Curious....Porsche copyright issues??

Hello All,

I'm just amazed at the vast knowledge of the members of this site. I've basically fallen in love with the little tub, and I'm doing lots of research on the car (reading this site, talking to everyone about it, dreaming). I have many questions as I prepare to jump in and carve my way through malibu canyon in the middle of the night. But I do ask, does Porsche not like the idea of builders replicating their cars? I've read that Ferrari has sued companies over reproducing the GTO, and those same companies will not sell the Ferrari badge.
Just wondering if anyone knows if Porsche thinks its great for the car, or do they raise their noses?

Thanks, and can't wait to spin my way to the beach.
Mark

I've thought about that too. The general consensus is why would they complain about someone replicating a model that they haven't built since 1965? If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, it can only benefit the mark in general.

Do a search on the word "trademark." I had the same feeling, why would Porsche care, but trademark law needs to be understood and I found some good information from some of our board members.
John H.

Best maybe leave this thread die, don't want to give any bloodsuckers,(lawyers) a reason to start litigation,

True, Bruce. We've already had one drive-by (written threat), on registering our rep's as real porsches, by a lurking state official (who interestingly enough listed his "unabridged" title and government branch in his post signature).

MM

Look carefully at the major replica makers. They make a 356 Speedster Replica. Nowhere do they claim to make a Porsche replica. The word Porsche may be used by individual owners, but never the manufacturers.

Registering your replica as a Porsche is illegal in all 50 states and I'm sure almost every country.
-=theron

That's right; and the distinction is important. Porsche has a continuing interest in preserving its right to the name and logo. As for the Speedster model car, the same does not hold true. They, long ago, stopped producing that little car -- and so it can easily be said that they have abandoned any real license they had on the car's shape. It is, more or less, in the public domaine. So, builders can make a car that looks like what Porsches used to look like; but they can't call it by the name Porsches still go by. Pretty straightforward stuff. Hasn't changed much since I was in "bloodsucking" school back in the '70's. Actually, Bruce, in the Northeast we prefer to be referred to as lawyers - but I never did get the hang of 'Oregonian' speak. "Ya sure ya betcha"

Makes sense to me.......I think. I would also open the question to other 'real' speedster owners, not just the company. Do most guys open with a smile and nod when they see a replica. I don't mean to start any turmoil, just interested.

I've heard a rummer that Aliens are comming,

There eatting lawyers and tinkleing gasoline.... Oh Dear!!!

If you do not put porsche badgeing on the car.I don't any legal problems, But a lot folks do anyway The main thing that would kick that out of court is that if it's titled as a replica they would have no grounds for suit.

Herb,

In the NW we don't need lawyers, especially in real estate transactions. What a welcome relief after we paid them gross amounts of $$ in Illinois for about 10 minutes work, and that was done by his secretary, so that and a couple other instances have left me rather jaded about lawyers. Seems to me that they take advantage of their knowledge of the law to the detriment of their clients. Of course maybe most other people have had wildly happy experiences, so I'm completely out of line.

Bruce

Barry, I like a good lawyer joke as much as the next guy -- but that is a dumb lawyer joke. Let

After watching the Coens' take on divorce attorneys (Intolerable Cruelty) all my loathing is satisfied. Lawyers are back on my ok list after that roasting in the name of fun.

Mommy, can you get pregnant from anal sex????
Of course dear, where do you think lawyers come from.....

Thats the only lawyer joke I know, but I love it..
Had a great divorce lawyer once, saved me alot of money...
their great when you need one, especially if you win....
They get a bad rap, mostly deserved, but They are a necessary evil..
especially in a greedy society like we live in....
I've said it before, I have no problem removing the porsche emblems
from my copycat...They shouldn't be allowed on them to begin with....
I believe Porsche and all the rest of the replicated companys should have the right to protect their products....

Deal.

From what I have observed over the past few years, Porsche and Ferrari have been inconsistent but persistent in their approach to replicas and trademark infringement. Some of the things they have done seem reasonable, while others appear to be counterproductive for brand awareness. For example, Ferrari came after Thunder Ranch on the later model Ferraris but left them alone on the GTO. Ferrari has seldom come after anyone on the GTO when configured as a convertible, which they never made. Porsche came after PGO in France and zapped them pretty good and even received a cash settlement. The PGO version looked much like a Speedster but had very different dimensions and a front engine. As someone else stated, they seldom go after an owner but have conducted a pretty good campaign of intimidation with the small assemblers of replicas worldwide. Websites have disappeared immediately after a letter from a Porsche or Ferrari lawyer. While many of us think this is much ado about nothing, apparently Porsche and Ferrari do not see it that way. Makers of other exotics probably do not want to fool with it. I would certainly challenge Porsche to make the case that their approach has been necessary, cost effective and brand enhancing.

What's brown and black and looks good on a lawyer?

A doberman


I really think that Porsche will not bother owners that put their badges on but they will probably not like makers putting them on. But then again, isn't this the biggest form of flattery?

Happy Canada day to those in the great white north

Theron and Herb,

I read your comments with great interest. I have an older IM Roadster - on a 69 pan- which I have been trying to get titled since April. I won't mention the state but that's why I included you Herb in this post(BTW seems you practise about 40 miles south of where I am). The DMV keeps talking about it as being a "Porsche reconstruct", but I have no idea how they will eventually issue the title. I'm guessing that as long as it says reconstruct there would be no problems likes what's being discussed in this thread. Not including the lawyer jokes!

Joe,
I have two replicas and one is an IM. New Jersey titled the IM as a year: 2001 make: ASV (Henry at IM could probably explain the ASV designation, but that is the maker that came up when they put in my VIN number) model: RDS (roadster).

I also have a 1986 Envemo roadster. The Envemo is pan based, and NJ still titled it by the year built by Envemo. The IM (being 2001) is not based on an older donor car.

Either way, I had no trouble with the titling. The insurance, well, that's another saga -- for another topic. That eventually got worked out once I was able to explain the difference between a manufactured reproduction and a kit car. The big issue for New Jersey (and it seems most insurance companies as well) is that it must be made clear it is not an owner altered vehicle.

As for the copyright issues, that subject could go on for ever. I will do a seperate reply to the last post on that issue.

This patent / copyright issue is really causing a lot of undo consternation. The problem is that the laws are very involved; although fortunately, most companies apply a little common sense in enforcing them.

The main point to keep in mind is that most companies will only get nuts about enforcing their patents if it is causing them to lose money. As a general concept, if you reproduce something a company is currently making money selling, they will come after you.

Let's try it this way. I recently lost a hub cap from my IM and decided to replace the other three as well. I wanted Porsche crests on the hub caps. I could buy the hub caps from a lot of sources (because they are generic), but not with Porsche crests. I could have bought hubcaps from Porsche, with the crests. They would not care what I do with them, so long as I buy them from Porsche. The problem is that Porsche hubs don't fit my wheels. And, Porsche doesn't make hubs for cars that are not Porsche.

That doesn't mean it is not legal to have Porsche hubs on a non-Porsche car -- only that Porsche has chosen not to make them. So, I buy generic hubs. Now, (this is where the situation is so often confused) I still don't have the crests. Porsche would gladly sell me crests, but they are $77 a piece from Porsche. Bootleg crests are about $18 a piece.

Problem is, Porsche owns the logo; so any crest but theirs is not legal. If I buy the Porsche crests, they couldn't care less if I stick them on a DeSoto. They haven't lost a dime because Porsche doesn't make a DeSoto. They sold their crests, and I didn't buy bootleg crests. If I buy the bootleg crests, Porsche is losing money on the sale. Someone else is using the Porsche logo, to make money; and in the process, Porsche loses money. That is the key to all this.

How does that translate to the car? It gets fuzzy because we are putting Porsche logos on (not DeSotos, but) cars that look like cars Porsche used to make. Porsche probably still has the rights to the car shape, but they aren't losing money when someone else uses it because Porsche no longer does use the shape to make cars. If it were economically feasible for Porsche to go into the Speedster business again, they would probably run all the other builders out of business (or at least try to). I'm not so sure they could do it because the exact scope of a given patent is not as broad as you might think.

Anyway, Porsche doesn't sell a Speedster shaped car, so why would they want to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in stopping others from (basically) keeping a Porsche legend alive? That's a rhetorical question, because they probably could start a lawsuit, but it is not guaranteed they would win it; and what would they gain if they did. And what money are they losing right now because others are using the shape? (another rhetorical question).

The only person who has a reason to gripe about a repro with a Porsche badge is an owner of a real Speedster. He's probably not seeing the full potential of his investment because there are so many copy cats around. That may not even be so either, but it is at least theoretically possible. It's not even theoretically possible for Porsche to be losing money on the sale of a repro -- unless it is a repro of a car they still make. Which is why Ferrari takes the position it takes.

Guys, if you want to spend time worrying about going to the big house because you have a car that says "Porsche" that's really not a Porsche -- maybe you will have a cell mate who got put away for tearing the tag off his mattress. Those guys will get in trouble first. Just don't sell your copy cat to some niave Porsche collector and tell him it is a real Porsche. That's a whole different ball game. Sorry for the length of this reply, but if you ask a lawyer what time it is he won't stop talking until he has explained how you make a watch.

My vehicle is titled as a "1964 VW Speedster." I did not dream up the title, the DMV in the state where I live did that.

The car is built on a 1964 pan upgraded to IRS. The body is an older FiberFab that somewhat resembles a Speedster but has a wing built into the engine compartment cover. (Pictures under vwguy.)

By the way, I have my 1964 VW Speedster insured by a national company under just that title. The local agent is aware of the whole situation and there appears to be no problem.

Herb,, Tell Martin Mull he told it first.

I recently sold/gave to a friend a "kit" car that was tited as a "kargi" because the pan was from a karmann Ghia, and registered as a "VWOTHER" because the body was unknown and the only box left on the form was "other".

I think that everything depends on who is typing the info into the computer. It WAS sort of funny getting it inspected, but the info was there in the DMV link in the inspection station computer so nothing ever went a miss.

TC

How many lawyers does it take to screw in a light bulb? Two; I just don't know how they get in there.

While my JPS is legally titled as a '71 VW, my all knowing insurance agent, after photographing the car, decided I was driving a '71 Porsche Speedster. Betcha haven't seen one of those lately??? Since the Porsche mystic was not reflected in my insurance rates I just let it go.

I have to contribute here ...my wife's "toy" is a '92 Miata dressed in a 2002 BMW Z-3 body kit that was originally built in Tenn. It has a 10 digit Tenn. Vin number assigned to it after it's completion.
Here in Pennsylvania, it is now titled as a 2002 BMW Z-3.
A question had popped up after we registered it. PennDot flagged the transaction after the fact due to it not having a standarized 17 digit Vin number.I was sent a letter of inquiry and asked to have the Vin number verified. Ithen drove it to the local DMV agent here to have the ten digit Vin number physical verification done.
So, there I was, standing next to the "Z" while a PennDot agent walked around the car twice, then examined the Vin plate on the door sill,stares at the dash (now minus the factory Vin plate with "Miata" floor mats staring back at him he remarks" ..........

"Super nice Z-3!"

Aaaahhhh Goverment!

There are probably as many similar experiences as there are DMV workers around the U.S. But, that doesn't change the law as written. And, as Theron pointed out (and he is absolutely correct) it is not legal to title a kit car or a repro car as what it RESEMBLES. You have to title it as what it IS. The gray area is -- is a '67 VW built out by Vintage Speeders (for example) in 1985 a '67 VW or an '85 Vintage Motor Works. What it is definitely not, however, in any state, is a '59 Porsche.

Soooo... What do you call my 2004 IM W/ tube frame and all '89 911 mechanicals. Motor, trans, and suspension?

FAST! and QUICK!

This gets more and more interesting/confusing all the time.

My Roadster was originally bought as a coach in 1982 but not finished until 1991. It was registered in Canada as a 1991 Porsche Replicar.

As I said in my previous post it is a 1969 VW pan and the VIN # corresponds. I wound up dealing with the Foreign Title Unit and tried to tell the DMV staff that it should go in as a 1969 but they got all hung up in the "Reconstruct" mode. I have no idea what they will do but at this point I don't give a damn since it has been sitting in my garage since April.

Anyone have any ideas?

Marcos,
When you bought it from IM, didn't you get a title. If you did, (you're in N.J.) you just call it what the title already calls it. But I agree it is also called "real quick off the line".

Joe, You seem to be caught in a web of beauracratic incompetence. If the vin # is VW, why are they having so much trouble. You put the make: "VW", the vin#: (which their computer should accept) and model: "2 door" and they should be able to take it from there. Keep it simple, and try not to throw a government worker a curve ball. Their automatic response to anything even the least bit out of the mainstream is usually frustration and a "you will be sorry for making me think today" attitude.

Since the Speedsters usually have all Volkswagen internals and drive trains and chassis, they are essentially rebodied Volkswagens aren't they. A few steps away from a customized Volkswagen. What if, for the sake of registration ease and insurance and inspections by various DMV and their appointed stations . . . the badging was temporarily changed to Volkswagen . . .

Hood, interior, horn button, fender script, trunk, and for good measure, floor mats and number plate surround . . . all said Volkswagen. The numberplate surround could even be one of those cheezy black plastic ones from the local VW AUTOMALL.

THEN, when all is said, done, and checked over, you'll just be driving a customized VW. Like you took a beetle chopped off the top and replaced the hood, fenders, doors, and deck lid with fiberglass. It's legal to customize your car, in this instance yopu simply did a really great job of it.

LATER, change all the badging and trim back to Speedster . . .

Maybe?

TC

Herb,

Thanks. At this point I will continue to take baby steps and see what happens. If it comes out screwy maybe I'll just work on correcting the title. But at least I will have the chance to drive.

When this is over I'll contact you and maybe we can cruise to a local hangout.

Team Evil,
That's a lot of trouble to go to, and for no reason. It's not the badging on the car that determines the make. It's the VIN. If your car is VW based, and you know the VIN number from the chassis, you're done. It could have a Rolls Royce flying lady on the hood an no one will care. "Make, model, year, and VIN number" all have to jibe; and if they do, that's it. If they don't, that's when you run into these gliches. When you go to get the car inspected, you only need the registration. To register it you need the title; and to title it . . . that's when you have to have the make, model, year, and VIN. If it is a VIN from a known auto maker, and you know the year the auto maker built the DONOR car, you should have no trouble at all. That's assuming you have a prior title.

Team Evil:

I originally registered my Speedster in Massachusetts when I finished it. The donor car was a 1969 red Beetle Sedan, and the VW VIN was/is intact.

When I went to the insurance/registry, I registered it as a 1969 Beetle, but I told them that I had put a convertible body on it and painted it white. "Oh!", said the lady at the Worcester DMV counter, "My brother does that stuff all the time - he runs a body shop! Just fill out this RMV-1 form with what it is now and you'll be all set." - Bingo.

So, my Speedy is registered (now in Rhode Island) as a white, 1969 VW Beetle convertible and everyone's happy (for now, I guess).

gn

lets face it, you hand or checkbook build a rebodied vw to look like
a Porsche speedster. You go to a lot of trouble to get Porsche
vanity plates,some even run illegal plates of a certain year to
match what thy want everyone behind them to think it is.Some even
have found ways to title their car as a Porsche,so why would you
worry about having after market Porsche emblems on your car?
Just drive and enjoy!!!
Jim

GORDON!

That's perfect! I cut your response and pasted it into a sticky to keep on the desk top.

When it's done, that's just how I'll do it.

Again, it might seem like such a small thing, but you just made my day--week--year.

Simple, easy ,and true . . . a convertible bode painted white . . .

TC

One of the problems with titling a car is the insurance question. If you somehow get the DMV to issue your replicar a title as a 1957 Porsche Speedster, you may have major problens with insurance.

The key here is to be completely open and honest with your insurance agent. You need to furnish pictures and full mechanical specs. Once the insurance agent buys off on the package, you are in.

The reason I bring this up is that an acquaintance of mine managed to title a rail dunebuggy as a 1965 Volkswagen sedan. He drove it on the street, despite the fact that it did not meet the vehicle code. He fended off the cops for a while, but his insurance agent spotted him driving it and his insurance was soon cancelled. The vehicle fell into a sort of automotive limbo where it could not be relicensed because of no insurance and it could not be reinsured because of the previous cancellation. He did get out from under, but the scheme he used was a little bit illegal.

Ok, but we have gotten away from the lawyer jokes.

My favorite lawyer "joke" actually comes from a completely mediocre movie. (Danny Devito's Other People's Money)

When DeVito's character is told, "for someone who hates lawyers, you sure have a lot of them" his response was:

"Lawyers are like nuclear weapons, they have theirs, so I have mine. But once you use them, everything gets f@#ked up."

present company excluded of course. What most people forget is that for every 10,000 bad lawyers, there are 1 or 2 good ones.

rob