Dry sump Tank

I am.

I did it about 5 years ago. After looking and being disappointed with the available options, I made my own out of .080 Aluminum. The tank is in the passenger's side fenderwell , with the fill and dip-stick inside the engine compartment (like the 911 set-up). I'm filtering on the pressure side of the system (as I did when it was wet-sumped), and am using a BugPack pump.

I posted a blow by blow here while I was doing it, but I can't seem to find my pictures now.

Found it (click the text for a link):

Dry Sump Pain

Thanks for the link Stan, it's given me something to think about aswell as some ideas.

Intresting journey you've travelled to get to the present day. Have you seen the 123 distributor. Nice bit of kit. Something I'm pondering with.

I have. The ignitions I described were several permutations ago.

Check this out

Is that the sync link set up?

Looks like a SyncLink to me.  And... RabyDTM and... a bunch of plug wires!

Yep

Needed to get the engine back into the car so l crack on with the dry sump tank.

A few jobs was in hand before it could be fitted. A torque bar to help with the extra horses. I now have the Torque bar mocked up brackets welded and powder coated. What a pain in the ass but a worthy upgrade.  Also Heavy duty engine/gearbox mounts have been fitted.

Just waiting for a few fittings I've had to order that I've put away somewhere safe and now l carnt find the dam things . Then the engine goes back in... 

"Just waiting for a few fittings I've had to order that I've put away somewhere safe and now l can't find the damn things . Then the engine goes back in... "

That sounds EXACTLY like me...

I'm STILL looking for some gaskets that I ended up double-ordering just to get the engine back together.  

I'll be re-surfacing my shop benches this winter.  I'll probably find them in the middle of that project.

Yeah, Gordon, I know what that's like!

Richard- I can't tell from your pic whether you already have one, but a trans midmount goes really helps anchor the trans down. I believe Gene Berg invented the thing- 

Alb,

I've not got a trans mid-mount. Think you mention it to me on another thread. Always on my mind about it putting stress on the gearbox studs it mounts to?? Anyone have any probs with the mounting studs coming loose??? Or is this not the case.

Ive also seen the mid-mounts mounted on top of the frame horns rather than the bottom. What the reason for this?

It's not an issue, Richard. Gene Berg Ent. has been selling them for 30(?) years and I've never heard of the studs coming loose, trans cases breaking there or the mounts causing any problems at all. The case through that area is very strong.

It doesn't show in the pic above, but 2 brackets for the rubber pieces need to be welded to the frame horns. There is a similar mount that doesn't require welding and has polyurethane pads up against the bottoms of the frame horns, but it still allows the trans to rock side to side (and eventually tear up the front trans mount. The Berg mount stops all up/down and side to side movement.

I've never seen a trans mounted as you describe- got a pic?

Stand to be corrected regarding a top midmount. Just had a closer look, the gearbox picture is upside down with the midmount on top. 

You had me thinking there was a new mount out there I hadn't seen yet...

Pics of the Berg and Moore midmount installed- you'll notice that the Berg firmly anchors the transaxle in place, stopping all movement , where the Moore still has room to "move" and doesn't do the job. The Mendeola midmount is like the Moore, with black poly pads. I believe the Moore/Mendeola is cheaper (and there's no welding), but if you're going to spend the money, buy the Berg.

Many thanks for the pictures Alb. Helps to understand the differences.

I've noticed searching the web, Aircooled Net (top pic) do a similar Mid mount to the berg  with a big saving. Only difference l can see between them is one uses a Box section and the other  a Tube section. Or are we just paying for the brand name?

Here is the difference: The Berg unit is designed to replace the front (front of the car is front) trans mount. The other one is to supplement it. 

The Berg unit has a through bolt that fixes the cross bar to the "ears" welded on the frame horns. The bolt passes through those big cylindrical bushings. 90+ percent of the force the transmission imparts pushes UP on those bushings, because the trans is lighter than the engine and the whole engine is hanging off the rear mounts. When you hit the gas, the twisting motion pushes the transaxle up even more—and a little more on one side than the other. But there is some counter-motion and some side-to-side possible, particularly with a swing axle, which is not quite as firmly planted as the IRS.

The Moore style mount has a bolt that attaches that smaller bushing/biscuit to the cross bar, but does not go through the frame horn. The idea is to stop that upward motion so as to save the stock front mount from tearing up. And it does work, somewhat. (If you get that one, get a new front mount at the same time and install together). The other key difference is that the Moore unit is narrower than the Berg. See how the Berg has to be wider to reach those "ears?" Wider is better: spreads the load more.

I understand all this now, by the way, because (for no reasons I can recall now, let alone defend) I spent way too many hours a couple seasons back devising my own custom mid-mount system. I needed a sturdy rig to replace my front mount, because powertrain relocation obviated the possibility of using the stock mount.

Working alone in my own cold garage, I devised an ingenious solution that managed to capture the worst of both worlds: it is narrower than the Moore style but with it's own (sorely undersized) "ears" in which I housed a set of tiny rubber GM sway bar bushings to do the job the above manufacturers assigned to their much larger units. I placed bushings both below and above the ears in order to give full isolation. 

My solution, inadequate by any reasonable assessment, continues to give (somewhat) satisfactory service after two season's use.

The thing I don't like about the pad style mount is it still allows some movement, as it doesn't necessarily touch the bottoms of the frame horns in any car. Frame horn shapes aren't exactly the same through the years, and even with completely stock powertrains can become slightly "tweaked" with use. Without a midmount that properly locates and anchors the transaxle, a higher hp VW engine is capable of creating enough flex that eventually tears the front mount apart, and in extreme situations (think drag race launch) with more than 150hp will break the transaxle nose cone. The pad style mount, if it doesn't completely butt up against the frame horns on both sides will allow that movement (and I think the noise of those hard polyurethane pads constantly hitting the frame horns would become annoying after not very long).

Richard- The Berg midmount (GB 643) is actuallly $5 less (you go by the our/cash price in the catalogue) than the Aircooled.net/Strange Engineering mount. The Aircooled.net unit does look a little lighter, though. Or, you could make it out of aluminum (as a couple of locals have) and save 3- 3 1/2 lbs- my Berg mount (before I started drilling holes in it) weighed over 5 lbs and the aluminum units have come in at under 2 lbs.

And Richard- call me Al (think Paul Simon here; come on, you know the tune!)

PS- I know the pad style mount is substantially cheaper, but if it doesn't do the job you're throwing your money away no matter what the price. Buy the part that will do what you want it to do. Gene (when he was still alive) used to say "buy the best and cry once". If you think about it, that has more meaning today than ever...

Al it is. Thought is was but didn't want to offend ����.

Thanks for your reply guys. Gives me something to think about, the different versions etc.

Been doing a lot of reading up and still am covering these mounts from old posts on here.

After looking at the cost for a GeneBerg over here (€263) from Europe with postage l may even fab one up myself?? Just need to find some time. To much going on at the moment with the family/work and Christmas just round the corner.

It wouldn't be all that hard, Richard. Make it out of aluminum, as the steel one is like piling a couple bricks in the rear of the car. The vertical plate on my Berg mount is 1/4", which is way overkill (I'm drilling holes in it furiously!) I think even for aluminum. When it's time to do it, pm me for details. Al

Richard:  Looks like I did your homework for you back in 2014.  Might be a long read (I tend to write a lot) but LOTS of good info and why I chose the Berg Mid-Mount (and Rhino motor mounts):

https://www.speedsterowners.com...sion-mounts-1?page=1

Gordon l beat you to it but thanks for the link. Hopefully it'll give someone else a good read or recap even. Your old thread is what I've been reading, that's why I've not asked to many questions as you covered them in your thread.

Al, what my thoughts were to mount the ears inside the frame horns instead of the outside. This would reduce the bar length making it lighter and also the ground clearance. I know the box would have to come out to do this at some point but whilst I've got the engine sat on the garage floor, what the hell. Not even looked to see what room l have. Like l say only thoughts.

I take it the design and mounting the ears outside the horns meant it can be mounted and welded whilst the box is in situ. Which is a big plus and save £££$$$ if you have a engine and box in situ.

It also makes it easier to get the alignment for the brackets correct. And I want to see what you come up...

The welding in of the outer snubber brackets took, like, five minutes with the Berg.   Assemble everything with an extra washer or two between bracket and snubber, tack them, pull the snubbers and weld 'em in.  After they cool, re-assemble without the spacer washers and it self-preloads.  

Plus, this job gave my son a welding job to do so he can continue to criticize MY welds (believe me - that's not hard to do with my welds.....They hold OK, but usually look like Bird Poop).  

You can move the snubbers inside the frame horns, except: you have to fabricate smaller "ears" and use smaller snubbers. If you look at my links you'll see how tight the fit is. 

Mine actually fit about even with the bottoms of the frame horns. My 1x square tube means the whole rig isn't tucked-up much (or any) more than the Berg unit. 

If I had to do it again I'd just buy the Berg. May yet, even.

Made some progress with the dry sump tank. Been testing my model making skills and now have a 3D model of the tank that will work and fits, just.  Here's my model. Next to get it fabricated.

Is that Foam Core?

Very, very nice. Looks very similar to what I built out of Aluminum, after mocking it up with foam blocks and sheet-metal. A 3D printer would be very useful.

Man if I took it that far it'd be hard to resist just cutting the parts out of aluminum and going to work with the brazing rods. 

Yeah, but you would need a very close tolerance model first, and THAT is what he has created.

Gordon Nichols posted:

Is that Foam Core?

Gordon it is a type of foam card sheet that it was maids from.

Stan to give you created it was inspired by your tank, which gave me the direction. Just added my touch for it to fit with what l had.

edsnova posted:

Man if I took it that far it'd be hard to resist just cutting the parts out of aluminum and going to work with the brazing rods. 

To be honest l did think of doing it myself but only have a Mig and Gas welding equipment. A Tig welder is something l need to invest in but dint need to just yet. My friend welds aluminium for a living so l have gave it him to fab up. 

Whilst the tank is being fabricated l can start looking on the gearbox mid mount.

Guys I'm been looking at various mid transmission mounts and decided I'm going to fab one based on the Gene & Berg in aluminium, to shave a few pounds.

What I can't decide is. Looking at the Gene & Berg, what measurement should l be allowing for compression for between the bottom of the frame horns and the top of the tube going under the them. Does that make sense?? It seems looking at various pictures. The gap is differant on each set up. I'm thinking this is due to people using different gearbox/engine mounts which would also contribute to this. Whether your using stock mounts, eurothene or heavy duty. So l need some input from you guys that are running a Gene & Berg mount.

What l don't want to do is fab something up to give me maximum ground clearance only to find out, the tube running underneath the frame horns is hitting each other under load.

Your thoughts please.

The compression on these is in the bushing and it's not much. Remember, with the engine hanging on the trans, the gearbox already wants to go UP. When the motor is spinning fast it wants to twist it, and mostly it goes up MORE. So what you want to do is fab it up with a nice firm bushing That will, basically, keep it from moving much, if at all. 1/16 inch, maybe. Certainly not so much as 1/8.

If it were me (building another, better one, than I already made) I'd put the crossbar less than an eighth under the frame horn. Just assemble everything with the bushings snug, shim the crossbar slightly off the frame horns, then tack the "ears" that snub the bushing ends onto the frame horns. If you are worried about it banging on the frame horns when you put your foot in it, you could always shim the bushings out a little later. Or/and put a little bit of rubber between the crossbar and the horns.

Make sense?

Thinking about this overnight, it occurs to me that you still have the front mount attached. That means the transaxle is already properly located. Just fab your mid mount with as little gap under the framehorns as you dare, then bolt everything up and weld on the "ears." 

The Berg mid-mount, once assembled to the transaxle, misses touching the frame horns on my car by about 3/16" (on one side, I had to beat on the bottom of the frame horn to give it adequate clearance - I bet no two cars, after this amount of time, will be the same).  Here is the installation instructions for it from Berg:

When welding the snubber brackets to the frame horns, I installed the snubbers to the mid-mount arms with two fender washers between the mount arms and the rubber snubber, then lightly assembled the frame brackets to the snubbers.  Once they were ready I tacked the brackets to the frame, removed the snubbers and finished welding the brackets.  After everything cooled, I final assembled the snubbers without the washers to per-load them just a bit.  Works like a charm.

If it's installed as per the Berg instructions (using a washer each side for mockup, welding in the brackets to the frame horns and then taking them out for final assembly) and there's even 1/4" clearance between the bar and the frame horns, Richard, it can't move enough to make contact. Al

Thanks for the input. I was thinking it would need 1/2" - 3/4" gap, which would mean the bracket hanging low which was what l got concerned about.  So l could get away with 1/4".

Those instructions will be a big help when fitting Gordon, mine is an IRS which is mentioned in fitting. Has I'm starting from scratch l will avoid having to dimple the frame horns. 

Front gearbox mount is still present and will be kept to aid the midmount. Do some folks completely remove the mid mount?

I've ordered what materials l need so hopefully l l'll make alittle progress this weekend and report back.

Version 2 of the Berg 5 uses a different intermediate section and nose cone which interferes with the front mount and thus requires a slightly more complex midmount which incorporates the front mount, 

but normally you wouldn't remove it.

PS- Re our conversation earlier, I have a couple of ideas; I'll let you know later in the day. Al

A little progress whilst waiting for the tank.

Managed to make my own mid mount from aluminium based on the GB. A big saving in the weight department over the GB from what I'm told. It comes out at 1lb 12oz although l still need to get it welded up. Still I'm guessing it'll be under 2 lbs. Pretty straight forward apart from get the right profile around the gearbox.

Just need to source some rubber bushes and get some steel tabs folded to weld to the chassis. What size are the rubber bushes anyone to aid the search.