Engine bay sealing

Ok so I have this new (to me) CMC and it is very nice, however, one thing puzzles me. That is that the engine bay is not sealed around the engine tin. That is, there is no sheet metal or tin between the rounded bottom tin (where the heater hoses go thru) and the frame or body. In the manual, there is a whiff of a referece to this but no details or info.

I know from my VW days of yore that sealing the exhaust heat from the enging bay was critical for proper engine cooling and I am worried that it may be overheating. it runs about 220-230 under normal extended driving. It is a '71 motor, 1800cc with a doghouse shroud (i think). It came with an external oil cooler and fan which is not yet installed. (more about that later) . So does anyone have an opinion on this. I would love to attend the Napa rally to compare the car with others but am a little worried about the distance and damage.

Apart from the appearance it will also aid in engine cooling I guess.
I manufactured a new set as the ones that were supplied with my car were not up to scratch. I fabricated a rear bolt on tinware with the same conture of the rear engine tin, the hardest part was forming the small channel so the original VW rubber could be used. The two other side sections are also bolt on to the body box section by way of "rivnuts" and 6mm bolts.

Installing the engine bay rubber seal would be a good idea. I'm in the process of sealing my engine bay, but I'm having a heck of a time getting a good seal around my 911 shroud. The standard beetle tin does not fit well, and some hot air gets through. Luckily, the 911 fan pushes a lot of air. I'm wondering why you need an external cooler with the motor you have. The dog house style oil cooler should be able to cool an 1800 cc motor. I've got an external cooler/fan with my set-up, because the 911 shroud does not have an oil cooler. To me, it's just too many extra things to worry about; oil lines, fans, thermostats, keeping the lines away from the header etc.
Ron

When my older IM arrived there was no sheet metal around the normal engine tin. If you dropped a wrench it would hit the exhaust system. Sigh. Do your engine and yourself a big favor and fabricate some patterns and cut sheet metal to fill in that open area. While at highway speeds during mild weather your engine may not suffer, but once you get into stop-and-go traffic temperatures will spike.

Do a search in this forum. I think you will find some answers in an earlier thread. I fabricated tin to get within about 1/2-1" of the tin on the engine and then sealed the two together with a foam seal for a VW bus. The bus seal is extra wide and is heat resistant.

Jerome

Thanks for the feed back. I am definately going to make up some panels. Was thinking maybe aluminum but how thick is good. Jerome, was that foam a stock bus rubber or something aftermarket. a little flex seems like a good idea, rather than rigidly attaching it to both sides. Where did you get it.

Ron, the cooler came as part of the deal. Don't know if I will install it. No instructions (seems to be an empi part) and can't see where it would hook up, the hose flange (?) that hooks to the engine is triangular with three bolt holes. The engine has an auxillarly oil filter attached below the pulley and I think it is supposed to go between the block and the filter. I forget what was there originally. As I said, I know nothing about the builder or whats inside the engine except what i was told. At some point I am going to pull it and investigate but I would like to drive it for awhile. So what is a good running temp? I have seen it hit 240 on load.

So how do you search the forum. I have trouble bringing up the older files.

Peter, what make is yours. maybe I could use the panels you rejected. at least they would be good for a pattern.

Jay: My CMC was the same way. You could see right thru to the ground.
The heat from the exhaust would vapor lock the fuel lines. I bought a kit
from John at JPS. The sheet metal comes cut to fit and just rivets or screws into place. A nice long piece of foam type seal comes with the kit also. The cross section of the seal looks like an "H".
BD

The engine seal that fits between the tin work is from a VW bus The engine seal very simple to "tuck in" and is heat resistant

Alan Merklin

Is this the bus engine seal rubber you're talking about?
store.cip1.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=VWC-111-813-705-A&Category_Code=03-08-04

Ron

Ah, good info. BD: I will call JPS on Monday, sounds like the easy and quick fix. (by the way that is my old nickname "bd" as in bdcruzer (Santa Cruzer that is)

I have added a few pictures of my engine compartment in my Jogyver CMC project file. I am in the works sealing it off with .043" aluminum. It is amazing what an aluminum siding brake can do with this stuff. My neighbor is a home remodeler with plenty of tools.
Joe S.

Joe: Nice clean looking fab work! Where do the red bars coming down
each side connect to? Are they structural to the frame?

BD
(Message Edited 7/27/2003 8:53:59 AM)

The red bars support the rear end/ frame. I noticed that the back end drooped. My driver's door would also open after hitting a bump. So I am in the process of building a chassis to add support. It is very solid so far.I am building a custom roll bar that will follow the contour of the roof line and tie into the chassis. The speedster kit roll bar is too square making it odd looking. We couldn't find anyone that could bend long radius curves or an ellipse. So we made up a wooden template that we will used to bend the tube around. We will still have plenty of room for our kids to sit in back seat once we a finished. I'll post some more pictures soon.
Joe S

Joe, very nice work. You might want to make templates of the braces. others might want them. the aluminum looks great, nice upgrade. Is it screwed to the engine tin or alowed to float. I see no rubber. I'll pose that question again: is it good to allow flex between the body and the engine to allow for twisting forces or not?

Jay, The aluminum is seated beneath the engine tin and is not attached to the engine tin. The aluminum has some flex so it will not be affected by the torque of the motor.
Joe S.

I went the way of the original rubber seal so as there was no metal to metal contact between the engine tin and the engine bay tinware, you will quickly get very bored with the squeeking and so on at idle as the engine moves about. If you have the time, drop the engine out and fit a some engine bay paneling in as well as Joe S and myself have done, looks great. Check it out in the files section under "Downunder Speedster".

(Message Edited 7/28/2003 7:18:45 AM)

O.K. So call me a little crazy. I have opted to go without the tins and my car 02 VS with a 1641 has been running great since new. I check the oil temp often and it is ALWAYS below 210 F.
Just one man's tale
-Wil

Peter: checked out your files and that is some awsome work. really like the look. did you put sound proofing behind the aluminum? could be a winter project. time is the enemy right now and I am more concerned with the enginge temp. noone has commented on proper running temps. Is your car a track only. like the look a lot.

Peter: I also saw your breather setup and am curious. I have seen some post on this but no explanation. The breather set up on my engine is non-existant. the tube next to the oil filler that would go to the air cleaner is plugged and there is only the one out the bottom (it seems to have a little oil coming from it) There are no inlets on the aircleaners. what is the preferred set up and whats the best breather box to get?

I didn't soundproof but I would if I was to do it again! Use something like thin (1/4" or less) sound mat of some sorts under the aluminium, should keep the noise down. The breather (black thing)is a quick copy of an "356A" breather with a hidden -8 stainless steel flexible hose that goes to a breather box mounted on the rear firewall out of sight. (I wanted to have the engine bay look kinda period) I will eventually put a couple of breather lines from the rocker covers as the blowby increases but it is fine for now.
That orange object mounted on the fan housing is the Fram oil filter from a 356, you could convert one of these to a breather box and that would suit the look of the car...look on ebay under Fram filters
cheers.
(Message Edited 7/29/2003 1:02:45 AM)

Two examples of simple breather boxes are listed below:
store.cip1.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?

They are from California Imports, but most air cooled VW shops/stores carry them.
You really should fix your crankcase ventilation problem. A simple solution is to run a line from your breather tube to a breather box (like the ones shown above) and then to one or both of the carbs. Because I've upgraded to a fairly potent 2110 cc motor, I've also vented my value covers. I haven't run a line to my carbs yet and I may not. I'll have to see how my system works, first.
Ron

Ron, The kit looks good but CIP is out of everything. Do these breathers do anything to separate out the oil fumes or just dump it back into the carb. Does pressure build up that much in the valve covers? I also need to find a fitting that will attach to the carb (ones I've seen go in the top which means drilling it out) I am going to the local VW store tomorrow to check what they have. need to see some of this stuff in person before buying.

Peter, yeah I like the oil filter look. had one on my '57 356 back in the 60'. (word was you could stick rolls of toilet paper in them for a filter, think I tried it once, don't think that engine lasted long)seems like a fun idea, I will check for them. As usual tho Gene Bergs site says that everything not made by them is no good for the engines. so confusion reigns. Jay

For another breather box check out this one on Samba:
www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/index.mv?photo+200307081956009116

I didn't connect my breather box to my carbs because I did not want to drill a hole in the top of my air cleaner, and when the breather box drains to the carb you always get a bit of oil in the air cleaner (at least I do).
I vented my valve covers on the recomendation of my builder. He's a beetle drag racer, so maybe it's overkill, but it was relatively easy to do. The California kit (CB also carries it) has the needed hardware for drilled valve covers.
One of the owners of Airspeed, a VW store out here, has a big (94 x 82) turbo charged motor in his bug. He uses the cheaper Empi breather box and says that it works fine.
Ron

I too purchased a speedster without engine tin all around. My type 4 engine ran cool enough, but the amount of dirt ingested into the engine compartment was just not acceptable. A minor oil leak in a CV joint really served to emphasize the dirt problem. I too used standard foam bus seals combined with my own aluminum sheeting. It was fun fabrication. Sealing is difficult because I have a fiberglass vertical cooling shroud (not Porsche, not DTM)

Next time, the cooling shroud gets a horizontal ink line all the way around at the engine tin level. On that ink line I will glue or glass or rivet a horizontal aluminum ledge all he way around the shroud, perhaps one inch wide. Either the tin or the bus "H" seal will attach directly to the ledge. One thing to remember when doing a mod like this, be sure you can take it out easily, because sooner or later you will need to !!