Cylinder cooling tin?

Do you have an external oil cooler? Have you used an actual thermometer to check to see what the actual oil temp is? What type/weight oil are you using? Some of these questions may help others help you. 

The new one is designed for the flat pancake T3 engine.  At one time it was thought they do a better job cooling but believe that has been proven false.  It is not recommended not to use the T3 on an upright cooled T1 engine.

I'd look to see if you have the lower cooling sled tins and maybe the Hoover bit.

I don't think the new tin is recommended for your type one. That tin is for a type three and used to be called "super tin".  Time has shown that it doesn't improve anything on a type one. Definitely use the existing tin. It sounds like you had a sudden change in your engine cooling. This could be because it was hotter. It could mean that your temp gauge or sender are failing too. Drive the car hard on a cold morning and check it then. Remove your gauge and sending unit and suspend your sender in a pot of boiling water to see if your gauge reads 212 f. (you'll need a 12 v battery for a power source) If it checks out pretty close then start looking for other sources of overheating.

Hope this helps...........Bruce

Thanks Bruce. It won't be cold here until December. I'll put the old tin back in.

Wolfgang, No sleds. No heaters, It's HOT here. The engine builder used the mounting holes on the oil pan to hang oil files.

Robert M, Got an external oil cooler. Running Rotella 15w40.

Thanks, Jim

Personally, I wouldn't do anything until you check the real temperature of the oil with a dipstick thermometer.  A candy thermometer from Amazon with a probe roughly the same length as the bottom of your oil dipstick will do, and for $20 or less you can get a digital one from Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=can...p;ref=nb_sb_ss_i_4_6

Bruce had a good suggestion that we can expand upon:  

"Remove your gauge and sending unit and suspend your sender in a pot of boiling water to see if your gauge reads 212 f."

 I would take a slightly different tack:  Remove the sender.  Re-attach the sender wire and add a ground wire from the sender housing to a good ground point on the engine (almost anywhere will do).  

Heat a cup of water in your microwave until it's boiling and then scoot out to the car (don't get any hot water onya!) and place the threaded end of the sender into that cup of water.  (If you're cool you can also put the candy thermometer in there to watch the water temp drop).  Turn on your ignition to activate the gauge and see what it reads (give it a few seconds to stabilize).  

Calibrate your dash gauge with what the candy thermometer tells you or simply note that where the gauge needle is, is probably around 200º F by the time it settles.  THEN you'll know if it is actually getting too hot or not.  Just note where the needle is - It may show 190 when it's really seeing 200.  That difference is important and all you have to remember is the difference and apply it in the future.

While you're messing in the engine bay, make sure there is nothing blocking the fan inlet (John Estes caught a rag in his on a trip to Carlisle one year).

Way better suggestion Gordon !.........Bruce

Frugality is the mother of cheap tricks...

Don't bother messing with the type 3 cooling tins- the original type 1 pieces work better. Remember the fan configuration- on type 1 the air is coming down through the cylinders and heads while with the type 3 the fan is behind the engine and blowing air across. There is a thread on this subject on the Samba (although I can't find it right now) and there is even a VW technical bulletin advising not to install type 3 lower cylinder tins on type 1 engines.

And your engine needs sled tins and either heater boxes or industrial tins to send the spent cooling air out behind the engine so the heat doesn't get re-ingested by the fan and carbs (and drive temps up higher). I think this would be more important especially if you're doing constant slow (parade) driving.  Al

Next thing...

What are you using for  engine compartment seal? Original VW required a channel that was built into the floor of the engine compartment.

I have some foam pipe insulation which will seal well, but it is not fire resistant. I have an A1 Performance header and exhaust system which fits with in 1/2" of engine tin. I know it will burn.

What to do?

I cut 11 Ga. aluminum plate to closely fit the shape of the rear engine tin.   Then I used a '67-'74 Bug engine seal to close the gap.  The aluminum is in three pieces to help with installation/removal.  It overlaps the bottom of the 2" x 2" square tubing frame and is screwed into the frame with self-tapping screws.  It has worked very well and is tight.    https://www.jbugs.com/product/111-705D.html

James

^^^^  That  ^^^^

My installation is similar. Your engine appears to sit below the frame rails. My closure panels are installed from below the frame rails engine shroud is sightly above. This may be the problem. I think I have a solution. It looks good and will keep the hot air out...if

My heat shields are installed under the frame rails as well.  I have one big horse shoe shaped one under the rails that comes up under the engine tins and is sealed with a similar seal as the VW Bug.  

Then, I have another shield on top of the rear portion of the frame rail that seals that area between the rail and the rear inside of the body.  That piece has a kip-up at each end to seal just beyond the tail lights.  The two, together, are pretty effective.

Gordon Nichols posted:

...

Then, I have another shield on top of the rear portion of the frame rail that seals that area between the rail and the rear inside of the body.  That piece has a kip-up at each end to seal just beyond the tail lights.  The two, together, are pretty effective.

Yes Gordon, I forgot to mention that one!  It is important because it sits just above the muffler on a conventional style exhaust system and blocks a lot of heat.

Jim, I made aluminum sled tins that slip inside the 911 shroud and angle to the rear of the car. I had to cut a large hole for the J-tubes that run under the pushrods. Secured the head side with a set of old valve cover bails as I have bolt-on valve covers. Case side has aluminum tabs that attach to 6mm holes in case. Lowered oil temp by 10 degrees F, and cylinder head temp the same 10 degrees. Mine is on a Spyder so no separating top/bottom air. 911 shroud faces forward and tins exit rearward.

I don't know if it would do as much on a Speedster with tins as you already have intake/exhaust separation. But it wasn't expensive to do.

Re the Type 3 cooling tins; I follow this VW mechanic on Youtube, username Mike Fn Garage. He recommends them. He says that they give him great results. About the Service Bulletin by VW his theory is that the factory didn't want to admit a design error in the original design of the tins so as to prevent replacing engines in warranty.

Here's what long time repected parts supplier JBugs says about them -

 Though the tins are an essential part of the cooling system in the Type 3 platform, they provide no additional cooling when used on stock Type 1 engines (found in Bug, Super Beetle, Karman Ghia, and Thing models).

The Type 3 is a totally different engine cooling design.

Impala posted:

Re the Type 3 cooling tins; I follow this VW mechanic on Youtube, username Mike Fn Garage. He recommends them. He says that they give him great results. About the Service Bulletin by VW his theory is that the factory didn't want to admit a design error in the original design of the tins so as to prevent replacing engines in warranty.

Was looking for something else and found this thread. The guys says they give great results- did he put a set on, found the engine still ran with them so his backyard expertise consists of "Yup- they run reeel good!" or does he present data (head, air, oil temps) to substantiate his claim? 

I know I sound like a sceptic, but you know how it is- look hard enough and some idiot on the internet will tell you anything you want. The type 1 cooling system worked on millions (literally MILLIONS) of stock engines and continues to work on I don't know how many thousands of modified engines to this day. There are a few who have claimed good results with using the type 3 pieces (with modifications) in place of the type 1 cylinder bottom and sled tins when the sled tins interfere with an exhaust's primary tubes. The spent cooling air aims straight down and exits right under the engine, though (not out the back of the car like the sled tins do) and the preheated air can then be re-ingested by the engine in slow/stop and go traffic. It's not the perfect solution.

ALB posted:

Impala posted:

Re the Type 3 cooling tins; I follow this VW mechanic on Youtube, username Mike Fn Garage. He recommends them. He says that they give him great results. About the Service Bulletin by VW his theory is that the factory didn't want to admit a design error in the original design of the tins so as to prevent replacing engines in warranty.

Was looking for something else and found this thread. The guys says they give great results- did he put a set on, found the engine still ran with them so his backyard expertise consists of "Yup- they run reeel good!" or does he present data (head, air, oil temps) to substantiate his claim? 

I know I sound like a sceptic, but you know how it is- look hard enough and some idiot on the internet will tell you anything you want. The type 1 cooling system worked on millions (literally MILLIONS) of stock engines and continues to work on I don't know how many thousands of modified engines to this day. There are a few who have claimed good results with using the type 3 pieces (with modifications) in place of the type 1 cylinder bottom and sled tins when the sled tins interfere with an exhaust's primary tubes. The spent cooling air aims straight down and exits right under the engine, though (not out the back of the car like the sled tins do) and the preheated air can then be re-ingested by the engine in slow/stop and go traffic. It's not the perfect solution.

Great info there. Like I said I don’t know the guy personally but it seems he has many years’ experience with VWs and seems to know what he’s doing. You can check it out for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/user/farnhamassoc

James posted:

I cut 11 Ga. aluminum plate to closely fit the shape of the rear engine tin.   Then I used a '67-'74 Bug engine seal to close the gap.  The aluminum is in three pieces to help with installation/removal.  It overlaps the bottom of the 2" x 2" square tubing frame and is screwed into the frame with self-tapping screws.  It has worked very well and is tight.    https://www.jbugs.com/product/111-705D.html

James

Hi

Do you have any pics of the tin from under the engine?

i need to replace my tin, my mechanic removed the engine and destroyed the tin now the car is overheating and I can’t drive the car.

can you use stainless steel instead of aluminium?

Cheers

aircooled posted:

I don't think the new tin is recommended for your type one. That tin is for a type three and used to be called "super tin".  Time has shown that it doesn't improve anything on a type one. Definitely use the existing tin. It sounds like you had a sudden change in your engine cooling. This could be because it was hotter. It could mean that your temp gauge or sender are failing too. Drive the car hard on a cold morning and check it then. Remove your gauge and sending unit and suspend your sender in a pot of boiling water to see if your gauge reads 212 f. (you'll need a 12 v battery for a power source) If it checks out pretty close then start looking for other sources of overheating.

Hope this helps...........Bruce

Hi Bruce

i also have issues with my engine tin and the engine is constantly overheating.

can you buy a complete engine tin set or does it need to be custom made?

i have a Type 1 engine 

Cheers

Yes you can. Aluminum is easier to work with but stainless will work too.. Not a difficult job either..........Bruce

I used common HVAC galvanized sheetmetal when I made my heat shields.  I have a set of full-size templates, but they were copied for a CMC and you have an intermeccanica, do you not?  I'm not sure if they are the same.

Regardless, I first made a paper template from heavy wrapping paper and traced it out onto the HVAC air duct metal and cut it out.  The CMC has a square, horse shoe shaped frame member around the engine so I just screwed it right to that.  You can use a VW bus "H" gasket between the heat shields and the engine specific tins to seal up that  gap, too.  Seems pretty effective for the past 20 years or so.

Hope this helps.

@Highlander356 wrote- "Great info there. Like I said I don’t know the guy personally but it seems he has many years’ experience with VWs and seems to know what he’s doing. You can check it out for yourself:"

Couldn't find the video about using type 3 cooling tin. I did watch his 15 minute video about camshafts (it was one of his shorter videos) and from what I saw I wouldn't trust or believe anything he said. There wasn't 1 bit of solid information in the whole video. All I see is a guy posting videos to get enough subscribers to make money off of Youtube.

@Jim Gilbert - Madison, Mississippi wrote- "I think I may have a cooling issue with my car. I have a 2110 engine with a 911 shroud.  I use the Speedster for kids football and home coming parades. That's where the issue first reared it's ugly head."

I'm guessing that at parade speeds the engine is re-ingesting a lot of spent cooling air. The air is coming down through the cylinders, hitting the ground and hanging out around the engine where it just gets sucked back in to the fan and carbs again (and again and...). The air needs to be directed around the lower parts of the cylinders/heads to cool them properly and then directed out the back so at least the bulk of it doesn't end up back in the engine compartment. I would try modifying sled tins to attach to the 911 shroud. A remote thermometer in the engine compartment will tell you how high above the temperature outside the car and if your efforts are doing any good. 

If the parade thing is really important, maybe a fan of some sort on the firewall bringing in fresh air from forward of the engine compartment? I believe there are 12 volt bilge pump fans that are fairly compact and move a lot of air.

Hope this helps. Al

I'm cross-posting this from my Spyder build thread in hopes of generating some knowledge and advice.

Has anyone here incorporated a Beetle thermostat and flaps into their cooling system?

It's a serious question that arises naturally from my rear underpan effort. Since we're doing the full "hot-side-hot-cool-side-cool" treatment the question arises first of what to do about the oil cooler air (ducted out the back of the Raby DTM), which I've solved pretty much, and second what to do for warm-up since, if this all works as designed, I'll have a car that ducts virtually all the hot cylinder air and exhaust pipe heat down and out and behind the vehicle, leaving little or none to recirculate through the fan.

—all of which should be a very good thing ... once the cylinder heads get to 250 F and the oil temp reaches 180 or so.

But when might that happen??

So, yes. I'm pondering ideas and studying old Beetle thermostats and flaps.

No one here uses them, or anything like them, on anything? 

I did this many years ago; seems to help; whenever we change the oil it is absolutely free of particles. As Gene Berg’s studies said he experienced 12% less wear on the motors with the thermostat and flap system as compared to those without in the warm climate of South Ca. I’ve always lived in tropical places and use conventional 40W oil.

In my case I use an OEM fan and engine tin; in your case with a DTM system everything might vary.

"I'll have a car that ducts virtually all the hot cylinder air and exhaust pipe heat down and out and behind the vehicle, leaving little or none to recirculate through the fan."

Well, that's what I have, too, and it seems to work.

I have the VW thermostat bellows under the 1-2 heads linked to the air vanes inside of the (1971-ish, flat-top) shroud.  The air coming from the oil cooling tower exits out the back of the engine, below the heat shields, down and then caught in the air stream.  The engine tins direct the hot air down and then to the rear and out the back (I have the sled tins, too).

My engine compartment is completely sealed to insulate the exhaust heat from the fan inlet/carbs.  I also have an oil flow switch that shuts off oil flow to the external cooler under 180F coming from the filter.

All that said, the time it takes to get to 180F depends greatly on the outside ambient temp.  70+F ambient and it warms up in about ten minutes of neighborhood driving.  Take it on a turnpike and it'll rise up to 200-ish and sit there with the external cooler fan running all the time.

Outside temps below 40F means it'll take twice that long to warm up (20-30 minutes) and turnpike speeds bring it up to 190-ish and it sits there.  The external cooler fan may or may not come on, depending on how low the outside temp is.

Did I answer your question?

Gordon Nichols posted:

 

All that said, the time it takes to get to 180F depends greatly on the outside ambient temp.  70+F ambient and it warms up in about ten minutes of neighborhood driving.  Take it on a turnpike and it'll rise up to 200-ish and sit there with the external cooler fan running all the time.

I answered on the Spyder thread, but this statement ( highlighted) confirms my own "seat of the pants" observations.

I know all about what Gene Berg said about pretty much everything, and I don't doubt that he was right-- with a perfectly functioning thermostat/flap set-up, I'll bet the engine last longer.

How much longer is just pure speculation on Gene's part. 12%? 25%? 100%? Gene didn't do a double blind test to come up with that number. He either climbed up Mt. Baldy and had the Commandments of the Type 1 handed to him from the God of Air-Cooled Engines himself, or he just "guestimated". I'm going with the latter, and yet everything the man said is quoted chapter and verse. Regardless, most of what he recommended (super-low CR, this, etc.) was based on the idea of getting 100k mi out of a build, very often at the expense of power and fun.

Nobody cares about that anymore, because VWs aren't anybody's daily driver (Jim Ignacio excluded). I've got the full-meal-Gene Berg approved-cooling-deal on my bus 2110, and it's a whole lot of this-'n-that for something with a very limited effect (as Gordon notes above). It's nowhere near like having a water-cooled car with a thermostat. My oil is just fine on my DTM 2276.

I'd also note that if a flaps-n'-stats engine ever approached 100k mi with all of the Rube Goldberg apparatus installed, something would hang up or break in that amount of time. If the flaps stick closed, any benefit you might have seen is out the window.

I know the Sainted German Engineers designed this, and that Gene Berg approved it, but perhaps the net/net might not be as awesome as we've all been led to believe. I'll use it all on a vehicle I will try to drive in the winter, and would not consider it for something without even a top. It's worth noting that Porsche did away with all that nonsense with the air-cooled 911, and those engines last nearly forever.

That's my opinion, and my opinion and a dollar will buy you a coffee at most McDonalds in my part of the world.

Yeah, totally agreed Stan. All that Gene Berg stuff at this point in time should be considered anecdotal. Semi-hemi heads and 7.5:1 compression? Please stop...

And going back to what Jim Gilbert is asking, yes, sled tins of your own making can help with a 911 shrouded type1. 10 degrees less on CHT and peak oil temp.

And please stop with the type3 cool tins. They are NOT going to help an upright-cooled motor.

I wanted to add that I believe that the slight extra back pressure on the fan from my sled tins helped cool the heads and cylinders, as well as stopping the recirculating air.

Talking about metal work and engine tin.

My mechanic a ‘so - called air cooled VW/Porsche expert’, removed my engine to place a new clutch kit and a new alternator.

He cut the tin / metal in the engine and didn’t even replace it. I have been driving the vehicle for 12 months with recirculated air. No wonder the engine is completely destroyed.

You should see the pictures of the metal / tin work, this mechanic needs to be reported to some Global VW / Porsche safety authority department.

Highlander356 posted:

Talking about metal work and engine tin.

My mechanic a ‘so - called air cooled VW/Porsche expert’, removed my engine to place a new clutch kit and a new alternator.

He cut the tin / metal in the engine and didn’t even replace it. I have been driving the vehicle for 12 months with recirculated air. No wonder the engine is completely destroyed.

You should see the pictures of the metal / tin work, this mechanic needs to be reported to some Global VW / Porsche safety authority department.

 

Let's see pics...

ALB posted:

Highlander356 posted:

Talking about metal work and engine tin.

My mechanic a ‘so - called air cooled VW/Porsche expert’, removed my engine to place a new clutch kit and a new alternator.

He cut the tin / metal in the engine and didn’t even replace it. I have been driving the vehicle for 12 months with recirculated air. No wonder the engine is completely destroyed.

You should see the pictures of the metal / tin work, this mechanic needs to be reported to some Global VW / Porsche safety authority department.

 

Let's see pics...

Check this out...!

From a ‘so-called VW/Porsche’ expert.

Sorry, @Highlander356 (first name?), I don't see any 'damage'- could you highlight it? All I see is slightly flattened shroud to heater box tubes in the 3rd and nothing obvious in the 1st or 2nd. Al

PS- I noticed your car does have a camber compensator (the leaf spring thingy that keeps the axles from tucking too far in)- did you put that on?

ALB posted:

Sorry, @Highlander356 (first name?), I don't see any 'damage'- could you highlight it? All I see is slightly flattened shroud to heater box tubes in the 3rd and nothing obvious in the 1st or 2nd. Al

PS- I noticed your car does have a camber compensator (the leaf spring thingy that keeps the axles from tucking too far in)- did you put that on?

Hi Al

what are you ‘sorry’ about?

You can run a ruler in between the metal.

The metal pieces are not welded together.

This area needs to be completely air tight to avoid air recirculation.

Anyway Porsche have already assessed it and deemed the vehicle unsafe to drive.

It looks like the fiberglass surround pieces on the bottom(lower surround) were cut away (maybe to remove the engine) and a strip of rubber was used up top to appropriate a seal?  Many here use the '72 up VW H shaped bus seal.  It can span a gap of near an inch.

All I know is that Porsche Australia have deemed the vehicle unsafe to drive die to the negligence caused by my mechanic.

I would never bring a replica to any Porsche dealer. It's not a Porsche.

I agree with Danny- why did you take it to a Porsche dealer?