CV boots

Phil, isn't your setup the same as every newer IM with a type 1 tranny?

Give Henry a call.  The CV boots should last longer than 12,000 miles. 

I did mine a number of years ago.  Instead of just buying the boots I bought the complete axles/boots.  No surprise that it's much cheaper to just buy the boots-around $65 for all four-compared to $200 for new complete IRS axles.

Phil:

Henry has a new boot that he is going to try out.  I arranged this for him through my Porsche shop here.   It works a lot better than the standard boots you can buy, and they are not that expensive.

I'll PM you with the information once I find it.

Bob

FYI, Phil, the issue is not with the movement forward of the engine/tranny but rather with the height of the audi,VW watercooled engines.  When you mate the tranny it forces the tranny to be higher off the ground resulting in a greater angle on the CV joints compared to a full VW A/C setup.  

This strains the boots somewhat and so causes you to need to replace them more often than in a full VW A/C setup.  On the other hand you do have a very dependable engine.  

All the other setups, full subie, subie + 915P tranny(Marty), or Full P do not have that issue as the angles are better when you use the same manufacturer for both engine and tranny.  

I have a Quickjack, you might look one up it helps me do most of my work on my IM

Hope this helps.

First of all and from everything I have heard about them, the EMPI boots are junk.

Secondly, even though CV axles are super-easy to get out and back in, I have never replaced just the boot on one.  Well, maybe once, and I got so much CV joint grease all over me that I figured that, overall, it was  easier to swap the entire axle.

Having said that, you might find the proper (non-EMPI) boots out there once you know what kind of CV joints/axles you have.  If it's a "normal" Type 1 transaxle, then any 1969-on VW sedan will fit (including super beetle), along with the axles/CV's for a Porsche 924 - Not sure if the axles from a 944 fit or not.

The axles I'm running currently I got from Raxles, down in Florida and are great :

http://www.raxles.com/splitboots.aspx

Give them a call at 

1-800-257-8192

and see if they will sell you just the boots - they have stuff for just about everything out there.

I've had issues with the black rubber CV boots just dry rotting and falling apart - suspect its made in India.  There used to be colored polyurethane ones available.  Maybe check a VW dune buggy site.  If I were to replace the entire axles - I'd upgrade to Porsche 930 ones to handle the extra power.

Careful with that one - I talked to the Raxle guys about 930 axles for my car and according to them, the mating collars weren't the same as a T-1.  I never confirmed that, but several people have told me that they're different, not to mention more expensive.

Re: Axle Assemblies

There are inexpensive IRS axle assemblies, complete with boots, CV joints, and axles for less than $100 everywhere. I wouldn't do it, especially on an IM.

Henry builds with German (SKF, I believe) CV joints. The EMPI stuff (and it's all EMPI stuff from AutoZone or wherever) is not something I'd want to use with a 100+ hp motor. There will be no shortage of guys who say they're just fine, and that's OK-- I'm just not one of them.

Actually, there are three choices of CV joints that'll work in T1 IRS, if memory serves: stock T1, T2, and 930. The T1 joints are just about at their articulation limit with an air-cooled engine in the new orientation (slid forward). The T2 joints tolerate a slightly more radical angle and are more robust. The 930 joints are stronger still, and tolerate the most angle of all the choices.

I really wanted to put T2 or 930 CVs in my car, but if I remember correctly-- the problem is that the T2 and 930 axles require new conversion axle and transmission stub-shafts (probably EMPI, but they aren't bearings, so...). If you get German CV joints and the conversion stuff, it gets pretty spendy, pretty quickly. Since my problem is never with the CV joint, but with the boots-- I ended up just cleaning and re-packing my German CV joints, getting Sway-Away axles, and buying EMPI boots. If I remember correctly, I got some sort of off-road boot that looked more like an accordion than stock.

Complete aside: getting old stinks. You research and learn all this stuff, then forget it 6 months later.

Anyhow-- cleaning and re-packing CV joints is really, really messy-- but worth it (IMHO) if you already have superior joints and want the best you can get. 

I'd love to hear about some better boots (silicone would be nice), Bob. My feeling is that the joints on an IM are better because they have to be. The boots are what they are, because nobody makes/sells better ones.

Forewarned is forearmed.

Stan can you buy a complete German irs axle assembly anywhere? I had to replace my setup a few years ago and I bought EMPI.

930 conversion kits with everything needed are $600 - compared to say $150 x 2 ($300) for stock quality VW new axles. Check out the CV boots for vast amounts of articulation.  Plus extra Madness points!

http://www.jbugs.com/product/16-2236.html

Thanks guys.  Axle angles do seem a bit extreme.  I'm just trying to figure what I've got so I can do some research.  I've been told to maybe try boots for off road purposes.  My intermeccanica spec sheet says this is what I've got:

VW T-4 Lobro CV joints

Will these boots fit my set up?

Boots for 94 mm OD Lobro CV joints (78 mm bolt circle)

Thanks

914 guys go to AutoAtlanta - $6.25 each

http://www.autoatlanta.com/Por...PN-R91433203500.html

I was told by a guy at cip1.com that my boots are Type 2 bus 100 mm.  He said my best bet would be dune buggy boots because of the increased axle angles.  Like these:

Have you called Henry to see what he suggests?  I would think others have called and he has boots that he has tried that work... just saying.

I was thinking of those, too.  Even better if they have a high silicone content to make them more flexible, but T2 boots should work.

My mechanic says the flange for the dune buggy boot is not compatible.  I did email Henry a few days ago and have not heard back yet.  This has to be a common problem of all the vw/audi watercoooled cars and it seems also for the IM6 cars.  Radical axle angle is presumably the cause. I think I have more problems than other folks since I drive the P!SS out of the car, now with 23,000 miles.   I'm just in a bit of a hurry this week since I'm taking the car on Friday for a week long vacation in the mountains for foliage viewing... and the annual Charlottesville Film Festival!

I think like all builders, he is a bit behind on emails but if you text him he should respond. PM me if you want his cell. 

Also I wonder if Dale Bates could chime in having had such a beast

Phil:  Henry may take a couple days to get back to you.  I assume he is quite busy with his new Electrameccanica venture.

I have his cell.  My mechanic says he has a solution using larger boots.  I will post when I get part number.

They installed same ones as before.  Part # AAA251598201.  Looks like this will be a chronic problem unless someone can really think outside of the box.

Phil, you'll be able to change those boots in your sleep after a couple of dozen times.

The job is messy, but easy if you have a hoist.  It's a real pain if you have to use jack stands.

Phil:  That's a standard Type 2 boot.

If you want to think out of the box, try searching for dune buggy or sand rail parts and then get what they're using - many of them are running 930 CV joints.  They don't have the transaxle off-set that you do (fore/aft) but they DO have a lot of suspension travel and have developed CV boots that can take those swings.  Places off the top of my head:  Chenoweth, Jimco and Saco, but beware of any EMPI boots.  

Thanks Gordon.  Do you think that Type 2 boot would work on my car?  Sure looks like it has potential.  I have asked my mechanic for one of the old boots so I can do exact measurements.  I'm assuming it has a 100 mm flange but I'm not really sure of anything anymore.  Think my mechanic has been just telling me what he thinks I want to hear and getting my car out of his shop as fast as he can.  Well at least I'm pretty sure the car is ready for my trip to Charlottesville.

Phil:

Just google VW 251598201 and your boot pops up.  It is a standard Type 2 boot.  You probably want one that is slightly longer so that it'll take the constant bending better than a standard one. 

Instead, you can google "dune Buggy CV Boot" and you get a bunch of hits, but a lot of the buggy and sand rail guys run Porsche 930/934 joints and I don't know the difference - Maybe if you call some place like Chenoweth Buggies and tell them what's going on they can recommend a better boot later on.  Just tell them you're running Type 2 CV's and they can take it from there....They know a lot more about them than I ever will.  Worse case, you could run a different boot and flange and may have to attach the two with a HD tie-wrap or something.  Don't laugh - it works.  Some place like Chenoweth, SACO or JIMCO will know all about what works for boots for buggies, just call them and ask for someone who knows rear suspension.

Last I knew, Chenoweth is the company that builds those super-quick/super-quiet sand buggies (Desert Patrol Vehicle) that the Special Forces guys use.  Those guys are known to go smoking across the desert at well over 100mph.  They certainly would know what boots would work.

I'm sure that doing the 930/934 conversion would be pricey.  Seems to me that the boots I posted above would work.  I'm sure there's got to be a T2 bus boot that would fit the bill.  Like these.  Don't know why my mechanic rejected them so fast without even looking at them before putting the EXACT same boot back on.  Over $500 in labor.  Not sure I'll be back.

This is sold by SACO for my application.  Look familiar.

There's a long 7 screen SAMBA thread on T2/181 Thing 100mm CV boots. BLUF - UV/Ozone in air kills the rubber along with cheap rubber formulas.  Grease inside the boot where the accordion folds are (but don't fill boot with grease) to reduce friction. They publish a useful boot "articulation chart" too -

Maximum Angularity for each CV is listed below
Type 1 is 12 degrees  (Bug)
Type 2 is 17 degrees  (Bus/Transporter)
Type 4 is 22 degrees  (Thing - 181)
930 is 25 degrees

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/for...ewtopic.php?t=411283

You can buy new Thing axles with boots you picture for $125 at CIP1.  Replacing boots is very dirty job but replacing axes is may 3 hours total for 2. 

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDe...ductCode=C13-90-6905

Thanks Wolfgang.  My axles are custom.  So, unfortunately, replacing the whole "thing" is not an option.

Here is a 930 complete type 1 conversion kit:

http://www.pacificcustoms.com/ac598230.html

There is a guy in that thread that installed these:

EMPI C13-86-9303K - 100MM OFF ROAD CV JOINT BOOT KIT W/ FLANGE FOR BUS - TYPE-2 CV JOINT

on his thing almost 3 years ago.  I PM'd him asking how they are holding up.  There are pictures of his setup on his Thing.  Axle angle looks steeper than mine.  I hope he responds.

Rusty S posted:

Here is a 930 complete type 1 conversion kit:

http://www.pacificcustoms.com/ac598230.html

Yes and look at the boots that are used for the conversion.  Very similar to the off road boots.  I really think these will work.

Me too.

Question: Are the 930 boot flanges much larger than a type 1 irs boot flanges? If they are close to the same size seems an adaptor would work rather than having to replace the stub axle and the whole assembly. I'm not finding adaptors so I assume the 930 flange is much larger as well as the cv joint.

Yes Rusty there is quite a bit of difference... Here is a link to a website that clearly explains those size differences:

http://www.blindchickenracing....es/cv_joints_101.htm

From what I can tell, moving to a type 2 or type 4 stub and cv assembly may be the best route here. The 930 assembly would require a modified trailing arm bearing carrier.

All this to run a heavier duty CV boot that doesn't leak or sling moly lube all over the underside of your car. I think Bruce should work on an adaptor for us.

Very nice guy from Samba responded to my PM.  He installed these:

EMPI C13-86-9303K - 100MM OFF ROAD CV JOINT BOOT KIT W/ FLANGE FOR BUS - TYPE-2 CV JOINT

3 years ago on his Thing.  He said that the car is a daily driver with over 30,000 miles since installation.  No problems.  

Looks like I have my answer.  So when my current boots wear out in 5000 miles these will be installed.  Thank you to everyone for all the sage advice; as usual.

Phil,

I have an IM and it has type 1 stub axles and CV joints. If you have type 1 CV boots on there now those type 2 boots won't fit. Type 2's are nearly a 1/4" larger and I don't think they will adequately seal on a type 1 flange.

Rusty - Good info at the Blindchickenracing site - specifically T1=94mm, T2/T4=100mm and 930=108mm plus with correspond deeper bearing cages and bearing diameters.  Not sure what is custom on Phil's axles but looks like the Pacific Customs has every option covered.  Easy to see why something heavier duty than a T1 CV joint is desired when you have 3x HP/torque and near 1.5x (?) engine weight.

Well as Phil pointed out our IM's have quite a bit more angle on our CV joints, they wear out faster, and it has been a PITA since I bought the car. I have been thinking about alternative solutions as well. I'm also considering a type 4 engine in the 2.6 liter range so a type 4 CV setup may be a good start for me.

Rusty

I have been very confused about all the VW designations.  

The boots on my car right now are these:   AAA251598201

These fit 1970 Campers to 1991 Vanogans.  So is this Type 2 and Type 4?

This is what is says in on my spec sheet:

VW T-4 Lobro CV joints

It is my understanding that a Type 4 is an early 90's Vanagon.  Also Wolfgang stated above that a Thing is also a Type 4.  So a boot off of a Thing should work on my car.

So it sounds like the CV boots for Type 2 Campers are the same as Type 4 Vanogans and Type 4 Things.  So it seems like if I get a CV boot for a Type 2 it should fit.  This is so confusing.  But I really don't think I've got Type 1 axles and CV joints even though I've got a Type 1 tranny.

I might have to break down and try to call Henry.  

Do all the newer IMs use 914 (or 944) trailing arms and rear disc brakes?  Know Phil has a 914 front suspension/brake (albeit BMW calipers now).