COOLING OR JUST COOL??

COOLING OR JUST COOL??
As of late, I have seen more and more 911 cooling conversion kits on vintage speedsters. Bernie Bergmann make a nice one in the price range $800 <<-->> $1000 U.S.
The manufacture clams 4 times more efficient in engine cooling over stock performance. This is a truly bolt on unit and it comes with a 54 AMP alternator, fan, belt, oil fill tube and hardware. Furthermore, they go on to say that spark plug change out is a breeze and Duel Carb installation and fine-tuning, is made easy with the added room created by the design. I have to say it does give the motor compartment a bit more PORSCHE panache. What I want to know is who has one? Does it work well? Moreover, is it worth all the money? And I guess you have to pull the motor out to make the conversion. If anyone would like to take a look at this conversion Bernie has some pics on his web site WWW.BERGMANNVW.COM

David S.

Ask Jake. He just comepleted a major, instrument shroud test using a dyno in a controled environment.

Check out www.massivetype4.com. This is the DTM cooling system Jake is selling. Right now it's only for a Type 4, but I think he is working on a Type 1 model.

He did a ton of testing on different 911 cooling systems vs the DTM (down the middle). Check out the Dyno Results page on the website.

I'm using a 911 cooling on my T4. Yes, everything is easier to get to. Plugs and Weber carbs come out easy. For cooling, I have no problems, it does take longer to get engine up to running temp. I just keep it easy on the revs for the 1st 15 min.

Bob in Tenn.

I just took a look at the D.T.M, Looks like a lot of work has gone into it. And the price is in the same ball park as the 911 conversion. And the dyno numbers are great. On the web site it looks like they will be making a 911 type conversion as well. Does anyone have test numbers on the 911 cooling conversion??
David S

I have a BB 911 shroud/fan on my IM. I would not recommend them. They do make it easier to work with e carbs, spark plugs etc., but there are a lot things I do not like about them and I would not purchase one again. I think that Jake's testing has proven that the 911 shroud on a type 1 is not the way to go.
Reasons why you should not buy one:
1. Same price as Jake's shroud-the 911 shroud cools less and robs the motor of more horsepower(I think Jake's figures were 12 hp).
2. Even though Bergman says that it's an easy fit, it is not. You will probably have to grind away some of the shroud and you will have to grind some metal off of the head fins.
3. You have to use a center pull linkage; again no easy task. Even the excellent CSP center pull linkage that I bought had to be modified to work.
4. I'm using a Gene Berg power pulley to slow the fan down. It actually blows too much air, and I've heard that the air can't escape fast enough, resulting in a build-up of air, which results in cavitation.
5. You have to go to an external oil cooler..which is difficult to mount and just adds more things to go wrong/leak

Now, after all that, I have to say that I love the look of the 911 fan....but not worth it. I've tried to post a picture of my shroud, but I can't seem to move a picture from my file any more. Anyways, check out my file 'ROBlack' for a picture of my 911 shroud.
Ron
(Message Edited 10/4/2003 4:28:56 PM)

Ron you are right it does look grate!! But are you going to change it now that it's all done? And can you direct me to the article that Jake posted on the hp/loss? Moreover if you had to put a price tag on the work that went into your conversion what would it be?
Thanks for the info
David S

Here is the quote from Jake;
"BTW, the power drop of thre particular 911 system shown was 18BHP at 6K........The DTM lost 8BHP at 6K."
That was all he said about the power loss. He wouldn't say which 911 system showed that loss.
I'm going to keep my 911 shroud. I've put too much time and money into it...and it looks good.
It's hard to put a $$$ value on the 911 shroud in my car. Getting the carbs to work properly with the 911 shroud was the biggest pain. When I put in the CSP center linkage it hit the shroud. I had to fabricate a piece of tubing to raise the linkage. I also had to cut away part of the shroud around the linkage and I then fabricated a piece of aluminum to better direct the airflow. I have to admit that I can strip the entire top of the motor (shroud, fan, genertor, carbs etc) in about 30 minutes. Practice makes perfect, and I've had a lot of practice!
Cost: BB shroud $900, paint $100, CSP linkage $75, my time $1,000,000

Ron

There are several types of 911 cooling kits; the ones that use the Porsche 911 alternator are the best but more expensive. It's very easy to overcool with these 911 type setups - unless you have a highly modified engine you probably don't need one.

With the 911 setup you can try different fan pulley ratios or different fans (5-blade versus 11 blade) to make cooling appropriate for your engine.

Remember David, with the 911 shroud you have to also install an external oil cooler and fan, along with the oil lines. This may seem like a fairly easy weekend conversion, but it's not. Wait, and get Jake's new shroud.
Ron

Jake is saying he will produce a DTM for the T1 in the not to distant future. The DTM is a fine looking shroud and outperformed all comers in the recent test. That is what I would wait for.

Its only downside (I think) is you have to do away with the thermostat, which in colder climates would be missed for quicker warm-ups, but that may be offset by more efficient cooling, which is 99% of your engine's operating life anyway.

Have used two of Jakes T-IV engines with the DTM shrouds . I painted the shrouds to match the car's colors... Good looking and does the cooling job well!

Alan M

Outstanding information. It seams the 911 is out and DTM is in.
Good forum everyone. Ron O. thanks for E-mail on the carbs. I think I found a new website to spend more money on. That is, when I get some.
David S.

There is a 550 Spyder replica owner who has replicated near-perfect reproductions of a number of Spyder parts, his name is Dario, a very good guy.

Dario has been developing a faux Carrera shroud for some time now and according to the Spyder site claims he will introduce it in a couple of months. The original DOHC shroud makes the 911 shroud look like crap, IMO. Very, very cool looking.

Erik, I thought Dario got out of the Porsche replica parts upgrade business?

If he is going to market a 550 look-alike fan setup it would be prudent to ask how many liters of air per second it moves before buying it just for its looks.

Everyone thought Dario was selling off his stock and quitting, but he is saying now he is just down-sizing his inventory, that he had too much personal capital tied up.

He has been hinting at introducing a Carrera shroud for a year + now, apparently it is nearing completion.

I wouldn't think of buying a new shroud of an old design without it first being tested by a neutral party. The DTM design, developed by Joe from Oregon and improved and sold by Jake, is the high water mark for some time to come.

Without a doubt, the DTM is the best system for the money!
Practicality is awesome, effectiveness is awesome and style is cool.When I get the carbon fiber version done, it'll spank the panst off a 911 shroud.

I'm developing a bell crank style linkage for it, to look even cooler as well....

The TI DTM test shroud is done and the 2165 10:1 test engine is being assembled for punishment around xmas time. The TI DTM will be available in Spring 2004 and features a TIV oil cooler provision in the stock TI location and routes 17 of the airflow into the extrenal duct for it. if it performslike its big brother, the TI world better watch out!!!

The 911 system is eye candy for those who want to spen twice the money fopr half the effectiveness........The MassIVe DTM is explained with one word AWESOME!

Jake thanks for jumping in. And I know when cooling my next T1 the DTM will be the one for me. Don't need the eye candy just a sound cooling system.
DS.
(Message Edited 10/6/2003 8:49:31 PM)

Great.....I have had a HUGE amount of folks wanting these.....so many that Imay speed up my test work!!!

George,

There is a photo of Dario's new Carrera shroud. Jake and Dario are talking about him testing it in December along with 15 other shrouds. Check the spyder site for a photo. Looks sexy, now if it works as good as it looks...

Erik, the photo looks like he is using a 550 fan/shroud as mock ups for a type 1 system he may produce; note the two fans which had isolated internal air channels in 550 engines. It will be neat if he can get this project going on a small production scale (probably not much demand), but if so it may end up costing more than a good 911 conversion.