disc brake conversion question

You'll have to ask your dealer these questions; the modified spindle (if all it has is the caliper mount welded on it) may be like an original Karmann Ghia disc spindle and not change track width at all. If they are the 2 1/2" offset ("dropped") spindles, then the 1/2 or 5/8" plate moves the wheel out enough so the lower ball joint clears most 15" wheels. I've never heard of dropped spindles that weren't offset, and I've been involved in this hobby a long time. The "spindle included" kits are probably big sellers, as a lot of people will be putting a front end together from scratch, and not bothering with revamping a used beam. If both kits use the same discs and calipers I can't see any performance difference. If you're buying off of a local shop, it might be a good idea to assemble the parts on the spindles to make sure at least the calipers and discs are located in the right places and they will work together. 

A bigger question you might want to ask yourself is, do I want to support a company that for the last 30 years of so has done nothing to support the hobby and preys on the (somewhat correct) assumption that most VW owners are cheap a$$ed fools and will fall for the almost as good as the slightly more expensive but properly made part but 1/2 or 3/4 the price? When we accept substandard products we make it harder for the vendors/people that are trying to support the hobby and bring new products to our market. Why should someone invest in engineering something new when people are just going to buy Empi's poorly made/low cost copy made off shore?

Thought someone else would answer this by now, so I'll take an early shot:

So why sell the spindle-included kit at all?

The drum spindle has a casting with mounting holes relatively close to the spindle itself, whereas the disk spindle has a big, cast tab projecting outward from the spindle on which to mount the caliper assembly.  Since there is no tab on the drum spindle, there must then be a mounting bracket included with the kit to accept the backplate holes on the spindle and provide a properly placed position for the caliper to mount relative to the disk rotor.  Depending on how that bracket is designed and built (how thick, which direction the metal grain goes, how much mating surface area it has for leverage when braking and so forth) it can be either quite strong or not so strong.  If it's not so, then it may be subject to failure down the road or give you a chattery brake.  Personally, I have never seen one fail (although there aren't a lot of the drum-spindle conversions out there), just stating my opinion, FWIW.  I would have to hold one and look at it to give a better evaluation.  I think the biggest attraction to them is, simply, price, although a big advantage is that you would not have to get the front end re-aligned with the drum spindle conversion, since you never muck with the spindles or tie rods.

What are the differences between the two kits in real-world use?

Can't help here, never driven a car with a drum spindle conversion.

Do both methods change the front track width the same amount?

THAT depends entirely on the offset of the hub/rotor that is used.  Some of them offset more than others.  I've heard as little as zero offset and as much as 1" per side, with the average being about 1/2", usually not enough to worry about on a classic-bodied car with 5.5" whels and tires under size 185, and not worth a sniff on a flared car.

And how much would that be?   See above.  BTW:  Carey Hines at Special Edition has used the drum conversions in the past, so try emailing him with these questions, too.

So......I guess that if you're handy enough to know that you have to pickle-fork your old spindles off to install new ones, you'll be able to do either conversion easily.  I have used disk spindles whenever I've done this conversion and they work great.  A step up would be bigger calipers (like 924/944 fronts) with their corresponding spindles (and more $$$) and the next step would be a power brake conversion with a remote hydro-vac tucked over in front of the passenger footwell (Simon Hambly in the UK did this).

BTW:  ALB and I were furiously typing at the same time, but let me amplify his last comment:  "Why should someone invest in engineering something new when people are just going to buy Empi's poorly made/low cost copy made off shore?"

THAT is a BIG DEAL!  You can go for the lowest price and get what everyoine knows is second-rate parts (which is just about anything from EMPI) or....you can spend a bit more for parts and assemblies that others have bought and reported great results in their use.  The choice is yours, but the sources of quality parts are drying up because lots of people vote for quality with their wallets.

I'm looking into what's needed to change my current Vintage front VW disc brake 4 bolt setup to a 5 wide disc brake setup, and was told by So Cal Imports (the company that Kirk buys his 5 wide kits from) that their 5 wide kits are built to be used with drum spindles. 

Therefore, in my case (and any other Vintage owner's case where their car came set up with VW front disc brakes) I will have to change out my disc spindles to drum spindles to accept the 5 wide rotor conversion.

So Cal Imports says that they are working on a bolt on 5 wide kit for existing VW disc brake setups but they won't be in production for at least 6 months time.

Thanks, grant

Thanks, guys. re "empi," I know, I know. I cited empi just as an example so you'd know the parts I'm trying to think about. I just checked the cip1 site to look at the relative prices because I got a line on an unused, still-in-box spindle-included kit from a private seller. No word on the brand name. Said he paid $300 and wants $200. More on why I'd consider a craigslist rig below.

Track width for me is an issue; I've a TD kit and the skinny front rims (with 165-80s)are close to even with the fender lips now. An inch further out would look like ass and cause trouble.

As far as further upgrades, please understand: I work full time as a newspaper reporter. That means I don't have the income some of you enjoy and I likely never will, so high-dollar stuff is not practical for me. But also: many of you are totally insane. I mean, power brakes? On a 1600-pound car?? I see that kind of silly **** all the time on this board. Don't get me wrong: I like many of you, particularly those I've met, and I respect all of you, particularly those with practical knowledge. But some of the ideas some of you run with leave me behind more completely than Pipperato's Spyder with him at the wheel. Why would anyone ever need--or even want--vacuum-assisted brakes on a car like ours?

To my way of thinking--which is 100 percent correct in all facets--the only reason we have power brakes in most cars today is because,

A. Cars nowadays weigh twice what they used to and 2.5 times what they ought to (4,000 pounds, usually), necessitating all manner of yet-heavier equipment to make them controllable by us puny humans, and

B. People are whussies, unable to wipe their own asses without mechanical assistance.

I thought Porsche replicas and the like were a rebellion against that modern bullshit

Ed, don't overlook the C.B. Performance disc brake kits. They are well made with superior parts.  I have had mi rear brake converted to discs over 8,000 miles ago.  They have performed flawlessly and the pads sho no sign of wear which is due, I guess to the light weight of my VS.  Many people say you"dopn't need" 4 wheel discs but they saved my bacon once.

Thanks, Jack. I'll consider them if I don't grab this used kit--or if I do and it turns out, like so many "great deals," to be not a deal.

Truth told, the drums are fine for now. I'm looking to collect the parts for a possible EJ22 swap next year or the year after. My Type 1 has something like 50k miles on it. It's an original '66 1300 case with unknown internals and jugs. I figure I should think about a next engine sooner than too later.

If you go sooby, you'll want disks at least on the front.  Rear seems to be more a matter of taste.  I like the fact that they don't need adjustment, so pulling should be less.  Too bad I couldn't get them to fit and work properly on my car.

Exactly, Lane: If Soob, then discs--in front at least.

Lane's got it right about the discs with a Soob. I'll be converting to discs in April getting ready for the Carlisle trip. Ed, this time next year I'll likely put in a totally rebuilt EJ22 in my car. If you're thinking about a Soob conversion I could make you a nice deal on my existing setup. Not real pretty but works well. I'm not changing anything on the new motor....Megajolt ignition and one Weber 32/36 in the center and same exhaust and rad system.

I'll take Jack's recommend and have a look into CB's setup. Other than those, can you other lads recommend anything else rather than what not to use? Thanks.

CB's disk conversion is decent.  Good quality and easy to get replacement parts.  I've used their conversion kit twice and they were both great quality and easy to install.

Two thumbs up!

If you go with the C.B. Performance kit, follow the specs given for what torque to use for the various fastners.  Disregarding torque specs will not let the kit perform as it was designed.

Besides providing much shorter stops than with just front discs, my car stops as straight as an arrow now.  With my original set up with drums on the rear, I had one panic stop after I topped a hill going pretty fast and was surprised by the stopped cars right over the crest.  When I quickly used the brakes it zigged and zagged and I thought I might loose control.  Very damned scarey!  I'd never consider not having 4 wheel disc brakes.

Looks like it'll be the CB kit when the time comes. Something like $350 shipped. Stroud, I may take you up on that deal, provided you haven't put 300,000 miles on that engine before you sell it. Let me know.

the early kits used the ghia spindles,(I have that kit) that was befor they started making spindles so cheep. then along came the bracket to use the exsisting spindle, cheeper & faster to install & easyer for the diy guy. then came the droped spindles, some were welded but now days there either cast iron or forged steel like the ghia. if you dont need the droped spindles you can just go with the bracket.it may have some chatter or squeel, or not hold the calioper perfect due to it not being as thick&part of the caliper, just bolted on where the backing plated atached. I reckon if it did have issues we would of heard by now, and you could also weld it to the spindle in addtion to bolting .I have the rear disc with the E brake feature on my bug(still worken on getten my 356, hopefuly in a week or so it will apear hear in fl) some of the rear kits use a cast bracket some use a stamped steel bracket, mine is the stamped one.  they were not straight so I milled them square, and there just fine, but I would rather have the cast bracket& if my speedster dont have disc it will get the cast bracket or I will add some extra webbing to the steel one&then square it up on the mill.

    the droped spindles were about $225 when they came out,I think I paid about $125 for mine 3 years ago, now there about $88.00 and mine are still on the shelf.(as are the front disc brakes) there is also a master cylinder that works with the disc setup better than the std one.I havent got it yet,$40.00, just havent remembered when I get stuff to add it to the order.