Drop Spindles On A Super Widebody Vintage Speedster

Is there anyone out there who has actually installed drop spindles on a super widebody Vintage Speedster? Mostly, I'm curious about any special tools I will need, if I can do it myself, "exactly" what to buy, and anything else I need to know.

My car is about 2 inches too high and can not be adjusted any lower with the single adjuster on the upper front beam (no adjuster on the lower beam). Also, if I take the bolt all the way out of the upper beam it does drop the car another inch or so, but I'm not sure what taking the bolt completely out does? Is that safe??? Thanks for any help.
Troy vanatic99@yahoo.com
more pictures here---> http://speedster.hopto.org

No different than installing the stock spindle. Might need a pickle fork or gear puller to pull out tie rod ends. Big nuts are maybe 21mm? I'd have wheel bearing grease and maybe new wheel bearing seals. Not sure if it will make your front brake lines short. After doing work you'll want to have it realigned.

Troy -

I remember hearing that some drop spindles might push your wheel off-set out more than 1", which may cause tire clearance issues (maybe not with your wide-body Speedy). I'm sure others more versed on this may chime in with some advice!

what kind of drop spindles are you looking at getting? CB?

I ordered the drop spindles from a local place here in central california called Century distributing. $139.54 total with shipping. According to the guy at Century, they are chromemoly vs. cast like most of the others out there. Supposedly, there is only about 1/4 inch of an offset which, on my superwide body, should not present any problem at all.
Troy

Hey Troy,

I order the EMPI spindles from Mid America Motor Works. Big Mistake! They pushed my wheels out 1/2" each side even though they advertise otherwise. At the end I was out $40 shipping and will never order anything from them again.
All spindles on the market will push the wheels out. I heard the CB's only push the wheels out 1'4". Since yours is the super wide body, you may not have clearance issue. I know Bruce Chow has them on his car, but he said it changed the steering radius.
Before you put them on, mark the eccentric nuts and ball joint on your stock spindles with a permanent marker, just in case the lowered spindles don't work out. Then you can put everything back together without having the car too far out of alignment.This will at least get you to an alignment shop.
Too bad your not local, we could put it all together on my lift.

Good luck Troy! Hope all goes well with the self install. It doesn't look to be a big job but you never know what can happen. Let us know how it turns out.

bc

Hey Troy, if your tackling the job ur self, Samba has a good pix by pix and explanation of a spindle job, look at forums how to lower my ghia. It gives you tools you need as well. Again, good luck!

bc

I received the drop spindles today and, taking some careful measurements it appears they will only off set my wheels by about 3/8". Taking another careful measure using a straight edge across my tire, it appears that I have 3/4" inch of clearance between my tire and my fender. Based on that and the fact that it looks pretty straight forward, I will tackle the job on Saturday.

Bruce. I found the article and this is the actual link to it. Thank you. I'm also listing one of the links to photos contained in the article, because they are VERY good, but anyone reading this should read the entire article.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?=95935&highlight=lower

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=64301


Troy

Correction to the first link above. Either of these should work.

http://tinyurl.com/2y64lp


http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=95935&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=lower

Ok, my drop spindle project is completed with only some minor issues. The passenger side came off just fine and was back together in no time, but the driver side was a different story. The inner and outer wheel bearings came off with the rotor on the passenger side, but the inner bearing stayed on the spindle on the drivers side and wouldn't budge. So I figured, here's my chance to buy a new tool and I headed off to Harbor Freight to buy a bearing puller. It didn't occur to me that a new bearing was only about $8.00, so I spent $20 on a bearing puller and headed home. The puller totally mangled the bearing and that was when I made a call to my local parts store and discovered that a new bearing was only $8.00. So I picked up the bearing and everything went fine from there on.
As I thought, I have about 1/2" of clearence between the tire and the fender. The 2.5" drop was a little too low for me, so I cranked it up about 1" with the adjuster on the upper beam (the only adjuster). The ride actually feels a little better to me now than it did before.
Now that my front end is down, I figured it would be a piece of cake to lower the rear, but there is no adjustment left. Any suggestions?

I don't know if you can lower your car more without your exhaust pipes suffering, Troy. You can install adjustable spring plates in the back, as I did. Check these out:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=566358

Hi Richard. That is what I already have and that is what I meant by "no adjustment left." They are cranked down all the way.

Sounds like you'll have to remove the spring plates and rotate them one or two notches on the torsion spring. Not too awful hard, but be prepared to cuss at least once or twice.

Hi Lane.
I've done a search, but didn't find any real specific instructions about how to take off the spring plates and rotate them. Do you know if there are any? Also, it appears that my car is not equal from side to side. The right is about 3/4 inch higher than the left. Will rotating the the spring plates help to get it level? How much time do you think this would take a shop to accomplish? It may not be worth my time if its a 30 minute job for them. Thanks for the help.

You should probably be able to level things up by removing them and making sure that you put them back on at equal levels. My car has swing axles rather than IRS, so I don't know if what I tell you will work, but it's really pretty straightforward.

1. Jack the rear up on both sides and remove the wheels
2. There should be three bolts connecting the spring plate to the axle. Remove them and push the axle out of the way. The length of the brake hose and/or e-brake cable may make this difficult. If so, you may have to leave the axle where it is for now.
3. Remove the four bolts holding the torsion spring end cover and remove the cover. It has a rubber grommet that may require a little force to get off.
4. Using some contrasting paint, mark a spot where the spring plate and the torsion spring mate so that you'll know where you started.
4. Prepare to cuss
5. Now you have to slide the spring plate off of the torsion spring WITHOUT pulling the spring out of the internal splines. There is one torsion spring (bar) per side located in the splines at the middle of the car. You really don't want the bar to come out at you may have a difficult time locating them correctly to keep the car even.
6. Once you get the spring plate off, rotate it a couple of splines and reinstall. This could involve a bit more cussing as it may be a tight fit. Be sure to make a correction on one side for your unleveled situation.
7. Reassemble everything else
8. Lower the car and adjust the ride height.
9. Once you get it level and at the height you want, get the whole car aligned front and rear.

Remember, this is for a swing-axle car. IRS is probably similar, but I don't know that for sure. Can some of the SOC gurus please correct any mistakes in the above description?

Lane wrote: "6. Once you get the spring plate off, rotate it a couple of splines and reinstall."

!!!DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!

Rotating the spring plate "a couple of splines" will move the rear end of the spring plate about 5 inches....is that what you really want? Will the screw/bolt adjuster give you enough adjustment swing after the spring plate is moved that much?

Better take a look at this height article first, before you start moving things: https://www.speedsterowners.com/knowledge/article.asp?id=214

If it doesn't come up, go to the "Knowledge" section and look up article 214.

I'm not sayin' that a couple of splines isn't the right thing to do....I'm just trying to get you to think about it a little before you start moving things around because you can throw things way off really easily.

gn

You sure about that? The inner splines are bigger, and would have that affect, but the outer ones are pretty fine - at least on mine. Anyway, it's gonna have a trial and error component give his asymmetry. I would be willing to bet one side is oriented differently on the splines from the other. Probably by one.

Ah hell, who'm I kidding. Gordon's always right ;-)

Inner = 2.7" at the axle

Outer = 2.4" at the axle

Correct combinations of inner/outer can give ~1/4" in either direction

Hi Gordon.
I hope you don't mind, but I have some specific questions about lowering and leveling my car and you appear to be the expert on this subject. Your postings have helped very much and I am very close to giving this rear torsion bar adjustment a go on my own. I installed the front drop spindles myself and I am pretty sure that with a bit more information I could do this job too, but I don't want to get in over my head when I could take it in to the shop and have it done for $200. On the other hand, I like doing this stuff and I could use the $200 on a lot of other things. Here is the current condition of the car.

Ground to fender measurements.
Left front 24 5/16" Right front 25 3/8" (delta = 1 1/16")
Left rear 24 11/16" Right rear 25 3/4" (delta = 1 1/16")

My goal is to have the car level from side to side and front to rear. For the car to be level front to rear, it needs to come down 1" in the rear based on measurements between the rocker panel in front of the door and at the rear of the door. Then, based on the measurements above, the right front and the right rear are both 1 1/16" higher than the left.

Can you tell me what you would do to get my car level all around, using the left front as the desired final height? Also, keep in mind that I have adjusters on the rear and they are totally screwed out now. It would be nice to have the ability to use them to adjust the ride height at the rear if I decide to change it at some future date. Additionally, it would probably all be easier for me if it was all done with changes to just the outer or the inner (which ever one is easiest) splines. Should the left side of my car be slightly higher to compensate for my 185 pound butt? If so, please factor that in as well.

Here's a link to some current pictures (with my Gird style bra) that clearly show the cars asymmetry. http://kvanasx.hopto.org/uneven.htm

I found this step by step guide with photos on the Internet. Is it accurate? http://www.meyersmanx.com/garage/garage_suspend.htm

Thanks for yours and everyone else's help as well.
Troy

Troy:

I see what you're trying to do....

Let me crank the numbers and I'll post something tomorrow.

gn

Thanks Gordon.

This is a VERY good question and answer article about adjusting rear spring plates. They are talking about raising a sagging rear end, but the reverse applies for lowering too.
http://www.geocities.com/vwresource/rear_suspension.html#adjust
Troy

Troy:

Just for the heck of it, I went out and measured my car with the following results:

- My tires are different sizes front and rear (205X16 front, 225X16 rear)

- All four fenders at the apex are 23-1/2

Gordon,

It might be worth noting that with a wide fender Speedster like yours the fender opening is similar front and rear so it makes sense to use the same measurement from apex to ground front and rear.

But, a person would want to use different measurements, front & rear, for a standard fender version.

I know you did this for Troy, but at some point someone else may use it.

Gordon -

I am HUMBLED by your wealth of knowledge on these cars. I also appreciate the comraderie of those on this site that easily share their build/tech experience! I learn something new everytime I visit!

Good luck with your project, Troy! I'm looking forward to seeing the results of your labor at Morro Bay!

Peace - Out

Hi Michael.
Actually, on my car, I don't think the fender apex will be the same height when the car is actually level. I think the rear fender apex will be lower than the front.
Troy

Jim.
I couldn't agree more with you about Gordon's knowledge and the comraderie on this site. I'm just sitting here sucking it all in for now, but I hope to be able to contribute as I gain more knowledge from the rest of the group. Thanks to all and I'll look forward to meeting all of you in Morro.
By the way, I have my car entered in a show up here at the end of March, in the city of Oakhurst. Oakhurst is a small mountain community that you drive through on the way to Bass lake and Yosemite when you come from the south. Here is the link:

http://www.southernyosemite.com/index1.htm

Troy

Troy -

Sounds like you're making good progress with personalizing your new ride!

I think your car will do well in that car show in Oakhurst (even though it isn't a 4x4 with gun-racks, winch, 10'ft whip antennae and twenty driving-lights mounted on the roll-bar!).

I've done several off-road excursions through the Sequoias and stayed in Oakhurst and Course Gold! Cool area!

I'm curious to see your car with a more aggressive stance in it's new 'lowered' mode!

Peace - Out!

Before Y'all sit there and give me a swelled (Pineapple) head, I have to point out a very minor error in my info above. Simply stated:

Down is up and up is down

I tend to think in terms of which way the body is going to go when I work with these damn things, and the body moves opposite to the direction you have to move the end of the spring plate, hence, down at the spring plate end moves the body UP and vice versa.

Just thought it might be nice to point that out before someone ends up with their car WAY up in the air and wondering what the hell that "Nichols" clown was thinking. OK, so I wasn't thinking of much, and the Green Tea I drink didn't help, either.........

This will probably look like the wreck of the Hesperus (I have never figured out how this site formats its' text), but here's a table taken out to 14 spline teeth: (Oh....and the "UP" and "DOWN" directions are correct in this table for the end of the spring plate):

Inner Outer Body
1U 2.673 1D 2.426 D .244
2U 5.346 2D 4.852 D .488
3U 8.019 3D 7.278 D .741
4U 10.692 4D 9,704 D .976
5U 13.365 5D 12.130 D 1.235
6U 16.038 6D 14.556 D 1.482
7U 18.711 7D 16.982 D 1.729
8U 21.384 8D 19.408 D 1.981
9U 24.057 9D 21.834 D 2.223
10U 26.730 10D 24.260 D 2.470
11U 29.403 11D 26.686 D 2.717
12U 32.076 12D 29.112 D 2.964
13U 34.749 13D 31.538 D 3.211
14U 37.422 14D 33.964 D 3.458

"U" = Up
"D" = Down

Decoder ring info for first row:

Inner: 1 tooth UP = 2.673" body movement DOWN

Outer: 1 tooth DOWN = 2.426" body movement UP

Resulting Body movement = Down .244" (a little less than 1/4")

Hope this helps Somebody!! (Hey, it was a rainy day, anyway!)

Thanks again Gordon. Received your email too. I plan to give it a shot this weekend.

Jim.
I'll post some pictures when I'm done, but I don't think it's going to be as low as you would like to see it...I just hate that nerf bar on the driveway scraping sound.
Troy

I gave the spring arm job a try today and I'm sad to report that it was just too difficult of a job for me. After removing the shock and the 3 bolts that hold the spring arm to the axle (IRS) I was unable to move the axle and brake assembly away from the spring arm so it could be lowered off of the lip. I'm not sure how so many others have been able to do it, but this is a job that will be worth paying $200 for the shop to do. Maybe its easier with a swing axle???
Troy...still ridin high in the rear!

Nope, it's about the same amount of pain-in-the-assedness on both swing axle and IRS cars. Takes a certain amount of shoving and pushing and leveraging things out of the way, but it can be done.

If it looks like it's beyond you, then, by all means, farm it out to someone more willing to lose some knuckle skin (or maybe a finger!!!) in the process. There is a potential for some real injury from a loaded spring plate for those unawares.

Sorry it didn't work out......

gn

Just had the torsion bars adjusted by a local VW shop and then had it all aligned. The car is now much lower and level from side to side and front to back and looks much better. It's ready for the Oakhurst Automotive Film Festival and Car Show on the 29th and Morro Bay next month. I'll post some new pictures soon. Thanks for all the help from everyone.
Troy

Troy -

Isn't it amazing how just a little lower stance gives your car a whole new (cool) look!?!

Looking forward to seeing that bad-boy in Morro Bay!