Electric heater

And where did you purchase it--model/make etc? I need heat/defrost (Ohio) and was thinking going the heater box way but if this will do heat and defrost well then I may have to look into it

Never did understand the heating/cooling industry's ratings. 40 amps at 14 volts is 560 watts. 560 watts is 1910 BTU/hr, not 40,000.

I'm sure it creates heat and works, but no way is it 40,000 BTU, on electric, in a car. Math doesn't lie, 40 amps x 13 volts=520 watts

          520 watts=1774 BTU/hr. according to online calculator.

I figure 13 volts, but it won't change appreciably even at 14.5 volts(which it probably ISN'T at since alternator/regulator output voltage DROPS when getting in the upper region of output) gets it up to 1979 BTU/hr.

 

My 55 amp alternator puts out 14.5 volts at a 20-25 amp load, and above 30 it starts to drop off to 12.9v above 40 amps. A 55 amp alternator is not designed to put 55 amps out for a long time, more like 15-20 for extended periods, like headlights(10 amps a pair, ignition(a couple to about 5) and my heater which only uses 5 amps(after glowplug start). At full or close to full output, that alternator will overheat and fail.

 

 By contrast, the Eber BN-2 I'm using is rated at 2000 kcal, which translates by about a factor of 4 to roughly 8000 BTU/hr. This is with the fan blowing and using 3 ounces of gasoline/hr. This ROASTS me out of the car top up(I had to install a digital thermostat), but works down into the 30s top down and half-tonneau on.

 

Electric heat is not really efficient at automotive voltage, but step it up to 110 or 220v AC, and the story changes. I have two 5000 watt 220v electric heaters in my garage, and they put out 17,000 BTU/hr. each, which can keep it warm and toasty in the shop with ease. Cost? About $15 of electric a weekend in the dead of winter, not too expensive for occasional use.

 

FYI, my heater would melt those plastic vents, the ones I bought warped and fell out. I'd like to find some metal ones without spending hundreds on airplane eyeball vents. Airplane parts are EXPENSIVE!

Well, good on y'all for being so darn 'smart' heat and energy wise. All I know is the darn heater works and quite well!...way better than any stock vintage VW heat exchanger...you want heat it is there now...not an hour or so later that I've experienced in most bugs and other VW's I've been around.

 

I just thought I'd share my experience with it having used it...oh well, that is what the messenger gets for sharing something here...LOL

 

 

 

While I don't think it'll ever get cold enough for me in California to need a heater like this I do appreciate you posting your experiences with this potentially valuable addition to your Speedster.

Have to agree with Danny.  Have used both electric and Eber in Yellowknife, northern Canada.  The electric, when ducted properly, was good to defrost windows and maybe take the bone chilling cold out.  The Eber got the car so toasty, even at minus 30, that it had to be turned down.  And don't bother with the ones that plug into your lighter, not worth it.  My electric had about 8 or 6 gauge wire to it In order to get 560 watts of heat.

 

 

Danny, they use those heaters in boats too.  I got most of my ducting from boat, sailboat usually, supply places or transport truck suppliers.

Sounds like an excellent product to take the chill off. I mean, right, 40,000 BTU is what you use to heat a two or three-car garage in a New England winter. 600 watts is what you need to dry a man's hair. And that should be just enough for a tonneaued or top-up Speedster on a 45F evening.

 

That is what I call a useful post, GR.

Here's the thing: If you can stop air from getting into the car, it doesn't take much to heat it up. An average adult body at rest throws about 400 btu/hr into the surrounding space. So, the electric heater in question produces about as much heat as 4 or 5 people sitting in the car.

 

If it's all closed up, with no air leaks-- that might just be enough to be "toasty" on a mild late-winter day. However, the frame of reference most of us have is hot water (in our DD) or gasoline heaters, which produce a LOT more heat. How much heat is enough? That's going to be a function of your expectations, and how tight the car is.

 

Closing up the big air leaks is more than 50% of making the car warm.

My boys above have said it all, saving me the trouble: no way a 12v car system makes 40,000 btu/hr.  Somebody has slipped several decimal points there.  Not sayin' it doesn't work, 'cause obviously, it does.  Here is another plan: use the VW heater boxes; insulate the duct run under the car from back to front; put electric heat in the seats; keep the car in the garage when it's cold outside; if you have to, or get caught out, wear a nice jacket and hat, w/ earmuffs even (or steal Gordon's Turkish fedora, or whatever the heck that thing is).  Works for me.

 

From your link, lower on the page, this chart shows the 40-amp model making 8000 BTU's.

 

 

 

 

I'd think, with a 40-amp continuous load, that a 55-amp alternator wouldn't keep up with the car's other electrical needs and that the battery would start discharging.

 

 

Could we see how/where you have it mounted and path of hoses? Is it run to defrost? Showing some interest in the product and you have my attention. How did you switch it--dash-under dash etc?

 

I like the idea of Instant heat

I think it's pretty cool, Gary. Do you have any pics if it installed?

Wow, didn't mean to wad up the panties on this. I was only trying to say a few things, maybe prevent somebody from being underwhelmed after they purchase. I wasn't trying to prove how smart I am. This subject has been covered and beat to death years ago.

 

First, 40K BTU is a pipe dream, in a car, powered by electricity. Not gonna happen.

 

40 amps is a LOT of current in a car. I'd say 6 gauge wire or maybe 4, depending on length from battery. And if you do run it a while, buy a spare alternator and keep it on the shelf. You'll burn through brushes and overheat it quick.

 

Less than 600 watts is 1/3 of a household hair dryer.

 

8,000 BTU, not possible, less than 2000, tops, at 40 amps, in a car. So the brochure/specs are BS.

 

And I might have a little experience with heat in these cars, about 5 years and 15-20K miles worth. Stan is right, sealed up well, top up, you don't need a lot. Top down/half-tonneau is speed, wind, AND temperature dependent. Very cold(30), in traffic, with full blast, you'll roast. At 30mph same conditions, usually comfortable. 40, still OK. Above that, it gets cold, the heat is just not staying in the car much at all. Mine is ducted from under the dash, aimed at approx. crotch/waist level. Holding the wheel Italian-shuffle style gets your hands in the heat and mostly out of the wind.

 

No matter what, you need a hat that covers your ears and a jacket to flip up over the back of the neck. Or a leather Cory-helmet.

 

I don't have them in my Spyder, but LOTS of Spyders have the carbon-fiber electric butt-warmers installed. I hear good things, and for about the same money as Gerry's heater, they are functionally invisible and most are happy with them.

 

 

 

 

I have a set of the full, seat and back, carbon-fiber seat warmers still in the Cobras seats...purchased and installed them about 10yrs ago...Drivers side crapped out about 6yrs ago and the passenger side quit last fall. When they worked they worked very well...but they sure do not last long IMO. Granted technology may have improved on them over the years but after spending close to $500w/shipping for the pair I'm not sure it was really worth it for the maybe 10-12 days they were actually used each year when it was cold enough to warrant their use.

 

I haven't removed them to see if they are repairable, just pulled the fuses and disconnected the electrical connections. It's a PIA to pull the seats, take off the upholstery just to get at them, then have to reinstall the upholstery...I can live with a cold butt...LOL.

Sure glad all I need on a cold day is a sweat shirt and scull cap!

From the MUSBJIM 'Low-Tech, Cheap Solutions' file; 12-volt electric blanket that plugs into your power take-off (cigarette lighter outlet). Plug this bad-boy in when you need it then stow away when you don't. Draws 4 or 5 amps.

 

This link for demonstration purpose only but I think they are available at Wal-Mart or your local auto parts store. 

 

http://www.12volt-travel.com/1...c-blankets-c-90.html

The heater I have is connected directly to the front mounted battery, both pos and neg, with 6 gauge wire with about a 12'' run. It is mounted under the hood with the air hoses going into the firewall terminating just inside, thus blowing the air toward your legs...hot air rises. When I used it the other day in 40* weather it heated up the cockpit just fine and I ended up turning it down to low heat/low blower in just a few blocks...it was quite toasty under the passenger side tonneau.

 

The unit draws 40amps on high heat and blower settings and less at lower heat and blower settings, maybe in the 15-20amp +/- range, depending upon settings. Before we did the install we bench tested it with an amp meter hooked up to it and ran it thru various settings. At low blower, low heat it was drawing 15amps.

 

If you drive in 30* weather constantly, demanding high heat I'm sure that eventually the alternator may fry, yet if it is just used to take the chill off on spring and fall mornings I'm not sure you'd have an issue because it would not be run that long. I guess time will tell for me.

 

Controls are dash mounted, rheostat for heat control, the toggle switch is for blower control. My dash was hacked when one of the previous owners decided to dash mount a stereo...so adding the heater controls there was not a big deal for me...

 

 

        Buying one of those for my wife. Me, I don't need no stinkin' blanket.

Gerry, I hear you about the seat heaters. Best to get the carbon fiber done when you order the car! They have dropped in price quite a bit. When I was looking at them, they were around $200 a pair, now I see they are under $100. I wonder what the quality is? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hi-off...%26sd%3D170710469601

"Wow, didn't mean to wad up the panties on this."

 

Not sure if any panties really got bunched up or not but here's my take.  Some guys are totally into the "science" behind things and others just want to know if an idea works or not without having to know all the numbers. I understand BTUs and a lot of the other science stuff but I couldn't give two hoots if something were 4 BTUs or 40,000 BTUs. If I were interested in a heater and you told me you had one in your car and that has worked for several trouble-free years that's good enough for me.

 

I've gotten a lot of valuable info and insight from your previous posts, as well as other people's posts. Sometimes I wonder how someone even knows all that stuff?? Other times I quit reading people's posts because I don't need to how something works....just that it does. I'd like to go to sniper school but I fall asleep reading bullet trajectory data, drag coefficients, powder dynamics etc. so I don't go.  And I've rarely ever put my cross-hairs on something and not hit it so apparently I can hit stuff without knowing that information.

 

Listen, if you want to buy a heater that puts out 1/3 of a modern hair dryer, that's fine. It is the equivalent of 7 or 8 tea-light candles for heat output. Basically in a long and roundabout way, I'm saying the heater is going to be a disappointment. I guess I could have said it WITHOUT all the numbers, but I like to back up what I say.

 

Peace, happiness, and lots of smile-miles in whatever you do and drive.

Good luck if you install 'butt warmers' Danny...just sayin'

Objectively, a 500W heater isn't very big. Subjectively, one person can feel it works fine, another may find it inadequate depending on local conditions and their own personal cold tolerance. The math is just to argue the objective part and temper expectations, no one is arguing the subjective part.

 

To continue the gun analogy: guy buys a gun that's advertised as "accurate to 10000 yards" and says it works perfectly for plinking targets at 100 yards. We're arguing the gun can't actually shoot 10000 yards, not that it's no good for target practice.

Run the heat directly to the rear bulkheads next to the seats. Fantastic, almost instant heat at little expense.

> On Mar 26, 2015, at 9:36 PM, SpeedsterOwners.com <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

I have hi flow heat exchangers on my car and I'm using hoses from them to the pvc pipes that run in the rockers, not the channels running through the frame, so nothing out of the ordinary.  On a 40 degree day, I took the car out and in about 2 blocks I started to get decent heat. It kept getting warmer until after a few miles I got nice warm air BLASTING out of the vents. It wasn't hot but the volume of the air from the engine fan was amazing. Since so much warm air was coming out it heated the car up well even without side curtains. I had heard so many bad things about the high flow heat exchanger and bad VW heat that I was pleasantly surprised at how well it worked. I doubt it would work below 30 degrees even with side curtains but I won't be driving then any way.

I may be wrong, but I think those 12-volt electric blankets I mentioned put out 40,000 btu's. 

I think that SoCal sunshine landing on your bare noggin when you are cruisin' the PCH puts out about 40,000 BTU -- so you better be careful . . .

I believe you are correct-a-mundo, El Frazoo! My rather large noggin (affectionately coined as Pineapplehead by a certain crazed Viking driving a Transformer speedster) does in fact put out 40,000 btu. Your mileage may vary! 

Me, some ice cold Coronas, some hard-boiled eggs, broccoli, and some bean burritos and I'm putting out 40,000 BTUs and making my own seat heaters at the same time.  How about that?

Bob, you meant to say 'pickled eggs' and forgot to mention the chili peppers and curry menudo! 

 

That's what I like about this site. I learn something new every time I come here.

 

 

I'm running seat bottom heat.....  Does quite well at temps in the damp 40s. for 4 to 6 hour trips....   Keeps the core temp up....

If I did all that it'd blast me right out of my Speedster faster than James Bond's Aston Martin DB5.

 

Links to other SOC 12 volt heater discussions, specifically the quartz heater manufactured by DC Thermal.

 

https://www.speedsterowners.com...2#386497345259415532

 

https://www.speedsterowners.com...605#2135445019505605

 

https://www.speedsterowners.com...981#2135445019523981

 

https://www.speedsterowners.com...754#2135445019594754

 

My 2 cents.  My current Speedster has an A1 sidewinder and no heat exchangers and I won't be installing a 12 volt heater, but I am considering the blanket and seat options.  Keep in mind that I live in California, virtually never put my top up or run with a half tonneau, very rarely ever need heat, but it's nice on a cool morning or evening.

One more thing.  If you do have heat exchangers and have not done the frame bypass, do it before you buy a 12 volt heater.

 

Thanks Gerry. I don't need the butt warmers. However, the 150 F air blowing on the "jewels" makes it all good. Just sayin'

It is far cheaper and easier to simply bypass the frame with the heating ducts from the exchangers. I did this mod and enlarged my windows to actually almost seal. It takes 5 minutes to get heat but after 10 minutes I have to turn down the STOCK heater valve. I am toasty warm at 25F. Only downside is you can see the ductwork under the rear fenders. Also the engine noise increases in the cabin. I usually just tell folks when asked what the hoses are for that they are the intake to the intercooler. 

I'm not sure how you routed the hoses that caused them to be visible, but the pictures in this link show the hose routing that I used.

https://www.speedsterowners.com/topic/my-heater-tubing-melted?reply=2135445019604082#2135445019604082