Crank Pulley Issue

From your description of the severity, it sounds like the pulley is toast. You need to remove the pulley to inspect the crank snout for damage. If you're lucky, it'll only have destroyed the pulley. If you're unlucky, you'll be rebuilding the motor to replace/repair the crank.

 

And if this was a non-sand seal pulley (spiral grooves), the wobble could have damaged the case sealing surface which would require adding in a machine-in sand seal to fix. If it was a sand seal pulley, you'll need a new sand seal.

 

The torque for the stock pulley bolt is 32 ft-lbs. 30mm socket for stock bolt (1-1/4" will work in a pinch).

Pete, that sucks.  Here's hoping you only have to replace the pulley.

Drop a note to Carey , he'll be able to guide you accordingly

Holly crap! I had no idea it could be that bad... Super bummer I've only put 6000 miles on it since I got it in August of 2013. Thanks for the info. Guess I'll miss Carlisle yet again.

 

I'll give Carey a call on Monday. I'll start trying to see what's what after I pull the tin etc.

 

"If you're unlucky, you'll be rebuilding the motor to replace/repair the crank." How will I know if I'm lucky or not. There's no fluid coming out that I've noticed but lots of fine black dust. I'm guessing threads could be toast. ? I'm so bummed as I heard this noise for a while but didn't think much of it until yesterday when it got louder.

 

Thanks guys.

 

Pete

Shoot a short video and send to Carey

Thanks again Guys for the info. I'm hoping it's got the sand seal pulley, looks like it as it's got the degree markings on it.

I should have known something was up when I started seeing more and more black dust (thought it was normal though from the belts). When I last did the valves early last fall both my buddy and I heard the strange noise but there was no wobble and it sounded like the fan shroud and 3 bolts were loose in the shroud front, behind the compressor (you can see two in the engine picture), I tightened these up and thought that was it but the noise was still there, again I thought it was a normal noise at that point and it never seemed to get worse until last week and yesterday.

Not clear in pictures but that rear breast plate should come off fairly easily (but little room) with the rubber riveted gasket (6-8 10mm bolts or looks like maybe allen button heads).  I wouldn't think its riveted on both sides as the engine kind of floats and should be removable with all tin intact.

 

This might help - makes big deal on removing pulley though

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-28LVGrkw0

 

Thanks Wolf,

 

I don't think I'll have a problem with taking it out as loose as it is. I think once I remove the belts it's going to fall out or I can twist the nut by hand to remove it. It's hard to explain but the crank bolt is not standard, it's a larger chromed bolt with a very thin contact surface area maybe an 1/8" or so. Also,I emailed Carey to see if he knows how the AC condenser pulley is attached to the CB crank pulley. I'm hoping it's not tack welded or something crazy, Looking at the pic's I took it appears to be bolted to it. I'm hoping it's a sand pulley and the seal is what all the dust is from and not form the engine crank.  I will get into it later today and see what the heck I'm going to have to deal with.  

 

Thanks,

Pete 

I was able to swap out my pulleys for a serpentine belt system without removing anything other than the piece of the tins right around the pulley itself, although the lack of A/C on mine may have helped.

Well with a bad wobble, the black dust probably is just the sides of the belts wearing away.

If that pulley is aluminum, including the hub, it can be soft enough that it wallowed out without damaging the harder steel crankshaft.

I don't see evidence of oil leaks, which you would expect if the case seal was messed up.

Pay close attention to the keyway slot in the crankshaft.....  Damage here will need attention.

Well I may be in luck. After only a few cuss words I removed just 4 rivets from the rubber gasket to the rear tin and got the tin out. I also had a 30mm socket with 1/2 drive. the chrome CB crank bolt is 1/4" thick at the nut head. It's the CB Crank pulley that has an indentation and made it look like the bolt was only an 1/8" thick at the head. 

 

I cant see any damage nor a sand seal unless it was ground down to dust I cleaned it all up. I don't see any oil leak or any damage to the crank.

 

It may take a special CB socket to tighten. I don't understand why it's recessed in the pulley. Unless that was meant so it wouldn't be over tightened. 

 

The bolt threads and crank thread groves look good but have rust, should I lube the threads some?  Any thoughts?

 

Thanks to all for your help.

 

Pete  

Looks to me like it was never tight and it wallowed out the soft aluminum AC pulley mounting surface - probably because the two never mated perfectly together.  Can you go to a single steel pulley system by moving the AC compressor in needed amount?

 

Thanks Wolf. I didn't think of that! That the AC pulley could have been worn in by the bolt. That makes sense. If I go to put it back on there's no way I can tighten it once it goes into the hex shape it is funny since there appears to be no worn out edges to the bolt head.  ???

 

Do you think I can stack some steel washers in to level it out so I can tighten it back on? That would mean about a 1/4"less thread in the Crank.

 

Thanks for the picture and one pulley idea. It' pretty tight so unless I really have to I'll see if I can use the set up I have.

 

Thanks

 

 

I'd put a new pulley on it without the AC hooked up until you get answer from Carey (of course he's headed to Carlisle now).  Obviously it wasn't righto begin with since it only lasted 6k miles.  All that goop between the 2 pulleys is not right either.  There is too much to damage in that area of engine to jury rig something up.  A steel pulley is best solution.  

Thanks Wolf. It was a used 2009 Speedster when I bought it from Carey at their shop in 2013. But the engine was new with only the break in miles. CB did the motor so I may try and talk to them over the phone on Monday.

Yeah, I would call Carey first.  I doubt that that engine arrived at Bremen with that extra pulley (But'cha never know) which was added to support the A/C system.  It may be a defective pulley or just may not have been tightened properly - who knows?

 

What I DO know is that Carey & Co. stand by their products and customers and do what they can to make things right, so call him tomorrow (He probably already knows about it from reading here!)

Wolfgang- I don't think that works with dual carbs...

The pulley was wobbling on the crank (likely loose bolt) which just pounded the shape of the bolt into the face. But that means the pulley hub is wallowed out, there would be no point trying to get the bolt to tighten back up when the hub no longer fits the crank.

 

I agree that it looks like a replacement pulley should get you back on the road quick. The AC pulley could then probably be reworked by a machine shop to be reused later.

Thank you all I do appreciate all the help.

 

It sucks. I didn't think that the crank pulley wasn't factory made the way it was until I got it off.

 

Will any standard crank pulley work? The pulley hole opening on this one is 36.20mm/1.425". The bolt is about 26.20mm/1.03" long X 19.73mm/.78 " diameter at the threads. The bolt head is 30mm. I'll have to rush order one to get it here in time for Carlisle.  

Pete,

Your main pulley is CB's standard degreed crank pulley and the added pulley is one made for us by the AC components manufacturer.

Yes, you can run a single long belt, but we do not recommend this set up since loss of your AC belt also means loss of your alternator/fan belt.  This is why we worked on a 2 pulley system...

We use a small jig to locate the added pulley onto the crank pulley and then they are both drilled and tapped.  They get a coating of a high temp 2 part epoxy before getting bolted together, just for good measure, and then removed from the jig.

 

I can see form your photos that the gland nut came loose at some point and has chattered through the aluminum of the added pulley.

A standard gland nut has a large washer behind it, however the added pulley makes it too think to use this washer, so the gland nut is designed to tighten down on the AC pulley flange itself, which keeps the stock depth of the nut into the crank.  New, the bolt is not recessed into the pulley and does not require any special tool except a 30mm socket.  Yours has eaten its own groove, make a recess...

 

I'll double check torque values for you, but from memory it is 35lbs for that pulley.

 

Because of the way the 2 pulleys are attached, I'd have no issue running it "as is" for the short term (i.e Carlisle).  As long as you you can verify 2 things: 1) you are able to tighten it down enough to get rid of any play, which may be hard since it looks like the nut has indexed itself into the aluminum.  Since the keyway will not allow the pulleys to spin, the nut may want to lock in place before everything is seated. Plus the inside of the pulley itself may be wallowed larger than the end of the crank by now.

and 2) the 5 bolts in the back of the crank pulley are tight, not wallowed out, and the 2 pulleys are still tightly fastened together.

OR you can change to a stock pulley and bypass the AC until you get new pulleys.

 

In the long term:

I can supply you a new AC pulley and you'd have to separate the 2, locate the AC pulley, drill and tap the AC pulley to match your crank pulley, and reinstall.  Or I can order you a new crank pulley and mate the 2 for you.

Honestly I'd feel more comfortable making the whole assembly for you since our jig will not allow them to be mated untrue.

 

I have a spare CB degreed pulley I can bring to Carlisle if that will help, but you really need it before so you can drive.  Let me know if you need me to bring it.

Thanks Lane, if you don't mind carrying it with you.  I was hoping to maybe order one to get here in time to bring my car. Carey is also checking for me too on his parts. So I'm not sure I'll need it and don't want to put you out. I will be going up as planned one day either Friday or Saturday whatever day the weather is best on.  Looking forward to meeting everyone.  You guys have been great!

 

I've asked Carey to build me another one when he can. Cool Beans

 

Pete

It doesn't take up a lot of space.  See you in Carlisle!

Pete,

 

I built one for you on my lunch break and will have it at Carlisle.

 

Get you some of that!  That's why I'm a loyal Beck owner.

Wow! I owe you a lunch too! So cool!

 

When I went to Bremen both Carey and Kevin spent time with me and some family.  It was on a great Saturday when they both had commitments. Yet they stayed answered all my newbie questions and helped me with the entire licensing process later. Right then and there I knew I'd buy one of their cars and did so that day...

 

Thank you Carey!  And again thanks to all for your help and suggestions. See you at Carlisle.

 

Lane thanks again for the offer but I now have a temporary crank pulley to get me to the Show.  

 

Pete

lunch break LOL.  I would assume as busy as you all are...you meant to say, I made one up for you Pete- instead of eating my snicker bar and getting a swig of water...

what is this thing called a lunch break?

Maybe that's my problem -- it's always 5 o'clock in Margaritaville!

I'm with Tom. How can you beat that kind of service? That's why I'm a Special Edition "lifer."

 

Have fun at Carlisle guys!! 

 

Anand

 

Yup, that's why Carey gets my respect! He da man!

Yeah, you know......You're out by the CNC machine making up a mated pair of pulleys and splashing that cutting oil around, and you happen to have a Subway sub you're munching on while the machine is doing it's thing, and you get a little cutting oil splashed on your sub..........

 

Hey!  It's the same as Olive Oil......Right???

 

Way to go, Carey!

I would not run the pully if it is loose on the crank,if there is any movement at all.I also tighten mine up tighter than the oe spec witch is pitifull low for that size bolt. I like more like 50 on my stuff,but aluminum is soft and can deform, if the ac pully wasent perfectly flat&the cb pully face not also perfectly flat where they mate that can cause toe pully to rock....then do this. also if the ac pully had a step in it to locate on the crank hole of the cb pully(witch it should) but the step was too deep the step would contact the crank and a false tightening of the pully would result,and again this is what would/could happen.things need to be checked.Ive seen many pullys with different thickness. some have a deep recess when on the crank some only about .080" and possibly some even less.you really never know untill you get all the parts& start measuring with real measuring tools to see what you have and what you need. if it were mine I would also probably add some screws to it also.or.....get a vw ac pully, machine it for sand seal &install it. one more thing you never paing inbetween something like this (on the mating serfaces) that is a sure way to have things come loose.( a very very light coat shouldent hurt,but if I were to do it I would lightly coat the part& assemble while the paint is wet and torque it T00.that way it squishes the paint out and coats what ever voids are there. hard paint is not structure,and will not carry a load...well not for long any way and this is what can happen.... I hope you getter done.Be carfull when removing&installing a new pully. it is very easy to push the key out of the grove ,it's a moon key so it will push up&out and when it pushes out & up at the same time it will deform the pully too and Ive seen them grab the case& lock the entire mess up. or the kep drops out into the gear chamber...not good. be sure your groove is inline with the keway!!!tight fiting keys in the crasnk are good, loose ones are the problem ones. and locktight can be your friend to tighten the key, but dont licktight the pully on too!! well I doubt that would hurt. also dimpling the key or a thicker key can help. but......you cant get there from hear....case gotta be split in most instances.

Thanks Mark great tips! I've ordered a new temporary Crank pulley. Should be here tomorrow. Carey is making/made me a new Crank and AC pulley and is bringing it to Carlisle.  

great,you should be good to go. most bolts are torqued& the bolt stretches witch helps hold it in place, but these the bolt is so big it would take probablly over 150 to get any stretch, that would crush the aluminum pulley .the pulley normaly has a bevel washer(spring washer) that keeps it tight.some do some dont have the bevel,the issue with b evel on aluminum is it digs in the pully( they can be used but the outer edge needs to have a nice radi so it dosent dig in), and be sure it's torqued so it is in full contact,not just outer edge)  and dosent do what it should,so they use a flat washer. you need to be sure you are torqued and I would use locktight,make sure the threads are clean in the crank,use breakleen to clean them. and keep an eye in the assy for a good while.you can check the torque againif you wish if it's loose the locktight didnt work. there are also atleast 2 diferent lengths of pully bolt.(aftermarket) I think the vw ac bolt is also longer than the std bolt,I have one somewhere along with the oe vw ac pully setup.....somewhere. I plan on having ac on my 2393 in my 356 if it ever gets done. I hope to someday be up there with it. as always keep you eyes ears and mind open.....and air filters on.

Thanks again Mark. I bought the CB long bolt with the 3/8 drive and large head so no washer is needed.

 

My buddy HOLLYWOOD Syl (commercial TV star)came over and helped me get this thing right. We were very careful with the key and the new CB degreed crank pulley was a real bear to get on it's tight. I ended up heating it some and using a 2X4 and got it in enough to get the bolt started it went in from there true and the key was tight too so no problem there. I ended up going way over 35lbs not sure what but it's okay.  I going to have to buy a puller to get this one off though.  Every thing is good and I'll be joining the gang for a day.

 

Pete