spectrum? Pleas do not turn this into one of those "GET an IM!" "What? You could get a real one for that!" pi$$ing matches that you gentlemen are so fond of having. While I do enjoy your "spirited discussions" and have actually laughed out loud at my desk while reading them, for the moment I would really appreciate your honest feedback, based on your own experiences.

I am planning to make the drive from Long Island to Carlisle this springf, but in the meantime would really appreciate hearing your thoughts on the subject.
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L lukenoderer
As a longtime lurker saving his pennies for the fateful day when... I have scoured these forums looking for driveability information, and come to the conclusion that these cars are either the automotive equivalent of a rolling sieve, or the notions of "warm" and "dry" are both very relative and highly subjective.

I have at different times in the past, owned as my only get-around a 1979 Beetle convertible and a 1973 Chevy Blazer. The Beetle was 100% stock, and the Blazer came with a removeable fiberglass top which I promptly replaced with an aftermarket convertible (single layer vinyl, plastic side curtains, snaps and velcro, you get the idea). I drove these cars year round, in all weather, and took both of them on cross country road trips.

While neither of these vehicles could be called "warm" or "dry" -or even "quiet and comfortable"- by modern standards, I found them to be sufficiently commodious for my needs. Yes, they leaked, but not so much that I needed wipers on my glasses or a bath towel riding shotgun. Yes, the windshield fogged, but I kept a hanky on the dash. Yes, they were cold, but not so cold that I don't still have all my toes. I tend to dress for the weather OUTSIDE, and while I expect my car to provide protection from the elements, I do not need to be isolated from them. On the other hand, my wife drives an '08 Volvo mom-car, with every comfort option available, including automatic humidity control, and dual zone thermostats with a which-side-of-the-car-is-sunny sensor.

Using thevehicles described above, where do these fake-speedsters fall in the spectrum? Pleas do not turn this into one of those "GET an IM!" "What? You could get a real one for that!" pi$$ing matches that you gentlemen are so fond of having. While I do enjoy your "spirited discussions" and have actually laughed out loud at my desk while reading them, for the moment I would really appreciate your honest feedback, based on your own experiences.

I am planning to make the drive from Long Island to Carlisle this springf, but in the meantime would really appreciate hearing your thoughts on the subject.
Lane AndersonLane AndersonMt. Pleasant, SC Supporting Member
A well sorted Speedster will keep you pretty dry, but the removeable side windows (except in IMs) WILL allow some leakage, even if you make your own fancy ones like I did. The lack of convenience in being able to roll them down (for drive-thrus, toll booths, etc.) might also be a bother. The standard heaters in these cars border on non-existent, but there are options in the form of ceramic or gasoline-fired heaters that work just fine.

These don't make great daily drivers unless you live in an area of year-round nice weather like San Diego. Here in Charleston, SC it often is too hot or too wet to enjoy the car. When the weather accommodates, though, I love mine. I notice that you're in NY. The winter there would probably not be a great time to drive a Speedster. At the very least I would recommend making some plexiglass side windows as they provide MUCH better visibility.

Coming to Carlisle is the smartest thing you can do. I'll be happy to give you a ride with the car closed up so that you can see how it works for you.

Now that you can get a Coupe from both JPS and SAS, and a Cabriolet from SAS, along with the aforementioned IM cars, you have several options that offer better weather sealing than most Speedsters if you find theirs to be inadequate.

I'll update this with the link to the thread on when I made my first set of side windows. UPDATE: https://www.speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=15848

I had to make a new set when I installed a Stayfast top with larger side window openings, but they are essentially the same.
Jack CrosbyJack CrosbyHot Springs, AR, VS RabyTypeIV
Luke--I second what Lane said--coming to Carlisle is tye smartest move you could possibly make if you have an interest in one of these wonderful cars.

My car is a Vintage brand Speedster. Best described as a great value for little money, as you can get into a new one for maybe $22k.
Or a sensational used one like Alan's gorgeous Red one for a lot less.

We will be driving to Carlisle, PA from Hot Springs, AR like we always do. An easy 2,000 mile trip. We will be totally dry, as warm as we want, run 75-80 all the way and arrive fresh---again, like we always do. I don't expect any "unscheduled on the road maintenance" as I am sure of the car's reliability. So with some TLC and advice from this board you too can have a sorted car.

So if you want a "driver" you can either go the totally civilized, pre-sorted IM route or you can get a car civilized yourself. MIne was a work-in-progress for 3 years and now all I do is drive it! Life is sooo good. Tomorow I'll spoil my car with a new red top Optima battery.
Cuzn Vinny 90264Cuzn Vinny 90264
Luke, these are "fair weather" cars, they do not do well in rain, they leak on the top of the windshield and also the bottom in places, especially the ends, they leak from underneath and into the engine compartment also, anybody tells you different is full of $hit...
You can do things to fix these area's, but it is a hassle...
do not try to compare a tub to any other cars, as you did above, it don't work....
simply put, IMHO, you don't have a speedster as an only car, and your second car should be a good weather car, especially where you live....
Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member
Wow.

You know, I totally agree with Vince.

They're a nice Fair Weather car that can do OK in the occasional downpour as long as you're prepared to bail out the foot wells with a towel or something OR are willing to spend some reasonably serious money (and lots of time) to get them semi-leak-free. The ESPAR gas heaters turn them into a totally different car, but one of those will cost something north of $500 installed (for a used one). NOw....the SAS "Roadster" is really a Subaru Impreza with a Speedster body, IMO, and they seal up almost totally, but that's another story. And it's always an adventure pulling into a toll booth or even the local drive-up window, stop, get out, stand by the window to do your transaction, get back in, drive up to the pickup window, get out, get your stuff, get back in and drive around the other side of the building and repeat, because the kid inside forgot something......... {|>(

As far as winter driving is concerned, I drove from central Massachusetts to L.L. Bean's store in Freeport, Maine, once, with my late brother in his 1959 Original Speedster. Got up there fine, and hit a real Nor'Easter blizzard on the way home. The windshield promptly iced up (we simply used a scraper on the inside), the heat was just about nonexistent, but that damn thing would go through 6" of heavy snow like it was a puddle. The only thing that would stop it was snow deeper than 12" which made the pan ride up on it and lift the rear wheels off the ground.

I'd say, sure! Get one for the three nice seasons, try playing around in the snow with it and then put it away til April or so.

AND........come play with us at Carlisle or Pismo Beach.

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FM Former Member
I have a Spyder, in NY state(Hudson Valley New Paltz area). A Spyder is decidedly LESS user friendly than a Speedster, but basically the same front end and mechanics, engine, tranny, etc. I have mine fitted with a top and a gas heater. I use it whenever I feel like it, but probably NOT in a snowstorm or when there is any chance of salt on the roads. Truly, it's a three season car, and I agree with both Gordon and Vince. I did drive it once every month this cool season though, top down(not really winter this year, was it?). They leak, and that's the way it is. I have turned my car into a very reliable one, and I do drive it often. It will keep you warm and relatively dry, but not even close to a modern car.

This fall, I drove 280 miles to the Pumpkin Run in PA. It was cold and raining all the way there. Water dripped from the windshield header, but I was warm and the windows stayed clear. Heat/defrost is either on or off though.

So if you want to spend the time and effort, you can make a Speedster into a very reliable, fun car, and drive it VERY often. But where we live, it's a good idea to have another car for a daily driver.

Don't buy the first car you see, unless it's been gone over by Alan Merklin.

And welcome!
L lukenoderer
To All,
Thanks for the candid and quick responses. I look forward to meeting you this May. I do live in New York, but most of my daily commute is by train. My mandatory M-F driving is roughly one mile each way to the train station, so the heater on any car doesn't get the chance to kick in anyway. Also working as I do on construction sites, winter generally includes long-drawers and wool socks anyway.

I have read many reports elsewhere on this site of these cars leaking from the bottom up. Forgive me, but it seems that since these cars are built in serial production, once a defect of this kind was found it would be simple for the builder to correct it before the next car left the shop. (Or is this problem limited to the home-built cars?)

As a sailor, I am familiar with Espar's Diesel heaters, and I can testify that they run HOT. (As a sailor, I am also familiar with being cold and wet, and calling it "fun", but that is another story...)

What about the removeable hard-top? Why do so few owners seem to excersize this option? I understand that there are a whole host of fit/alignment issues to address, but we are talking about fiberglass. As a building material its best attributes are the ability to mold it into almost any shape, and the relative ease with which a part can be modified, either by building it up or shaving it down. This is precisely why so few boats are built of metal or wood anymore? Is there something I am missing?
L lukenoderer
Oh, and one more thing...

Even driving the POS '95 infiniti G20 I currently use as my station-car (as in "drive it to the train station, and almost nowhere else) If they haven't plowed all the way to my driveway, I call the boss and tell him that I'm having eye trouble.

Boss: What's wrong with your eyes?

Me: I don't know, but I just can't see coming to work today!

Cheers, and thanks again for the great resource.
Lane AndersonLane AndersonMt. Pleasant, SC Supporting Member
Hah! I like that, but we never have snow here so I guess I can only use it when there's a hurricane warning.

If you plan to use the Speedster as a "station car" be aware that there is really no way to secure it. Most don't have door locks, and those that do are fooling no one. Keep the Infiniti for station duty and use the Speedster on weekends. I drive mine from Charleston, SC to Carlisle every year, so it CAN be used even in bad weather (ask me how I know). I look forward to meeting you in May. Get your room reserved ASAP. They're running out fast.
Terry NuckelsTerry Nuckels'04 JPS Speedster NorCal
Luke, the "leak" from the bottom usually is because water spins up from the rear tires and makes it way to the space behind the seats. It is easily fixed by fabricating fender well guards to ward off the water spray.
If you can ride a motorcycle year 'round then you can drive a speedster.
Parking it all day at a train station might be an issue. I would suggest a water repellent car cover as these cars tend to leak more when static than they do in motion.
Make sure you stick with a vinyl interior as it is more practisal for your proposed use. Make sure you use a synthetic carpet textile instead of the wool carpets unless you like that wet dog smell and mold/mildew in the spring.
You will need "rain hats" for the carburetors as water will get into the engine compartment.
FM Former Member
Luke, I live in the mid-Atlantic. I drive my car year-round. I don't like cold weather, but long-johns, a decent fleece and a good jacket, coupled with good gloves and a fleece-lined hat ... I don't hesitate to drive it.

The cars don't really mind the cold. It's up to YOU whether or not YOU can stand driving in the cold, wet or snow. Mine doesn't have a roof, a windshield, heat or any creature comforts. Here, where I live, I'm tougher than the elements. Rain or shine, I take the Speedster and leave the '06 Golf. Not because I'm Chuck Norris, but simply because I'd rather drive the little car.

Welcome to it, man. It's much more than a hobby.

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L lukenoderer
Lane- Never say never. I rode out my share of hurricanes living in New Orleans (yes, including THAT one), but what really surprised me was the night I drove home from a Christmas party -'04 as I recall-in the aforementioned Blazer sans-top in a driving sleet and snow storm. I found that if I could keep her above 70mph and leaned in real close to the dash, the snow would fly right by, and I could see almost everything in my path (he says, tongue planted firmly in his cheek).

Yes, a car cover would be a must-have item. As for locks, they only exist to remind an honest man that he is one. A thief takes what he wants regardless- until he gets caught. I, for one, have never locked a rag-top car. My mother did once, only to find her Miata missing its radio and in need of new canvas.

I will sadly not be joining in the after-hours festivities at the hotel in Carlisle. My wife has family in Easton, PA. and a visit to them is part of the price of admission. Still, I'm sure that a good time will be had by all, and I'll see you on the show ground.
L lukenoderer
Chuck Norris? Wait, wasn't he some actor who pretended to hit guys that were paid to fall down on cue? I ain't sayin'... I'm just sayin'... Seriously though, it sounds like the weather-proofing is generally left to the end-user, but is within the realm of possibility. It also sounds like we've come right back to the beginning: "warm" and "dry" are very relative and highly subjective terms. That said, as a former vee-dub owner I know these cars should mechanically be able to take almost anything thrown at them. Heck, they built more that 13,000,000 of them over the span of 40+ years, and if guys like you weren't parting them out most of those would still be on the road (although -in one sense- even when parted out they still are on the road).

Perhaps I am missing the point in that all the trouble-shooting, tweaking, customizing, and yes complaining that comes with ownership is part of why some people buy these contraptions in the first place. O.K. I can see that.
L lukenoderer
Time to tread lightly... (or put on your workboots)

I fully understand that these are not assembly line cars, and even those coming out of the largest production shops are essentially one-off custom cars, with many components in common, and there is a level of finish out there for every pocketbook, but...
I also understand that there are problems/issues that are common to most if not all of any given makers cars (yes, even the really fancy-schmancy ones). You guys are the ones who have discovered and docummented them right here in these forums. I further understand that these same builders actively monitor and frequently participate in the conversation here. So my question is: Why continue to turn out a compromised product when simple, relatively inexpensive solutions have already been devised. I'm not talking about upgrades to the basic product, or fundamental changes to the (leaky) but beautiful original design, I'm referring to basic fit and finishing. As we say in my business, "a little caulk and paint will make a carpenter what he ain't" but if you don't even bother with the caulk and paint... why bother?
L lukenoderer
O.K. I just re-read my last post, and maybe I didn't tread so lightly. I meant no offense, and the question wasn't rhetorical. As a builder of custom things myself, I'm genuinely curious. If the answer is, "These cars were never intended to be used for anything but fair-weather fun and consequently no provision for other use was ever contemplated" then that is a fair answer. It is the same explanation for why you see so few short-sleeve snowsuits. But if there are some truly cost-effective modifications to the assembly process which could increase the useability of (and consequently the demand for) a given product, why not adopt them as standard procedure? I know for a fact that it would be easier to install an inner fender without the wheel/brake/axle in the way, and that there is probably a low-cost aftermarket part for some econobox out there that would fit with little modification. See what I mean? or am I just dreaming of a perfect world, as I often do?
Terry NuckelsTerry Nuckels'04 JPS Speedster NorCal
Two things, Luke.
Most of the builders do monitor this site and get feedback from owners. That is why JPS coupe #1 is a totally different car than coupe #6. But there is always room for improvement. The fact of the matter is that very few people buy these cars to use as a daily driver and a lot of these modifications take time which means more money on the purchase price. Take a look at most of the used speedsters. Generally, they have less than 5,000 miles on them. That means somebody bought a dream that they realized, after the fact, didn't really work for them.

As far as reliability and the enormous amount of VWs made in the day. Back in the day when these cars were built, there was an abundant supply of parts. Today there are a handful of places that still manufacture the parts but they're far from as good as the original. I remember purchasing a set of OEM front wheel bearings at a premium. The box and literature contained in the box specified OEM from Germany but the bearings were stamped KOREA. The aftermarket parts available today are sketchy at best. Most ACVW owners are cheap and want inexpensive parts. As far as I know, quality and inexpensive don't fit in the same sentence with regard to manufacturing, unless you're making a ton of them.

For the casual enthusiast, It can be a bit frustrating at times when you find yourself stuck somewhere because of some part giving out. I can only imagine that feeling being amplified when you depend on your speedster as a daily driver. I like working on my car but there are times it isn't really convenient, you know?
Jack CrosbyJack CrosbyHot Springs, AR, VS RabyTypeIV
Luke--I'm glad to see you posting here---you will be a really fine adition to the discourse --plus I'm looking forward to seeing you in person at Carlisle. sad you'll miss some evening events bur a super part of the experience is Saturday at the show field.

Yes--you will find that we have one or two that are "seldom right but never in doubt" which is what you'll find in any group composed of
folks with different ways to address things but it's all good.

You did hit the nail on the head and asked the "elephant in the room" question on your previous post (3/2/2012 6:58:36)Absolutely everyone wonders about this but it's seldom voiced. And I don't hear this asked about SAS or IM cars--thy are pretty much pre-sorted when delivered.

Why do some maker's tops have a space at the rear of the windows that you can put your hand through this applies to every car they make? Surely they don't order all tops the exact same dimensions, and wrong ones at that. Wht are the tops of the windows so skimpy that they pop out of the slot at the top at any speed over 50 mph?

I have seen cars at Carlisle where the canvas material of the top
is positioned OVER the rubber that is supposed to seal the top bow
against the top of the windshield? I'm talking factory cars--not DIY
ones.

Many care should be termed "almost sorted---you finish what we started" rather than turnkey.

The good great news is that they all can be made to provide great service if you will take the time and effort to do the sorting.

There is a better, simpler fix to the rear wheel splash guard too--I learned it at Carlisle.

My 2 cents worth. --Looking forward to meeting you at Carlisle!
Jack CrosbyJack CrosbyHot Springs, AR, VS RabyTypeIV
Lane is as nice as they come. His windows are a work of art too.

If you haven't heard, Lane and a few other talented friends built his Beck Speedster from a kit right there at the Carlisle show grounds one weekend of the show. It turned out great and Lane's car is a real driver ---not a garage queen! How about that?
L lukenoderer
"Yes--you will find that we have one or two that are "seldom right but never in doubt" which is what you'll find in any group composed of folks with different ways to address things but it's all good."

-Jack Crosby

"CERTITUDE is not the test of CERTAINTY. We have all been cock-sure of many things that were not so."

-Oliver Wendel Holmes

I did not know that about Lane's car, but I have seen pictures of it, and his custom windows, and they are beauties. Nice to hear he's a swell guy, to boot....
Lane AndersonLane AndersonMt. Pleasant, SC Supporting Member
Oh now you're making me blush.

Actually Luke, I'm completely evil. The "nice" act is just a way to suck people in and then WHAM!

BWAH HAH HAH HAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaa........

Yeah, a bunch of guys that I only knew from a few online posts and a quick visit in '05 conspired to build my car in '06. I've driven it back to it's birthplace every year since, along with annual trips to the mountains in the fall, starting in '07. Got around 30k miles on it now. Whether or not you decide a Speedster is for you, you will have fun with these folks. Even if you can't join us for our evening debauchery, try to join us for the Friday cruise. Either way, we'll see you on the showfield.
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