Disc brakes

Interested in installing front and rear disc brakes kits on a 69 chassis (4 bolt). What is good kit and what other mod's are required? Are there any articles for reference?

CB Performance has them.

Thanks. Do they have a web site?

Found it. CB performance.com.

Stavros,

CB Performance in Farmersville, CA. (Near Bakersfield, CA. - cbperformance.com)offers Front Disc Brake Kits for 4 Lug Ball Joint Suspensions such as your 69 Chassis.

I have a 69 Chassis under my Speedster and have been researching the same retrofit. I work in Fresno and live below Shaver Lake, I noticed you are in Fresno as well. If you would like to give me a call at 559-268-7375 I'd like to learn more about your car and possible share with you some of the modifications performed on my car.

My car is a 69 Chasis as well with Drum Brakes like yours appearntly however I have Front Drop Spindles. The Lowered Front Spindles and Lowered Rear Suspension really enhance the car's stance/look and handling.

Best Regards,

Jack Blake
jblake@nesmw.com

You will need check valves as well. right at the master cylinder. Make sure you ask the folks at CB-P about it. They have a assortment of valves for drum & disc or 4 wheel disc combos for the strongest brakes use a bus master cylinder

I think CB's front brake kit comes with the dropped spindles; check their web site catalog or give them a call at (800) 274-8337.

CB has kits for either standard height or dropped spindles

Chuck

Stavros,

In the latest issue of "Hot VW's", CB Performance - Farmersville, CA., has Front Disc Brake Conversion Kits including "Drop Spindles" for about $380.00 W/O Master Cylinder.

They also have a listing for various Rear Disc Brake Conversions Kits in the article as well.

Best Regards,

Jack Blake

Just in the process of putting on CBs rear disc brake kit. A VERY nice kit. Very complete and excellent quality. Mine has the Porsche close/5 bolt pattern.
Ron

Ron, when your finished let us know if your pedal feels any different, or is higher or lower than it was before. Thanks Eddie

I added CB's rear disc set this winter to match the discs up front on a lowered spindle. The increase in braking power was notable. I also put SS lines (pre-fabbed) up front and had a set of SS lines made to run from the rears. THAT reduced pedal travel by a significant amount!

With a front sway bar, camber comp and the rear 3:88 r/p swing, rear lowered, and running 24 psi front & 28 rear, stock shocks (no name brand.. cheap shorties for front & stockers rear, I am pleased with the overall ride, acceleration/cruise, handling and braking of my VS.

Jim

Jim, nice to hear from you. I'm right behind you, All I have to do is the rear disc brakes. I used SS. lines too. Did you notice any difference in pedal height, when you added the rear discs? And what valve, if any did you use in the rear? Eddie

Ron: Great to hear the kit looks good,just ordered mine yesterday
(Thurs. 4/24). They're backed up that they won't ship till Mon.
Can't wait to get 'em. Let us know how the installation goes. Did you get any kind of pressure proportioning valve to put in line to the rear brakes?? CB recommended it so I bought one. I noticed a firmer pedal after installing the front discs. work real nice!!
BD

(Message Edited 4/25/2003 9:45:52 PM)

I'm not installing a proportioning valve yet. I'm going to see how the peddle feels first.
What are SS lines? (stainless steel?)
I did a mock-up on one of the wheels just to see how it would look. One thing for sure is I'm going to have to cut their parking brake line to make it shorter. Too bad, since it had a nice finished end.
I'm going to finish the job on Saturday, (including the front rotor swap to the close/5 stud pattern.
Ron

Hey Stavros!

I have a 1969 based speedster with the CB Performance front disk brake package (regular spindles).

Don't bother with the proportioning valve - I started without one, then put one in and noticed no difference at just about any setting, so I pulled it out and they're working just fine. I am also NOT using any check valves (with a stock 1969 T1 master cylinder). All of the lines are run just as if I had drums all around (two lines in front to the disks, one line to the rear drums). Nothing is "loose" feeling, and nothing drags, either - they seem to be working OK to me.

I didn't think when installing the calipers and installed them on the wrong sides. They will bolt on either side, but when properly installed the bleed valves should be on the upper side of the caliper (remember, air bubbles won't rise to the bottom!). Once I straightened that out they bled right and worked super.

good luck! gn

I did the same thing when I mocked up one side...put the caliper on upside down, with the bleed hole at the bottom.
Ron

Ron, yes it stands for stainless steel braided. My car came with discs on the front and drums on the rear. When I installed the SS. brake lines the pedal became much more firm, just like Jim said. Jim, did you have any clearance problems in the rear? Are you still useing stock 5 1/2" wheels? I know there's not much room at the top, and I've heard that the brake kits make the rear wider.

Sorry I didn't reply sooner, but I was just out enjoying the Speedster on a 74' variable/light wind sunny day.

Yes, the SS Braided lines effected travel to the positive. I too have foregone the check & proportioning valve thing, and also am running the stocker T-1 Master Cylinder... so far, so good. But when I lay her up this winter I may do a little homework and go with the valves & a dual master set up after I watch, learn, and hopefully know exactley what everyone is using with success.

Having a swing axle gives you more room to work with, especially if you have the shorties (I don't). I measured outside track before and after & (I think) it increased 3/16" (or a smidgin less)per side. I am still running the 5.5's with 185/65 Dunlop A2s (cheaper but good street tires) After all the mods (lowering front/rear & adding discs + shocks) I found that with the weight of a passenger that my right rear made a bump noise on extreme hard rights, found the problem in the camber comp bolts being too long... replaced them and fini glitch!

I will try and finally get a pic of the CSP system up today.. hopefully.

Thanks,
Jim

Where did you get your stainless steel brake hoses from? CSP? I see they advertise SS lines in HOT VWs.
Ron

I swapped parts for them (the ss braided front hoses)at a meet last fall. Yes CSP has them, but most other majors do too. I would check John Connely at aircooled parts... you'll find his ad in Trends and probably Hot VWs too. John is a member this forum & knows boo-coo about all things VW. I will be making a few purchases soon, and will make sure my bucks go to his enterprise rather than someone else.

I had the rear hoses custom made.

Jim

Well, 5 hours later and the front rotors and rear discs are on (except for the emergency brake. I'm going to replace the front lines with SS lines, since they're over 20 years old. The backs will have to wait until next year. CB has a nice rear disc system, but the instruction sheet leaves something to be desired. Luckily, I had a buddy over to help me and he knew what he was doing (unlike me).
Ron

Just a heads up on stainless steel lines. Most are not DOT approved because it is very difficult to inspect them with the SS braid over top. The inner hose can chafe against the SS braid and cause them to ware prematurely and fail suddenly in a hard stop. Some insurance companies will cause you a great deal of grief if it is found that non-DOT approved parts were the cause of an accident. When you see, for racing use only, not for highway use or off road only this means that they are not approved.

Mine were DOT approved, as are many out there. Good point though.

Jim

I'd be interested in knowing how the rear brakes perform Ron. I think you and I have the same car...tube frame 84 IM Roadster? What type of performance gains are you expecting and then what do you get?

In driving my car (front discs and rear drums) I don't think I could safely stop any quicker. The problem is dirt and fine gravel on our roads up here. The car just slides accross this stuff...

Brian

Brakes are not the determinng factor in stopping distance, tires are. Drum brakes will stop a car as quickly as discs with the same tire setup, just not time after time like when you're racing.
ed

The nice thing about disk brakes is that they are far superior to drums in the rain if they are cross-drilled (pads squeegee the water off into the holes as the brakes are applied).

I guess thats the hesitation I've felt in some non-drilled disc braked cars in the rain.
ed

Drum brakes are fine, but try slowing down quickly from...lets say 100 + mph, to make that tight turn. Or, try making some speed down a winding mountain highway, where you're on the gas and then on the brakes then back on the gas etc.
I won't be checking out the brakes for a few weeks, since my motor and tranny are out. I agree about the tires. Just got some Yokohama AVS ES100s mounted on my Eagle 911 wheels)195 x 60/15. They JUST fit (under the rear fender). They're about as high performance as you can get (these days) in a 60 series tire.
Ron

I just installed an EMPI rear disc brake conversion onto my CMC flareside. The kit came with with the park brake assembly. If you order it for a IRS suspension make sure you get the axle nut spacers that are optional. One problem I had with the kit is that my rear tires are 225/50R15. I had plenty of clearance with the original rear drum brakes. With the rear disc conversion the wheels and tires came out further reducing my wheel clearance. I machined off .240" off the bolting face of the rotor without touching the axle nut land. The rotor face is slightly over .750" thick. I didn't want to tear off the rear fenders. Just be aware that the rear disc conversion kit do increase you wheel width. It was cheaper the perform some machining rather than purchase nwe tires and wheels.

Joe I have an EMPI kit and had to do the same thing. I had to resurface the discs before I could use them too. The CB kit with the 914 discs looks like a nice kit with better callipers but it is supposed to increase the track by 0.5

Funny you should mention offset. I've got the ROTO hubs, which is their cheaper rear disc kit. I'm not sure if it uses 914 pads. I think these 914 pads went with the more expensive kit (not sure). It's the CB rear disc brakes with parking brakes and Porsche 5 bolt pattern, for $369.95. A great price. My new Eagle 911 style wheels have less offset than my old wheels, but when mounted on my new rear discs they stick out farther. My new 195s JUST fit. Something else to consider when mounting rear discs.
Ron

A question about the EMPI kit (which I have) for future referance- what pads do they use?

The empi rear disc kit uses a rare Brazilian Chevette brake pad that is not availble commercially in the US. Empi stocks them as does SOCAL and CB, they all use the same pads. When ordering EMPI or CB order for the year of the car, EMPI comes with spacers you leave out for early swing axel. The rear discs work best with the E-brake hooked up as it keeps the pads close to the rotor. We have been installing these kits for three years now with grat results. On a car with over 25M miles, no noticable pedal fade with this mileage and very little wear but great brake feel and strong stops.

The car the callipers come from is the rear of a 84-91 Opel Kadett Gsi. John is correct in that most of the people selling the rear kits use this calliper and they all sell the same pad. I regret buying a kit with this calliper since I cannot get a better quality pad to fit the calliper. If you really want to stop you should consider a kit with the VW Gti rear calliper. You will still initially get a low-end organic pad similar to the Opel

Ron, How did the rear disc brake install go? How did you go about shortening the e-brake cables?

BD

Hi Bill
Believe it or not I haven't got the car on the road yet. Brakes are in, but I haven't put in the emergency brake cables yet. Funny how one saves the crappy jobs to the last. I just got a full set of braided steel brake lines from Air Cool Net. Those are going on Monday or Tuesday night. Heads will be ready mid week (ported and polished) and then tranny and motor goes in next weekend (I hope). Then I'll actually get to drive it and check out the brakes. I don't mind that I haven't been able to drive the car this spring...the weather up here has been terrible...rain, rain and more rain.
Ron

Ron (or all): I am preparing to start my rear disc job. Preliminary attempts to undo the axle nut have been futile. Do you recall if one side is reverse threaded?
Thanx, BD

Bill, don't they both have cotter pins? I don't recall one being LHT but they are torqued VERY TIGHT. Do you have a Bentley or other maintenance manual? Some people use KYMCO's torque-meister (tool for flywheel gland nut) and an adapter socket to do axle nuts.

(Message Edited 5/27/2003 4:19:22 PM)