Deceleration Growl

I know this doesn't help, but- I was told a long time ago that VW transaxles are not designed to handle the thrust forces of hard deceleration that are created by substantially more powerful engines, and even in a freshly rebuilt trans to expect it to make more noise in this mode. The transaxle in it's current configuration was originally engineered to cope with 40hp, and really hasn't changed all that much since 1961. Even a 1776 with stock dual port heads, a mild cam, dual carbs and a header will produce over 80 hp, over power the transaxles capabilities and it's something we just have to live with. Even if all parts are well within spec and everything is set up properly  there is no way (short of a complete redesign) to do anything about this. Al

I did found my VW tranny with 3:44 final drive to act somewhat similar if I was trying to downshift from a very high RPM. I found it more pleasant noise wise if I did not decelerate harshly by downshifting.  50 year old tech is not like a new tranny design even the shift gates are exterior on an A Cooled units. type I, 901, 915  Ray

My 901 transmission did the same. I remember my first drive with the top up.  It was quite noisy on deceleration, and I thought there was a major problem.  That was with a 2332 c.c. engine.

From then on, I drove top down for the next three years, and enjoyed the car.

Bob: IM S6 posted:

My 901 transmission did the same. I remember my first drive with the top up.  It was quite noisy on deceleration, and I thought there was a major problem.  That was with a 2332 c.c. engine.

From then on, I drove top down for the next three years, and enjoyed the car.

Word.  That's the solution :-) 

On the other hand, I ignored a louder than normal trans and it stranded me in Carlisle year before last.

 

On the other hand, I ignored a louder than normal trans and it stranded me in Carlisle year before last.

What was the defect found in your transmission, Tom ?

Pardon my ignorance, but as I understand it the nose cone bearing failed and parts washed through the trans.

> On Feb 5, 2016, at 10:22 AM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:
>

Bob: IM S6 posted:

...I remember my first drive with the top up.  It was quite noisy on deceleration, and I thought there was a major problem.  That was with a 2332 c.c. engine.

From then on, I drove top down for the next three years, and enjoyed the car.

Now there's a man who knows how to work with what he has!

There are two bearings nestled at the back of the nose cone, the mainshaft bearing and the countershaft bearing.  Most of the time, the mainshaft bearing gets destroyed by the higher-than-normal load placed on it by larger engines, and the countershaft bearing gets destroyed by slightly insufficient oiling inside of the case.  Here's one with a blown mainsheet bearing, the big one in the center with the retainer chewed up:

But that one is pretty oily so here's another, more appropriate, shot, of a transaxle case like ours.  Mainshaft at the bottom, countershaft at the top and those fingers on the right get pushed/pulled in or out by the gearshift lever to select 1-4 and reverse (reverse at the bottom)

Typically, if it growls in 2-3'd it has a countershaft bearing going south.  If it growls in 4th then it's probably a mainshaft bearing.  These were made by SKA or FAG (Germany) in the old days, then FAG built a bearing facility in Brazil and supplied VW bearings from there, and now build a lot of stuff in Asia and China.

My current transaxle has these two bearings (both SKA) and it is sill a tiny bit noisy during deceleration, especially in third, but totally acceptable in 4th.  I would think that acceptable bearings might be found at Weddel(?) or can be sourced from reputable bearing suppliers (be specific and ask for Swedish or German parts).   Happily, they can also be replaced without opening the entire case - just remove the nosecone and use a bearing puller with pluckers - like a bolt with 2/3'rds of the hex head ground off into a hook - to pull them out.  An easy swap.

Lots of rear cockpit sound proofing makes a HUGE difference in discernible transaxle noise, because most of the transaxle noise is generated in the very front of the tranny case, right under the rear seat area, so you kind of have to expect some noise from there.

 

 

Cheap check is to warm trans up and then drain it (ensure you can also get fill hex bolt out before draining).  Then look in the fluid for shiny silver or gold (brass) metal particles.  You might even find a bigger gear tooth (not good).  The drain bolt may have a magnet on it - to trap metal bits).  Refill with new appropriate gear oil.  I have found this works to quieten noisy gears.  

WOLFGANG posted:

Cheap check is to warm trans up and then drain it (ensure you can also get fill hex bolt out before draining).  Then look in the fluid for shiny silver or gold (brass) metal particles.  You might even find a bigger gear tooth (not good).  The drain bolt may have a magnet on it - to trap metal bits).  Refill with new appropriate gear oil.  I have found this works to quieten noisy gears.  

Or you could just let it sit in the garage.  Trans stays wisper quiet ;-)

Aloha Wolfgang: Thanks for the suggestion, I will give it a try.

On Friday, February 5, 2016 7:28 AM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:


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| Subject: Deceleration Growl Reply By: WOLFGANG In: Speedsters / Technical General | |

Cheap check is to warm trans up and then drain it (ensure you can also get fill hex bolt out before draining).  Then look in the fluid for shiny silver or gold (brass) metal particles.  You might even find a bigger gear tooth (not good).  The drain bolt may have a magnet on it - to trap metal bits).  Refill with new appropriate gear oil.  I have found this works to quieten noisy gears.     View This Reply
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Mr. Blankenship:  I'm sure some find suggestions like yours useful.

On Friday, February 5, 2016 7:31 AM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:


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| Subject: Deceleration Growl Reply By: Tom Blankinship In: Speedsters / Technical General | |


WOLFGANG posted:Cheap check is to warm trans up and then drain it (ensure you can also get fill hex bolt out before draining).  Then look in the fluid for shiny silver or gold (brass) metal particles.  You might even find a bigger gear tooth (not good).  The drain bolt may have a magnet on it - to trap metal bits).  Refill with new appropriate gear oil.  I have found this works to quieten noisy gears.  
Or you could just let it sit in the garage.  Trans stays wisper quiet ;-)   View This Reply
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Aloha Gordon:  Thanks your for time in putting together the visuals.  Is it your best guess that a 2160 is large enough to cause noisy 4th gear deceleration?

On Friday, February 5, 2016 6:38 AM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:


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| Subject: Deceleration Growl Reply By: Gordon Nichols In: Speedsters / Technical General | |

There are two bearings nestled at the back of the nose cone, the mainshaft bearing and the countershaft bearing.  Most of the time, the mainshaft bearing gets destroyed by the higher-than-normal load placed on it by larger engines, and the countershaft bearing gets destroyed by slightly insufficient oiling inside of the case.  Here's one with a blown mainsheet bearing, the big one in the center with the retainer chewed up:But that one is pretty oily so here's another, more appropriate, shot, of a transaxle case like ours.  Mainshaft at the bottom, countershaft at the top and those fingers on the right get pushed/pulled in or out by the gearshift lever to select 1-4 and reverse (reverse at the bottom)Typically, if it growls in 2-3'd it has a countershaft bearing going south.  If it growls in 4th then it's probably a mainshaft bearing.  These were made by SKA or FAG (Germany) in the old days, then FAG built a bearing facility in Brazil and supplied VW bearings from there, and now build a lot of stuff in Asia and China.My current transaxle has these two bearings (both SKA) and it is sill a tiny bit noisy during deceleration, especially i third, but totally acceptable in 4th.  Lots of sound proofing makes a HUGE difference in discernible transaxle noise, because most of the transaxle noise is generated in the very front of the tranny case, right under the rear seat area, so you kind of have to expect some noise from there.     View This Reply
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Aloha ALB: Thanks for the post.

On Friday, February 5, 2016 6:17 AM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:


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| Subject: Deceleration Growl Reply By: ALB In: Speedsters / Technical General | |


Bob: IM S6 posted:...I remember my first drive with the top up.  It was quite noisy on deceleration, and I thought there was a major problem.  That was with a 2332 c.c. engine.From then on, I drove top down for the next three years, and enjoyed the car.
Now there's a man who knows how to work with what he has!   View This Reply
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Aloha Caretech-IM:  Thanks for post.

On Friday, February 5, 2016 4:20 AM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:


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| Subject: Deceleration Growl Reply By: Caretech-IM In: Speedsters / Technical General | |

I did found my VW tranny with 3:44 final drive to act somewhat similar if I was trying to downshift from a very high RPM. I found it more pleasant noise wise if I did not decelerate harshly by downshifting.  50 year old tech is not like a new tranny design even the shift gates are exterior on A Cooled units. type I, 901, 915  Ray   View This Reply
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hawaiiantub posted:

Mr. Blankenship:  I'm sure some find suggestions like yours useful.

On Friday, February 5, 2016 7:31 AM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:


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| Subject: Deceleration Growl Reply By: Tom Blankinship In: Speedsters / Technical General | |


WOLFGANG posted:Cheap check is to warm trans up and then drain it (ensure you can also get fill hex bolt out before draining).  Then look in the fluid for shiny silver or gold (brass) metal particles.  You might even find a bigger gear tooth (not good).  The drain bolt may have a magnet on it - to trap metal bits).  Refill with new appropriate gear oil.  I have found this works to quieten noisy gears.  
Or you could just let it sit in the garage.  Trans stays wisper quiet ;-)   View This Reply
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No "e" in Blankinship :-).  Inside SOC joke directed at Wolfgang.  His Speedster has been sitting unfinished for something like 20 years.

WOLFGANG posted:

Cheap check is to warm trans up and then drain it (ensure you can also get fill hex bolt out before draining).  Then look in the fluid for shiny silver or gold (brass) metal particles.  You might even find a bigger gear tooth (not good).  The drain bolt may have a magnet on it - to trap metal bits).  Refill with new appropriate gear oil.  I have found this works to quieten noisy gears.  

Yup, what he said.  Make sure you use NONE Synthetic.  Go with Torco, or the cheep stuff.  All the new fancy synthetic or blend gear oils are not good for the loose tolerances of a VW trans.

I have to ask... was the same throwout bearing used on both transaxles?

Mr. Blankinship:  I apologize for the mis-spelling, I will do my best to see it does not happen again.
Going forward feel free to abstain from replying to posts originating from me.  As an SOC outsider, I am unable to understand your humor or to whom it is directed.  This will help minimize my confusion and your need to clarify.  



On Friday, February 5, 2016 8:43 AM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:


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| Subject: Deceleration Growl Reply By: Tom Blankinship In: Speedsters / Technical General | |


hawaiiantub posted:Mr. Blankenship:  I'm sure some find suggestions like yours useful.

On Friday, February 5, 2016 7:31 AM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:


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| Subject: Deceleration Growl Reply By: Tom Blankinship In: Speedsters / Technical General | |


WOLFGANG posted:Cheap check is to warm trans up and then drain it (ensure you can also get fill hex bolt out before draining).  Then look in the fluid for shiny silver or gold (brass) metal particles.  You might even find a bigger gear tooth (not good).  The drain bolt may have a magnet on it - to trap metal bits).  Refill with new appropriate gear oil.  I have found this works to quieten noisy gears.  
Or you could just let it sit in the garage.  Trans stays wisper quiet ;-)   View This Reply
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No "e" in Blankinship :-).  Inside SOC joke directed at Wolfgang.  His Speedster has been sitting unfinished for something like 20 years.   View This Reply
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Aloha McDusty:  Throw-out bearing and transaxle mounts were replaced with new.  Keep thinking I need the help.

On Friday, February 5, 2016 9:43 AM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:


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| Subject: Deceleration Growl Reply By: mcdusty In: Speedsters / Technical General | |

I have to ask... was the same throwout bearing used on both transaxles?   View This Reply
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Vintage Motorcars - Alex posted:

 

Yup, what he said.  Make sure you use NONE Synthetic.  Go with Torco, or the cheep stuff.  All the new fancy synthetic or blend gear oils are not good for the loose tolerances of a VW trans.

Hi Alex. I just had my transmission rebuilt. Could you please be more specific in what Torco p/n you recommend for oil ? I checked their site and all seemed to be synthetic.

Or, when you say....the cheap stuff, could you again be more specific....like 90 wt gear oil from a local supplier etc. like Napa, CARQUEST or what ?

This seems to be very important .  Thank you.

Basic 80 - 90 weight....

 

http://www.vw-resource.com/tranny_lube.html

 

What recommendations do you guys have for how often the oil should be changed?

Aloha Robert M:  Thanks for the help.



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| Subject: Deceleration Growl Reply By: Robert M In: Speedsters / Technical General | |

What recommendations do you guys have for how often the oil should be changed?   View This Reply
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On Friday, February 5, 2016 8:42 PM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:

Aloha Caretech-IM: Thanks for the link, I'll chase it down.

On Friday, February 5, 2016 8:26 PM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:


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| Subject: Deceleration Growl Reply By: Caretech-IM In: Speedsters / Technical General | |

http://www.vw-resource.com/tranny_lube.html    View This Reply
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Aloha Alan Merklin:  Thanks for the info.

On Friday, February 5, 2016 5:09 PM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:


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| Subject: Deceleration Growl Reply By: Alan Merklin In: Speedsters / Technical General | |

Basic 80 - 90 weight....    View This Reply
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Robert M posted:

What recommendations do you guys have for how often the oil should be changed?

I couldn't find it in my orange (late model beetle and karmann ghia) Bentley manual, but I was always told 30,000 miles. The manual does say to change the oil 600 miles after the transaxle has been rebuilt, and a type 1 4speed will hold 5.3 US pints (2.5 liters or 4.4 Imp pints). Fill slowly, as it takes time for the oil to flow into the differential area.

Also saw tire pressures for radial tires- 27lbs back and 18lbs front. If your car has non-stock size(s), or if you have changed the front/rear weight bias you will have to experiment. Front wheel bearings, and the axle bearings in the irs arms should be serviced at 30,000 miles.

Hawaiiantub, just wondering why there is so much past-post writing in your replies.

 

Ron O posted:

Hawaiiantub, just wondering why there is so much past-post writing in your replies.

 

Just a guess... Instead of "reply with quote" I think he's copying content with his mouse and pasting it into his post.  

To reply with a quote from another post - find the reply you want to reply to and in the lower right corner of that post you will see a link that reads "take action". Click that link and then select "reply with quote".

 Ohhhh! No, I'm wrong. I just figured it out. He's subscribed to the thread via e-mail and he's replying in his email client.  That's what's up.

Ted

Very hard to see what was just added and what is old - ugggh

Ron O posted:

Hawaiiantub, just wondering why there is so much past-post writing in your replies.

 

Aloha Ron O:  TRP is right, I messed up and was replying via email.  Sorry for the clutter, will use "reply with quote" going forward.

TRP posted:

Ron O posted:

Hawaiiantub, just wondering why there is so much past-post writing in your replies.

 

Just a guess... Instead of "reply with quote" I think he's copying content with his mouse and pasting it into his post.  

To reply with a quote from another post - find the reply you want to reply to and in the lower right corner of that post you will see a link that reads "take action". Click that link and then select "reply with quote".

 Ohhhh! No, I'm wrong. I just figured it out. He's subscribed to the thread via e-mail and he's replying in his email client.  That's what's up.

Ted

Aloha TRP: Thanks for the help cleaning up my act.

Thanks Hawaiiantub (would you care to share your first name?). As Greg (Wolfgang) and I think a couple others said, your posts were hard to read. Glad you got it figured out. And call me Al (come on- you know the tune!) 

Ted- Don't you just love those "UEREKA!"  moments? Kind of like when I finally discovered where the page went on this thing when I clicked on the minimize thingie...

David:

When I had Rancho rebuild my transaxle (they built it originally) I also bought 6 quarts of their "Special Sauce" transaxle oil (TRD? or something like that - it's on their site and I'm not at home right now).  That stuff (I found) is full synthetic.  While that might be great for a post-year-2000 Porsche transaxle, I found that it seemed to allow the box to make a bit of noise.  After about 300-400 miles, I drained that stuff and replaced it with Valvoline 90 wt Hypoid oil.  Why Valvoline?  I don't know - just always used it.  Things quieted down just a bit and haven't gotten any louder - at best, the box has gotten a tad quieter, but then I also installed the new seats (I only had a driver's seat when I was messing with the transaxle.

When I first got that transaxle, 17 years ago, I ran 90 wt hypoid for a while and then was seduced by the Dark Side and replaced that with a Full Synthetic transmission oil.  Overall noise, especially in 3'rd gear, increased dramatically within a week.  I drained that stuff and replaced it with Valvoline 90 wt Hypoid and while it didn't make it any quieter, at least at never got any louder.

Bottom line - I agree with Alex.  Valvoline 90 wt Hypoid works fine for me.

hawaiiantub posted:

Mr. Blankinship:  I apologize for the mis-spelling, I will do my best to see it does not happen again.
Going forward feel free to abstain from replying to posts originating from me.  As an SOC outsider, I am unable to understand your humor or to whom it is directed.  This will help minimize my confusion and your need to clarify.  



On Friday, February 5, 2016 8:43 AM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:


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| Subject: Deceleration Growl Reply By: Tom Blankinship In: Speedsters / Technical General | |


hawaiiantub posted:Mr. Blankenship:  I'm sure some find suggestions like yours useful.

On Friday, February 5, 2016 7:31 AM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:


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| Subject: Deceleration Growl Reply By: Tom Blankinship In: Speedsters / Technical General | |


WOLFGANG posted:Cheap check is to warm trans up and then drain it (ensure you can also get fill hex bolt out before draining).  Then look in the fluid for shiny silver or gold (brass) metal particles.  You might even find a bigger gear tooth (not good).  The drain bolt may have a magnet on it - to trap metal bits).  Refill with new appropriate gear oil.  I have found this works to quieten noisy gears.  
Or you could just let it sit in the garage.  Trans stays wisper quiet ;-)   View This Reply
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No "e" in Blankinship :-).  Inside SOC joke directed at Wolfgang.  His Speedster has been sitting unfinished for something like 20 years.   View This Reply
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When you become a supporting member, feel free to criticize me.  If a good natured poke at a fellow supporting member offends you, then it's only a matter of time before you spin out of control and get bounced.   We come on here to share advice and have a good time.  Lighten up an join the fun.

Gordon Nichols posted:

David:

When I had Rancho rebuild my transaxle (they built it originally) I also bought 6 quarts of their "Special Sauce" transaxle oil (TRD? or something like that - it's on their site and I'm not at home right now).  That stuff (I found) is full synthetic.  While that might be great for a post-year-2000 Porsche transaxle, I found that it seemed to allow the box to make a bit of noise.  After about 300-400 miles, I drained that stuff and replaced it with Valvoline 90 wt Hypoid oil.  Why Valvoline?  I don't know - just always used it.  Things quieted down just a bit and haven't gotten any louder - at best, the box has gotten a tad quieter, but then I also installed the new seats (I only had a driver's seat when I was messing with the transaxle.

When I first got that transaxle, 17 years ago, I ran 90 wt hypoid for a while and then was seduced by the Dark Side and replaced that with a Full Synthetic transmission oil.  Overall noise, especially in 3'rd gear, increased dramatically within a week.  I drained that stuff and replaced it with Valvoline 90 wt Hypoid and while it didn't make it any quieter, at least at never got any louder.

Bottom line - I agree with Alex.  Valvoline 90 wt Hypoid works fine for me.

Thanks for that, Gordon. I think I had the Valvoline 80 or 90 Hypo gear oil in my tranny before rebuild and will use it again.

While down at Geno's picking up my tranny I did ask him a few questions about transmission noise after rebuilds and he said that noise is quite typical. I don't know what parts might have been whining in contact with each other ( and I know that's not very informative )....but Geno got distracted a few times during the conversation and he did say that when the original tranny's were built at the factory, the assemblers took the time to lap in various parts that would contact each other and the rebuilders don't have time to do that now in any cost effective way.

I will be taking the time to break in my new rebuild and faithfully keep track of the mileage to drain, check the drain plug and refill at the right time.

Tomorrow I finish off the engine compartment panels and start rewiring some components. The paint / powder coat parts came out pretty nice too. Looking forward to the new setup.

 

Tom Blankinship posted:

..................

Or you could just let it sit in the garage.  Trans stays wisper quiet ;-)

 

Hawaiiantub, we're generally a friendly group that tries to avoid heated exchanges.

We try to resolve any differences in a civil manner through diplomatic negotiation.

In this case, you might have offered to put an 'i' in Blankinship if Mr. Blankinship would in turn agree to put an 'h' in whisper.

 

Sacto Mitch posted:

Tom Blankinship posted:

..................

Or you could just let it sit in the garage.  Trans stays wisper quiet ;-)

 

Hawaiiantub, we're generally a friendly group that tries to avoid heated exchanges.

We try to resolve any differences in a civil manner through diplomatic negotiation.

In this case, you might have offered to put an 'i' in Blankinship if Mr. Blankinship would in turn agree to put an 'h' in whisper.

 

Aloha Sacto Mitch:  If in your opinion there was a heated exchange, I disagree.  I offered a solution path where on a go forward basis, Mr. Blankinship direct his humor to those insiders who get it and  I do not have to wade through unproductive noise.

I did not offer to put an "i" in Blankinship, I stood corrected and committed not to mis-spell the name again.  I apologize in advance for my thickheadedness, but I don't get you comment regarding the "h".

If it's okay with everyone, let's move on.  I still have a deceleration growl and a bunch of fixes to try.  Let focus on the deceleration growl.