Damn car is unsafe at cornering anything over 35mph

If I take a slow bend at the above mentioned speed, my car starts rocking around corners, this feels downright scarey and makes me nervous to drive it any faster than that. We have a 2.0 914 motor going in and this is making me even more nervous.

I've bought 4 gas loaded gabriel shocks that I plan on putting in over the weekend, cause I do think that mine are well worn, but is there anything else that I should be looking at?

stock 1500 at the moment, drums all round, stock front beam, straight rear beam.

Any advice?

Get under the car and take a good look at the front and rear suspension. Look for any leaking, broken or damaged boots on the tie rods and ball joints. If anything looks suspicious, replace it. Look for loose nuts on the front steering knuckles. Check for loose lug nuts and tire pressure too. Check the cheap stuff first. I've learned the hard way.

Hi Gary!
Give this site a read. A member turned me on to it last year.
Good Luck!
http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles/handling.htm

Gary - Obviously, your steering is on the wrong side! Looking at your pictures - looks like the front end is very high. Not sure if that would cause rocking but looks like its on tippy-toes. Ya might try cutting couple leaves out of one of the spring packs to lower (since I suspect adjusters, dropped spindles and adjustible beams are rare there). Someone here within last couple weeks mentioned doing that - do a search. After doing that and putting on new shocks - I'd get a good 4 wheel alignment. Has it sat on those tires along time - could they be out of round/bad belts in them?

Thanks for all of the advice guys, I'm going to give it a complete going over tomorrow and see if I can see anything.

I think that the shocks have a big thing to do with it as I'm embarressed to say, but it seems that the ones one the car are as old as the car itself which would put it at about 10 years plus.

I'll check the tie rod ends/ steering box, link & king pins and alignment as well, cheap stuff first, I like the way you think.

As for the stamce, yup, the nose is very high, We're going to be removing a spring plate or two to get the nose down a bit anyway, cause at the moment it's about 2 inches too high, the back sits just right.

The tyres are pretty much brand new and balancing has recently been done on them. I guess it's a case of eliminating stuff one by one.

Thansk again.

Gary--I'm surprised no one mentioned front stabilizer bars and rear camber compensators---I believe I read about this in that C B Perf. tech article though.

Your car seems worse than mine was but on a trip up to Mt. Nebo last summer I got a little nervous about the handling of my VS especially on fast right turns ---very unstable and seemed like something very exciting was about to happen. Hard to describe but if it started to roll over I wouldn't have been too surprised.

Right after that trip I got great info from the great folks on this site about the stab. bars and camber compensators and installed both on my car.

Tne difference is incredable and it rides like it was on rails. It always did ride smoothly and steered great going straight and the additions didn't change that a bit. Now it's as fun to drive in quick turns as it always was going straight. I am a poor mechanic (An understatement) but I was able to get these items on and I believe
installed correctly. If you want, I'll dig out the sources, model numbers and prices for you. ---Jack

Hello Gary, looks certainly that your front end it TOO high. It is probably so high you are not using the upper and lower torsion bars on the front beam. You are probably only using the shocks. You NEED to double check this out. Remove the shocks, they should be about 17" from top of shock to middle of the base hole. Top of shock I mean the shock and not the thread. --[ 17" ]0

The rear looks OK.

If you are too high in the front, the torsion arms that are connected to the leaves in the front beam is not being used. Not a good thing at all.

Start with the basics. jack the car in the front to see if the lower balljoints drop out of the arms much indecating alota ware
Check the tie rods. Having it alined is a must after you replace any worn parts

Also make sure you have the lower camber shims on the beam the help prevent squirrley handling But they will also rase the car even more Id bet the old shocks are stuck up . Gas shoch are bad to do that . They are fine on the rear because you have much more weight there.

I strongly advise a old set of oil shocks on the front The front ends are so very light it takes very little shock strength on the front of these cars. I drilled a pin hole in a new set of gas shocks and drained the gas out replaced it with jack oil the welded up the pin holes. They were perfect. But a old set off a wreck will surprize you just as happly.

If the frontend is still high after you remove the shocks Your eather going to have to do a spring remove as I did or install the adjusters as i did. I did both.

A quick test on front height issue - would be to add couple hundred pounds of weight to nose temporarily. A full gas tank plus few bags of sand/gravel/krugerrands would do it.

Okay

I did the shocks this weekend and the arse-end feels 100% better, I did the gas shocks up front, but I think that this is a bit too much as the nose is too light and it's actually become very stuff and very unforgiving.

I think that I'm going to put back on the old oil shocks up front as they were still okay and the oil shocks should make the front a bit better. So I'm going to play around with that route first and see if I get any joy out of it.

Next will be the removal of a spring plate up front as this won't cost me much to do, thenafter, I'll look at the tie rods ends.

The handling of the car is MUCH better and I think that I'm making great progress so far, When I hit a corner the back doesn't feel like it wants to get away from you all of the time. The nose still feels very happy and I know that the ride height has a lot to do with it.

Jack - That would be awesome any info that you can supply would be great.

Mike - Yup, I know it's too high, way too high, I guess about 2 inces at LEAST. Ps, I have link & king pins......no ball joints here, the link & kingpins are almost new and hardly any wear. The Tie rods are next on my list after the spring plate and I'm pretty much doing stuff as per my wallet is allowing me.

Barry - I actually have my old set that I just pushed aside that I want to try it with, thank's for the advice. We're looking at a spring removal anyway as a start.

Wolfgang - krugerrands would be the better option, we use them as driveway covering this side of the globe..........lol.

The springs you remove. Please use them to make 3 inch fill in's at the center and the ends, with electic tape on the fillers on both ends if yo make the center filler longer it will let you slide the springs back ans forth enough to tape 1x1/2 the ends to alow for the arms,,

Tricky but very doable and well worth the trouble you have to drop just about as much as I did on my first time . I wound up pulling 3 thin springs. 2 from the bottomo ne a one from the top one.

You dont have adjusters so try pulling one of the thin spring plates from each tube on your first atempt Im betting you may hit the Height mark on the first shot. I have adjusters and I raised it back a schose You dont have that luxery. So try just one from each.

Shinmming the springs back square I know is a pain and a greasy mess But it insures the set screws stay locked like factory.

^^^^WOW

That's actually some ruddy good advice there.......

Is this job beyond a DIY'er with above average knowledge?

Managed to get my hands on a select a drop for the front beam. This will be my first stage as I'm not really too keen about making the front softer by removing the spring plate/s.

So this route first and thereafter will be the sway bar.....

To be honest those are horrid --- used in very early days of California dune buggies - mainly to greatly raise the front end. They will give you a ROCK HARD drive with no give. It's 2 U shaped brackets you weld to a cut front beam with huge bolts and nuts to adjust height, right? I don't even see them advertised in the states much anymore. Does anyone have one on their Speedie? Perhaps they can speak directly to it.

I would not worry about softer springing --- your Speedie is far lighter - especially in front end than the springs were designed for. If you don't like messing with the torsion springs - then either go for dropped spindles (and disc brakes at same time) or one adjuster in bottom tube (2 are better though). With removing the springs - if you don't like it - you can always find another spring pack to restore it. With the select-a-drop you have pretty much destroyed the entire front beam. I just think they are really crude.

Anyone can do it!! If I can. Pay atention to details as you take it apart. AN TAKE NOTES!!!

You need a small grinder or flange cutter/grinder to cut your shimms,,,And a roll of electial tape.

TAKE YOUR TIME. The only thing to watch is the set screw locations before you take the springs out of the tubes take notes as to the set screw hole locations and which way they are pointing So you put rhem back in Right the first time.

Drop spindle will lower the car But this will improve the ride a bunch.

I'd sell them to a standard beelte owner.

Realy its not hard , You just need to be careful not to slip a shim when you start putting it together. Tape them Scutters good. When a ssembled the set screws will lock it all in place Tight.

On my new widwe beam I just spot welded them at the tip of the springs and didnt even use any tape. I don't see you couldn,t braze them eather If you have any of those tools

oi vey..........lol.

I got a slap on the wrist from my makkie buddy who said rather take out a spring plate first and then if I'm not happy then put another one back in than cut my beam.

*shame*

I have a spare beam at home that I got last night that I want to take apart first to see how everything works and take a tonne of pictures with my cam and then strip it.

Thanks for all of the advice.............much appreciated. I'll post pictures of the final product.

Ever considered dropped spindles?

I have had a couple of bugs on 'sway away' weld in adjustors - the things you weld in in the middle of the beam and it does make the front end pretty stiff.

I think that with sway aways, the car acts as if the suspension has already been partially compressed.

Anyway, I always promised myself that if I did another lowered VW I would use dropped spindles. They give you the lower center of gravity (and cool look) while retaining the normal spring rate and motion. You still have to cut down the bumpstops though. Whether this travel would be too great for your application may be a consideration, but it's a damn site easier swapping the spindles over than taking out the beam and cutting it!

Oh and if you haven't already, make sure you have an anti roll bar fitted!

On these cars stock thickness in the sway bar is fine don't blow tons of money for 5/8 or 3/4. Its just a waist of mony ona pan based car..

I'd love dropped spindles, but when they land here, I'll be looking at upwards of about $400 each........

I didn't realize that Sway-a-way still made adjusters under their name. I tried to describe the ones I was familiar with - which looked to be garage fabricated - the old ones were the one's I dislike. Their new ones are fine to used (I have them on my "puma beam" - see link attached to what the new one look like.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=203364

Barry, you're a genius!
Gary, if I could add only one thing, it's a helpful tidbit I learned while Sartwell was doing my car's front end.
When you take the spring blades out of the tubes, have a few Zip-Ties on hand. As you slide them out, zip them together to keep the shape. You can tighten the ties incrementally as you take out whatever blades you need to remove.

Im not Cory But thanks , I just try harder to get it right.

By the way!!

If you have some time to kill I got a experiment Id like you to try I think I have fixed the magnet problem but dont have time to try it. . Want to try and build a magnetic Radial engine?? It's only a idea right now But this should eliminate the combing action that gauled the magnets in my first experement

I have not time or money to spare riht now But i be willing to tell you everthing you would need to know to build a nice 5.7 or 9 cylinder radial, verson of it. Are you interested?

I'd probably be able to devote some resources to that in late spring or early summer, Barry. Sounds like fun -- we'll see how it goes!

Ok I will start looking for salvage part sources, because a true radial engine kit is over 5 or 6 grand. No way

I beleive a prototype should a least be 60 hp. has to be a cheaper way to make a needle bearing crank and the case will have to be billit i just hapen to have some 1 inch billit disc that could be used for case halfs a 10 inch alumiun thich wall pipe secton woulk make a great case this will worh so may as well make it durable if you decide to couple it to a generator. the magnets will be the worse part and I would have to buy them 14 3+1/2 or so magnets thats 85.5mm 7 with wrist pin drills and slots for the connecting rods can be ordered premade the othr 7 will have 1/2 threaded bore for the mounting bolts we could use old vw jugs with the fins removed for cuide bores/clyinders . th case will have oil in it andn will have o have a dasher there will be no oil pump. The magnet pole will be aposed so it will tend to want to rotate only in one direction.
Do you get a idea of the concept yeat or do I need to email you a detaile drawing in a few days.?? Im goimg to stop here and revert back to he beam set up POST>>>this is just little to much of a hijack and I do apoligize. Gary

Cory I will try to cove the bigger expenditures. This may be more than alittle experiment but Im now conficent in it enough to risk it. again.

No stress......it's all good.......the more people helped, the better..lol.

Their are bluprints avalible on how to build a radial and plenty suppliers

Gary--OK here's the info--my car is a Vintage Speedster with a swing axle.

#1 I bought and installed the Empi front Stabilizer bar item # 9600. It fit perfectly without cutting or welding---just bolted right on.

#2 I bought and installed a C. B. Performance "CB Camber Compensator"
Best $54.95 I ever spent! It too bolted right on in about 10 minutes.

Both of these items have made my VS handle like it was on rails with still having the wonderful steerring and smooth ride. There is zerl leaning in turns, the rear wheels don't tuck under in a turn---this is an extremely dangerous thing as rear wheel tuck can make you roll over.

If you are looking to help more than handling get a J.C. Whitney 3rd brake light catalog # 1230232 for $14.99 and some 3M two sided tape--the "outside" stuff to stick it to the top of the grill. Gtreat light--very bright and might save your life.

Next item, also from J.C. Whitney--item # 888315, the "Bad Boy Air Horn" for $45.99. Don't get the extra horn button kit --you won't need it. The new horn simply replaces the stock one with the two same wires and same mounting. It is obcenely loud--very satisfying I might add.

That's my 2 cents. Still a newbie but gettin there --"I'm just
sayin'"

Wouldn'yt it be a wonderful thing to see a list of great things you can add to a VS--like these things with Mfg, item #s and prices?

Good luck--I will add that I was able to find and install the above thanks to the super folks on this site!---Jack

hey, jack what size front bar was that from empi,and do you have neg camber in rear. my vs came set with about 1 and 1/2 degree, neg witch usually works pretty good. thewheels will go in then not out which causes, a toe change ,not good. also jack is the brackets above the front beam a adjustment for the height of the body in front. i have a brand new car, have not driven yet. any help you can give would be appreaciated. thanks bill

Anybody know if these suspension upgrades make much of a difference on a VS like mine (wide body/10 inch tires). How fast or hard do I need to drive to see if my car suffers from any of the terms mentioned in this post?


Thanks

Marty

William and Marty--when I knew I had better fix the handling of my VS was last summer when I drove it to Mt Nebo---about 2 hours away ---there were many twisty roads and I could tell that going sorta fast--really just the speed limit around the turns that something was gonna come loose. There was just a real "squirrley" feel to the way it handled. A loose feeling like something not fun was getting ready to happen. (Sorry I can't explain it better.) I have since learned that a right turn will make the left rear wheel tuck in at the bottom of the tire---opposite for a left turn. Too much tuck and speed will cause a car to roll.

I recently saw a clip on The Samba VW site where Bugs were racing and at a certain left turn of the race track about one out of every 5 cars would roll because of wheel tuck. I can't remember exactly where I saw it---do a search.Anyway that showed me what was happening to my car going to Mt Nebo.

I don't knos what my rear is "set" at--it's how it came from VS. All I know is that the camber compensator works like magic.

Te front stabilizer bar is quite thick---Google Empi to see the specs. I'm sure I got one that's about as fat as any used for a Bug though. I hope this helps---Jack

William -

I have a non-flared VS swing axle and installed EMPI 7/8" sway bars front & rear (with help from Robert 'Bobsled' Brown'). EMPI has both 7/8" or 3/4" bars available depending on your application (swing axle or IRS). I probably could have done with the 3/4" bars because I don't drive my car that hard (I'm a cruiser, not a racer), but what the heck. They are in the neighborhood of $80/each.

Anyway, they made a night/day difference in my car's cornering. Here are some pics from my install.

P.S. - you'll notice that the rear sway bar requires drilling into the transmision horn for sway bar brackets. When drilling be careful not to damage the fuel line that runs through the left side trans horn. Otherwise, both are very simple to install.

The rear sway is the one thats doing all the work Thats where all the weight is. The one on my D is 1 inch and the front is only 1/2
Tell me what happens if you hit a deep pot hole . And I can tell you why. Been there done that.


The front one is over kill. and can cause traction skip. when you hit a good pot hole.

The rear one is the one you want nice and beafy theirs enough weight there for it to work right. I made the rear from a 83 malibu front sway it had to be heated and bent and then the ends flatend for the bushings. but Im very well pleased with it NO one offers a 1 inch for the rear as far as I Know.... So I made one.

Gary - couple folks have chimed in on solution for rear wheel tuckin/lift. If yours is a pre '67 chassis with swing axels you would need a camber compensator --- if the later IRS (4 CVC joints) then it would be a rear sway (or anti-sway bar). The suspension used varies by year based on country of manufacture and where it was designated for --- so might be different where you are. If wheels were stock as 4 bolt then its probably IRS.

I have Beck with a tube frame and swing-axles in the rear. The only changes I have made to the base suspension are the addition of a rear camber compensator, and wider, lower profile tires (185/60s). I have experienced no body roll of any sort, and a can only imagine that more front roll stiffness would increase understeer in an already-too-light front end. One of the best things I've done is get a good 4-wheel alignment. Little changes make big differences.

Thanks for the sum up wolfgang, it was a lot to take in.

Pre 67 chassis on my ride.

Will be looking into camber compensators this week. Just spent over $300 yesterday, so now I have to wait a bit.