electrical gremlin

OK, I'm stumped. I turn the key and the idiot lights go on, but the starter won't turn over. I pull off the rear wheel, take off the hot lead from the ignition key to the starter solenoid, clean the contacts, put some dielectric grease on them and it starts up. It used to be that this happened once or twice a year, but now it happens at least once a week. Someone told me that when the car warms up there's a voltage drop on the line to the starter and I need a relay in that circuit, but that doesn't make any sense. This happens when the car's cold, hot and any time in between. Can you gurus help me out?
Many thanx-

May be the contact surfaces of the starter solenoid have pitted, or the armature is sticky.....When you mess with the wiring, it causes a temporary "repair"......Next time it occurs, see if you have voltage to the small wire terminal on the starter, if so, the starter, or solenoid, is probably the problem... Hope this helps...

Before you do all that, please forward some more info:

When you hit the key, exactly what happens??

That means anything and everything.

Like, does something snap? Does it do absolutely nothing? Do you hear a sizzle anywhere? Does it at least TRY to start?

All this info helps.

Thanks.

gn

It most likely needs to be pulled off. Disassembled . put in some new brushes whiles its down and then clean and grease the bendix.

Be carful when popping the bendix up to expose the bearing balls they can fly out, when they are bone dry and in need of grease'

( but a dry bendix is stiff and wont engauge correctly..) I have even seen it make a starter keep spinning. or just not at all

But worn brushes can do it to. To confirn that tap the starter case with a hammer while someone works the switch (one peck and it takes off) you have your answer..

The VW soleniods are ajustable too, But you have to unsolder the leads on it to take it apart to clean and ajust it . I have even shimmed the contact studs with brass washers from the hardware store to take out the contact wear. GOOD AS NEW and I'd much rather have it than aftermarket crap..

Gordon: Absolutely nothing happens. The idiot lights go on and nothing else. No sound, no activity at all- zero, zip, nada. Sorry I can't say more, but that's it in a nutshell.

probably a bad spot on the starter, in a pinch u can put car in 2nd and with key OFF rock the car a bit and it might start. i would just put a new starter in and be done with it.

I had a couple of weeks a few years ago where I needed to go under the rear right wheel and smack the solenoid 3 times to get it to start. New starter fixed that. Easy enough to change if you take your time.

Barnco-what is accomplished by the "method" you posted? You talking about the Bendix?

bumping the car in gear sometimes can move the starter just a bit to get it off the bad spot, had a truck and it worked everytime until i replaced the starter

Yeah, I was wondering about that, too......

If the starter is sitting there, "turned off" with the Bendix drive disengaged, no amount of "rocking" the vehicle in gear with the engine not running is gonna affect the starter, unless the Bendix is stuck engaged. If that's the case you should hear the starter turning over once the engine starts (it makes a funny noise). If the Bendix is NOT engaged or stuck and everything is "off", then the starter isn't connected to anything - it's just sitting there. When the key is turned to "start", the solenoid pushes a gear forward on the starter shaft to engage with gear teeth on the engine flywheel to start the engine. Once the engine starts and the key is released, the solenoid returns to rest and disengages the gear teeth so that the starter motor can stop turning.

(That whole mechanism was invented by Vincent Bendix, way back at the beginning of the 1900's.)

On the other hand, if absolutely NOTHING happens (no clicks, buzzes or pops), then it can probably be safe to say that the starter solenoid has had it and it's time for a new/rebuilt starter assembly (starter and solenoid come as a complete unit). If it clicks, once, when the key is turned to "Start" and nothing else happens, then you may have a "dead spot" or high resistance place on the starter armature. Whenever the starter motor stops turning on that spot it can't make electrical contact the next time you hit the key and nothing happens. It's random, too, and can be affected by trying it multiple times (sometimes you might overcome the resistance) or by vibration (like hitting the side of the starter with a hammer to jar it).

If, when you turn the key, the solenoid clicks rapidly (chatter) but the starter doesn't engage, that often means that you have either overall low voltage, or high resistance between the key switch and the solenoid such that there is insufficient energy going to the solenoid to make it fully engage.

If the builder used an original (donor) VW wiring harness, then there might be a voltage drop between the key switch and the solenoid which often causes the solenoid to buzz or click, rather than make a big click and engage the Bendix drive (this was very common with 6 volt systems - less common with 12 volt systems). THAT can be cured with a relay close to the solenoid (the key switch drives the relay, and the relay drives the solenoid).

Hope this helps.....

gn

Again,, Guys Im just tring to teach ya how to fix your original stuff. and avoid the aftermarket junk. A New Bosch starter will be pricy .

What ya got to lose..2 hrs of your time. You can get a rebuilt one and leave it in the box, and give this a try first . I have Tiltan reduction drive starter on my elcamino that had a simular problem. I Bought a Brand new one aftermarket and it lasted 3 days I dismantle the old one an fixed it. that was 3 years ago and it's still perfect.

I boxed the new one up and sent it back for a refund of $295.27 and a new Bosch 4 brush heavy duty starter will be nearly that much.

I'm copying your advice, Barry, and will try it this winter. My starter seems to be developing a "dead spot"--wouldn't start once this summer, missed on the first try two other times--and your thinking makes sense to me. My car has a FO case from 1966. Why change that baby with only 36k miles, right?

Ed!! ThanK you. I'd bet its' just worn brushes. WHen you take it down ,

Have 4 new brushes and 2 extra curl springs handy. Many old starters have the places for the 4 brush heavyduty set up.

It's a smart upgrade, that requires only soldering on 2 more leads to the 2 extra brushes. jumped from the other ones

(Makes for a Much more reliable starter)