i received a PM about the picture on mangosmoothie.ca not all showing, so i went through and found the ones related to the rear narrowed training arms:
enjoy: https://imgur.com/a/V8uEE6K
Axles are Type 3, Automatic Trans. either left or right - one of them is shorter due to how the AT is placed in the T3. i forget which side. 0.93" shorter, but i shoved the CV in more too (both CV's on each axle) and was able to get 1.5" per side with no issues.
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That works ... cool stuff.
Thanks Paul.
Al are those available from CiP already made?
IaM-Ray posted:Al are those available from CiP already made?
They may have been at one time, Ray, but I didn't see them just now.
Hey Paul. Do the type 3 cv axles use a standard type 1 stub axle?
I'm pretty sure yes, Seth.
sethsaccocio posted:Hey Paul. Do the type 3 cv axles use a standard type 1 stub axle?
Type 1 and 3 axles are the same diameter/spline so it's the cv joint outer diameter, Seth, that dictates which stub axle (and flange on the trans side) is used, so yes, type 3 axles are used with type 1 parts. Bus cv joints are slightly larger diameter (100 mm vs 90) than type 1 and so require type 2 or type 181 (thing) stub axles and flanges. IIrc bus and thing cv's are the same diameter but are slightly different thickness (I'm guessing the type 4/181 is thicker and uses slightly bigger ball bearings to achieved more angle)? 930 cv's are larger again, at 108 mm.
The bigger cv joints are used off road, as they can take more angle, but the type 1 cv's have proven themselves in all but the most powerful street cars. There are type 1 cv's (and axles) in 11 second cars and they hold up, so it is not worth doing in our cars.
Type 1 cv's maximum angularity is 12° Type 2 (bus)- 17° Type 4/181- 22° 930- 25°
Kevin Zagar @Coolrydes had made up a couple of extra pairs when he completed my arms. They might still be available.
Brian
Thanks Al. That's good to know. The swing to irs conversion is turning out to be a big job with having to narrow the TAs, removing the motor so I can get the old tranny out and the new one in. Hope it is worth it.
I will give Kevin a call Brian.
This is what I did.
Scott! A fellow “Graftonite”! (Just a different state)
Those diagonal arms look way better than stock VW, for sure.
Nice job
Hey guys. Great topic. I had my arms narrowed by a shop in Tennessee. The type 3 automatic left axle is 26 mm shorter than a type 1 manual axle. Typically the arms are narrowed 1.125 inches. The cv joints are exactly the same. For reference:
Curtis,
Got a link to the shop? It'd be good info for people presently (and in the future) looking to get this done.
Thanks,
Stan
http://www.valleyautowerks.com/
guys name is Sam Manis.
@curtissb wrote- 'Typically the arms are narrowed 1.125 inches.'
Just to let everyone know- with the limited space between the spring plates and fenders we owners (both Speedster and Beetle) have to deal with and the range of wheel widths and offsets available there is no 'typical' or usual amount to narrow the trailing arms. You bring the bearing carrier/mounting surface in whatever distance suits your purpose. I'll be narrowing mine 5/8 or 3/4" to accommodate the fake 7" 911R wheels I had made up with the extra track of the type 3 hubs (they just fit now with my 'custom' spring plates and type 1 drums). A friend (who I think may have been the first to perform the modification) narrowed his arms 1" to fit 15x8" Fuchs with 225/50-15's and 914 discs on his bug (and they do fit inside the fenders!). Valley Autoworks' jig is set up for 1" but the website says other widths are available (more money because of increased set up time). Al
Curtis- what width wheels and tires are you using? Any pics? Come on-
I wish I would have known about this guy when I built my car it would have given us another option to solve the wheel clearance issue.
I tried to get a hold of Valley Auto several times before I contacted Kevin @ Coolrydes , never any response.
@MangoSmoothie.ca- what size rear tires were you able to go with?
I was running 205/65r15 but I recently changed to 205/50r15 to get track tires. I have about 3/16” clearance on the inside of the tire next to the spring plates and the same on the outside against the inner fender.
Are you getting any rubbing?
No rubbing
ALB posted:@MangoSmoothie.ca- what size rear tires were you able to go with?
P185/60R15 Yokohama AVID TRZ tires
“What is the logic in using 944 rear end, trailing arms, hub and axles? @ALB It would give you hub centric balancing.”
Well, yes.....That’s true, but the REAL reason for going to the 924/944 rear is for the much bigger disk brakes and a mechanical e-brake on them. The hub centricity is just a bonus on top of that.
Correct me if I am wrong but a MkIV Jetta rear disk brake caliper, has the equivalent pad size and pistons essentially has those same features, including the mechanical e-brake and they fit an empi rear disk, rotohub is what they call it.
You can choose whichever bolt pattern that you desire.
My desire was to get the hub centric benefit of the 944 axles and with ROtohubs sometimes you need spacers and you don't get it.
Anyway, that is how I got started on the 944 rabbit trail.
MangoSmoothie.ca posted:ALB posted:@MangoSmoothie.ca- what size rear tires were you able to go with?
P185/60R15 Yokohama AVID TRZ tires
Thanks Paul!
IaM-Ray posted:What is the logic in using 944 rear end, trailing arms, hub and axles? @ALB It would give you hub centric balancing.
While that is true, Ray, it is my understanding that 944 rear trailing arms are wider (1"?) than Beetle irs arms, the 944 aluminum arms are not any lighter and because of their construction can't be narrowed like Beetle arms can be. Other than the brakes (which I think are huge overkill for our cars, especially since there are a number of rear disc brake kits already aimed at us) and the bolt pattern (which can also be done on parts intended for our cars) there's no real advantage.
Initially a while back I was looking at the 944 for brakes mostly when I was building the car.
I have come to understand that the 944 rear end offers me no real advantage but when I was having a balancing issue, I wondered if maybe the axles or the hubs being hub centric would give me a chance at a better balanced rear wheels.
I cured my front end balance issue by getting new tires in April 2019 and the rear were new from 2018 but I still get a small rear vibration sometimes and, well you know the madness got to me and I started looking for hubs again. I could get some hub centric rings made but I have to have a machine shop do them with my wheels and then they have to fit onto the empi below.
The issue I have in getting them made is that I have a spacer then the castle nut as well which is actually bigger than the hub center so I have to remove the castle nut and the spacer then have it machined as a metal ring then reverse it ...
A lot of work so I keep delaying getting it done.
I know it is overkill, but I am going to use CSP vented rotors up front w/ Wilwoods at the very least. There aren’t a lot of provisions for vented rotors in back with a functional e- brake, other than maybe the Coolrydes set-up. If someone knows something different, I am all ears. There is a buzz in the Hot Rod world about using a Tesla electric e- brake caliper. It is utterly mad, this madness!
Paul It looks like you are using a racing tire in the thread where you built your hardtop. Are the those the Avid TRZ's? They look really cool with the black rims and drum covers.
RacerX posted:I know it is overkill, but I am going to use CSP vented rotors up front w/ Wilwoods at the very least. There aren’t a lot of provisions for vented rotors in back with a functional e- brake, other than maybe the Coolrydes set-up. If someone knows something different, I am all ears. There is a buzz in the Hot Rod world about using a Tesla electric e- brake caliper. It is utterly mad, this madness!
Why don't you investigate using Empi solid rotors and VW Jetta MkIV rear calipers which have parking brake via cables.
You will need a proportioning valve but then most of the braking will be done by your Wildwood. Just saying
Thanks, will do! They might make a vented rotor for that (?) Haven’t made the final wheel choice, but it does look pretty cool when the calipers are painted and visible . There is a very knowledgeable fella at Vdub engineering that may have an insight as well. He sells brackets for the Wilwoods up front along with P-car brake swaps.
Wait a minute ... we are talking about the Jetta caliper, not the rotor. Geez, this getting old stuff ain’t for the weak!
RacerX posted:Wait a minute ... we are talking about the Jetta caliper, not the rotor. Geez, this getting old stuff ain’t for the weak!
Gee, yeah, it's when you can't remember if you brushed your teeth or even if you are wearing underarm or let alone got your zipper up ... then your in trouble. 
My mom at 93 said it is no fun getting old.
I just realized that the topic was training arms is that like training wheels
Empi solid disk and I found this link ... I think these calipers are them., you still need the mounting brackets and you might need to machine them for clearance/ spacers etc. to see if your wheels would fit with them on. .. I could be wrong here so you need to do your homework.
Got it. Gracias!
Brian
