Alan,
I was going to txt you my cell this evening to get the actuator installed, but this afternoon: Sharona is NO more. See the pictures I have attached here.
I will see you at Carlisle anyways.
Let's see how the insurance company responds in my moment of need?
p.s. emptied my whole Extinwisher and that of the first cop to respond and not even close to enough.
wow, sorry to hear about your loss.
That is terrible. I'm glad to hear you're okay. I wonder if one of those automatic fire suppression systems would have helped?
Next one I buy will definitely have the automatic Halon gas unit installed (or with a manual release)and install the Actuator to open lid before it is too late. The fire fighters had to pour a lot of water and foam to fully contain and it took them a while to control.
Terrible news about your car.
Could you start a new thread about this and explain in more detail how the fire started?
Very sorry for your loss. Who took the pics and who's the dood across the way taking more pics. Nobody with a garden hose at least to try to help while help is on the way ?
My car will be there and your welcome to drive it anytime.
condolences on the car..... best of luck with the settlement.
Dang, Pepe! Sorry to see the carnage on your car. That is gut-wrenching to see your pride & joy ruined in such a manner! Best wishes for getting a proper settlement and you back on the road. Glad you were not injured in any way!
P.S. - water may NOT have been the firefighters' best choice to suppress a magnesium alloy engine fire. I think water would actually act as an accelerant in such a case! Jim Kelly may have some insight on this.
I hear ya on the water thing. Didn't now that. Photos are good though, eh ? Nothing to do but wait for help I guess.
Hey Jim,
I've been retired from the fire service for 25 years, so they may have new extinguishing agents since I left that I'm unfamiliar with. With that being said, however, in the late 60's, 70's, and 80's when I was working, we got LOTS of VW bug engine fires. Not sure what actual %, but between 1/3 and 1/2 of our car fires were a/c Volkwagens. In those days (and I'm not sure it's any different now), water was the preferred extinguishing agent. It was cheap, easily accessible, and you brought a lot with you, even if you didn't "take" a hydrant.
Two key facts about magnesium fires: 1) magnesium shavings are the real danger with mag fires, since small particles have so much surface area exposed that they heat rapidly, and 2) the longer mag burns, the hotter it gets, and the more extreme the reaction to water.
What those two facts above mean for us is that a magnesium ALLOY engine case won't burn like a dumpster full of mag shavings, since the energy required to heat a mag alloy case is enormous, when compared to shavings. Putting out the fire early is the best method of preventing the case from reaching the temps required for an accellerant reaction. I probably went to a couple hundred car fires, and maybe 50 of those were VW's. I never had a bad reaction from using water on a mag alloy case.
However, I went to a dumpster fire at FMC, where they made APC's and tanks in the '70's and '80's. Unbeknownst to us, they had a BIG dumpster full of mag shavings what caught fire. I flipped the lids open, and stuck an inch-and-a-half nozzle in the dumpster. Next thing I knew, my buddy was shaking me, trying to wake me up. Hot mag shavings REALLY don't like water.
To me, the tried and true advice works best. Buy the best extinguisher you can afford, whether it's portable or fixed system, and practice with it every few months. For a fixed system, I like the idea of a manual override.
Hey, Pepe, don't feel bad. Some of the car fires I went to featured an owner with an empty extinguisher. Never worked. You need to open the engine deck lid to get at the fire. Until I had been to a few car fires, I wasn't worth much either. Practice makes perfect. No one is born knowing this stuff, you just have to practice to learn.
OK, that's enough to scare me.
someone point me to those threads on on-board fire suppression systems.
thanks.
Jim,
Everything you said played out yesterday afternoon. They poured water, but lid was closed/melting so limited water direct at source.
Upon exiting vehicle first thing I tried was to pull lid latch open; but guess what now trying to reach had grill to fully open (with flames in area) was not a wise idea. Firemen put a bed of foam under vehicle and that really did the final trick.
I did learn a lot:
1. have handle held available in cab (the larger Class B the betterr).
2. have a means to immediately open lid "automatically". Whether with actuator, gas strut, etc. Even the firemen could have used this device to assist in getting at source.
3. ideally have a remote lever actuated unit in engine bay to immediately kill oxygen element.
By the way the mag. did "top" a few times (so did the two rear tires) and those guys jumped back a couple of feet each time.
Tom,
Last time I checked with them (after your advise, I think I spoke to a Bill) they said they had limited parts to put one of these units together? Not sure if they now have more components to build these?
I installed a Halon self actuating extinguisher in my car on the firewall (appropriately named, don't you think?)
You can see it at the top of the engine compartment - the horizontal tube with a blue label. Good insurance that I hope will never be used.
Good point, Tom.
This happened so quick that by the time I noticed anything, flames were already expanding in engine bay. I think protecting the tank from the fire expanding there is a good measure also.
I did pop the front lid open in case the fire fighters on arrival need to put water on fuel tank.
In my opinion it has to be an "automatic" opening system on lid. No time to open manually and try to get foam into engine bay.
Tom L.
This system is currently on salefor $125 which is $25 off. Not a bad deal. Watch the video at the bottom of the page.
@Jim Kelly - thanks for that info update! I learn something new & useful EVERY time I visit this site.
Pepe - glad to know you weren't injured! Myself, having walked away from a 50-mph head-on collision in my VS, know that these cars can be repaired or replaced. Your well being is top-concern. 
Thank you, Jim.
Yeah, getting that lap belt released and door open was my primary focus once the alarm went off in my head.
I will own another Speedster; only a matter of time.
Tom L.
Bob, Is your system a Blaze Cut?
I'm guessing the use of a plastic fuel filter in the engine bay or a loose fuel line is the most frequent cause of the fires. What makes me wonder is once the engine is shut off the availability of fuel is reduced/eliminated so - other than insulation or fiberglass catching - why does the fire continue in the engine compartment?
Jim Kelly,
With experience in about 50 VW fires, were you ever able to determine the most frequent causes of these fires?
While we're waiting for Jim to respond, I have personally seen two engine fires caused by the carbs coughing up a flame and starting the paper air filters on fire from the inside out. They were fed ( I suppose) by the fuel still in the float bowls - you can look down the carb throat and see fuel sitting there. Even after you stop the engine there is still 1/2 cup or more of fuel in each bowl and it goes up FAST.
I've seen one other fire caused by a leaking fuel line at a connection with a loose clamp.
Bob, Is your system a Blaze Cut?
Gordon
It's a Safecraft Halon system. I had to call them personally to get one made up in the size I need. I dealt with Rocky, who is a very nice guy, and set up me up with the order.
I can provide contact details if you need.
Bob
Yikes! Sorry to hear about the speedster. What was your first symptom that you had a problem back there? Did the car just quit running? was there a backfire? did you just lose power? I've often wondered how I'd get the engine lid open if I had a problem back there. It's quite the fiddly operation to get it open and propped up.
(Sorry Doc about the thread drift)
Ted
Bob, when did you last reach out to Safecraft?
is your part # end in -1025 (26" lenth) or 1020 18" lenth)?
I just spoke to them last week, and unfortunately they no longer make what they call " the Porsche Specific parts", either the IM 26" tube or shorter speedster 18" tube.
Said market was too small, and their President, who owned a IM and pushed to keep this product in the catalog has since left....
All they could offer me was to recreate the system using the same automatic valves and any size bottle they carry. Priced 3lb bottle- 350$ +S/H. Cheaper if used a 2lb or 1lb bottle. i am waiting to receive a writen quote w/ part numbers from them.
Unfortunately the 1.5" diameter two sided bottle they no longer have available.
bummer! if you have heard something different, or know where these specific parts could still be purchased please let me know.
i do have Blazecut installed until I get a beefier system installed.
Many thanks,
Luis
Bob, when did you last reach out to Safecraft?
I just spoke to them last week, and unfortunately they no longer make what they call " the Porsche Specific parts", either the IM 26" tube or shorter speedster 18" tube.
Said market was too small, and their President, who owned a IM and pushed to keep this product in the catalog has since left....
This was maybe two years ago? I had heard they may be going out of the business of this product, but I was able to get one.
Sorry to hear you did not have any luck. I knew there was an Intermeccanica connection, as Henry used to offer these as an option in his builds, and that's what got me interested in getting one for my IM.
*I just checked my old emails, and it was in 2013.
Bruce,
I worked in a busy downtown station in San Jose, only a few blocks from SJ State, so there were lots of bug in those days, and we got there quickly, usually less than a 3-4 minute response time. However, that response time was from the time we received the call. This was the pre-cell phone days, so the vehicles were usually fully involved when we arrived.
That means that damage was substantial. The usual culprits are things we can check with our eyes and hands, whether we are mechanics or not.
are the fuel lines still pliable or have they hardened and become brittle;
do the fuel lines touch hot surfaces;
where is the fuel filter placed;
are fuel lines properly clamped.
Clear plastic fuel filters have become popular, since they are cheap, easily changed, and show the fuel. If you must use them, don't place them in the engine compartment or where they will touch hot metal or get torn off.
I am a firm believer in buying tested fire suppression equipment. If you install an automatic halon or halon-derivative system, make sure it approved by UL, NFPA, or other nationally-recognized testing authority. Same with portable extinguishers.
We all want the same things: to be safe, but to be able to drive and enjoy our cars. Your eyes and nose are the keys to that enjoyment. Every once in a while, squeeze your fuel lines to test pliability, and check your clamps. Also, look and smell for any signs of leaking fuel. Install fire protection that makes you comfortable, get an agreed value insurance policy, and drive like that kid that still lives in all of us.
About ten or more years ago we did a group buy on Spyderclub with Safecraft. I think the minimum was 10 orders. We got a 5 lb. Halon bottle with remote cable pull, and some spray jets, and some aluminum tubing. I put my bottle in the RF nose, I think it weighs around 10 pounds. Release cable is in front of my shifter on the center tunnel. I have three jets, one pointed at each carb, and one pointed at the gas heater.
The procedure is stop the car, open door, take a deep breath(Halon displaces oxygen), pull the handle, and get the heck out!
Hope I never need to use it, but I'm glad it is there. I check the gauge on the bottle monthly.
If I recall, it was $325 shipped. And yes, it is UL listed.
Oh yeah, almost forgot, terribly sorry about the car fire. Glad you made it OK.
Kinda looks a lot like Ron O'Black's car after the fire, doesn't it?
Sorry to hear of loss for sure. Rusty Tubs has a rear section ready to go - $1495. Time for road trip to GA (I see you are Orlando, FL area).
http://www.rustytubs.com/speed...glass-rear-clip.html
orderd the Blaze Cut
Carburators and air filters are an issue with jets getting plugged and then squirting fuel upwards into an oil soaked filter... then if the engine backfires you have flame coming into the filter and voila... you can see fire in some race engines with stacks of carbs on large v8's...
In our cars it happens in air-cooled engines way way more than in a fuel injected water cooled unit. It really makes highlights the need to have the maintenance done on carbs regularly and running good fuel filters that do not leak. In my old 2110cc I could always smell gas left over in the float bowls when I stopped, which was the norm with dual 44 IDE. Ray
This is the worst nightmare that we all have. I'm really sorry to hear about this and the pictures are gut-wrenching. We should all be scared straight by such sights. There are some good points here about being safe to start with, and then the issue of being able to open the back deck to apply the fire extinguisher. I carry mine between the seats. I can get it PDQ, but getting it in the engine compartment may be trouble. The notes here tell me that such may not be possible, at least not in time to make a difference. Automatic opener back there ? Sounds good. Halon system - sounds good too.
What is your expectation here: salvageable? How about the engine?? Is it toast too?
I'm guessing the use of a plastic fuel filter in the engine bay or a loose fuel line is the most frequent cause of the fires. What makes me wonder is once the engine is shut off the availability of fuel is reduced/eliminated so - other than insulation or fiberglass catching - why does the fire continue in the engine compartment?
Jim Kelly,
With experience in about 50 VW fires, were you ever able to determine the most frequent causes of these fires?
Fiberglass resin is pretty flammable, once it lights up, it'll keep burning.
Gas alone is going to burn without a great deal of smoke and being in an enclosed space and with the smoke downwind while driving, you may not notice until the flames are large enough or the resin has already caught fire. Plus, if you lose a pressurized hose, an electric pump can keep working even with the engine stalled, and a carbed engine can keep running quite a while just on the fuel in the bowls, the mechanical pump squirting away the whole time. Lose (fell off or burned through) the unpressurized hose from the (stock) tank and the entire gas tank can drain under the back of the car. Just because you shut the engine off doesn't mean there isn't enough fuel for the fire.
First to Alan, my apologies for highjacking your very impresive build post. My intentions were only to reply to your request to send to us photos of actuator install. I will pm you my cell as I am still interested in installing my actuator in a future Speedster.
Guys,
does anyone know how to merge all this "fire" posts off of Alan's thread? If so, can you re-direct me to this new post? Thanks.
A couple of answers:
a. the last picture I posted last night shows the L and R air filters are intact. No flames out of them at all.
b. metal fuel lines along 2 x 2 support in engine area coming from firewall; NAPA Metal Fuel filter behind the license plate area (with stand-off on top of 2x2 support). Then flex fuel line to mechanical fuel pump. The output lines to both Webers were also made of flex fuel tubing.
d. From what I experienced after emptying two fire extinwhishers (mine and the cop who arrived right behind me), I would say that Halon auto unit is a must to starve the oxygen in engine compartment enough to be able to open (with strut or actuator) and then apply as much foam as possible to trouble area. This would keep things from getting out of control as quickly as it did.
Just my two cents from what I went through yesterday.
Tom Lorenzo
