Engine build help . . .

I could use a smidge of help with the engine that;s going into the Fiat, I picked up a small handful of "new" items and could use some knowledge of how they might work together. This is the build sheet so far:

CB Performance heads-(44 MAGNUM PLUS, 42 x 37.5mm S/S valves, Dual Super Rev Springs, Chromoly Retainers, and Sure-Grip Locks (cut for Mahle 94mm bore.)

Scat Mini-Stroker crank-74mm counter weighted and balanced.

Engle W120 cam and lightweight lifters-I also have an Engle W110 cam, a Engle VZ15 cam, and an Engle FK8 cam, if anyone feels that one of these is a better choice.

Mahle 94mm barrels/pistons-standard non-stroker set.

Chromoly push rods.

Stock ratio rockers on solid shafts-I have 1.25 and 1.4 rockers as well, but I doubt that the dual springs and 120 cam would like them very much.

CB Performance Uni-Tech rods-milled for stroker, balanced, standard length.

Mallory electronic distributor, box, coil and wires.

Full flowed case with full JayCee oiling system.

The induction will be either a side draft 44 Weber DCOE, or a set of Kadrons with 44mm venturies. I have a new Air Research turbo with a Holley 450 two barrel for later on, not sure if the Engle 120 cam will work with it though, so I'm holding it back right now until I can get a bit more info.

There are a bunch of other little this and thats as well, straight cut gears and the like, but these are the basic broad strokes of the build. Wondering if I need to add anything or adjust something to keep a balance.

Lemme know.

You're going to need 100/1000th shims for under the cylinders. 74mm stroked crank is 5mm longer than stock thus the increased stroke is 2.5 mm's (1/2 up and 1/2 down) this equates to 0.098425" which is just shy of 1/10th of an inch. If you don't install the shims, the pistons will raise above the top of the cylinders.

I have some 90 shims for it, I'll get a set of 100s just in case. I have Shorty massaging the heads just a bit for me, he's also doing all of the math.

before you buy shims for the stroker - determine your target deck / comp ratio

deck target ~.045? you probably won't want to go lower than 0.04 (although many guys run 0.03 which is too tight IMO)

with a turbo are you planning higher than 8:1 static?

I just started getting the engine going for the speedster we picked up this last summer. After talking with some VW builders in the area (We have a lot of them) I was made a wear of a few things, 1.25 rocker will decrease load on the valve train and increase performance. Going with the smaller lift duration can be increased using the 1.25 rocker. I have the 44 IDF's, CB 044 heads with 1.25 rockers, 94mm P&C and 84mm crank. CB offered up one of their other grinds over the 110 and 120 with a longer duration to get the most out of the engine with the majority of the power from 2000 to 5000 RPM. Send them the engine spec and they will help find the right cam for you. I'm Very happy with these guys.

Steve the other half of Angela

You have the makings of a pretty nice 2 liter (2054 actually) there. Is the crankshaft forged or cast? If you post a pic of it on the Samba someone will be able to tell you. Show the parting lines; they will either be wide or fine and I forget which is cast or forged. The heads have the potential to produce 170 hp, so this thing could be a bit of a monster without the turbo! Of course it all depends on the compression ratio and how high you're willing to wind it.....
And that brings us to cams; the secret is to pick a cam/rocker combo that gives the powerband you want and compliments the heads, intake and exhaust. The Engle W110, when used with 1.25 rockers has the ability to rev to 6000rpm with power, be a stump puller and with .490" valve lift, to make fair use of the heads. The W120 (again with 1.25's) will go to almost 6500 (6300? 6400?) and with this size motor still have a ton of bottom end/lower midrange. It would be nice to see a little more lift and get a little more of the heads' potential, but either choice would be definitely fun! The FK8 is designed for 1.4 or 1.5 rockers, peak at 6500 (or a little more), and with about .040" more lift than the previous choices, make a little more all around power.

The VZ15is designed for class racing with minimum motor mods and is typically very hard on parts (lifter bores, guides, springs, seats), has harsh ramps (can't be used with 1.25's) and doesn't even have as much lift as the W110/1.25 combo. I wouldn't consider it, given your other choices.

I believe some Kadrons come with 44mm throttle plates; I'm guessing that's what you may have? You'll have to talk to AJ Sims (Low Bugget- look at his feedback on the Samba before sending him your credit card #) or Jeff at Kaddie Shack (advertises on the Samba) as to what your carbs need to work. At the very least you'll need bigger venturis, throttle shafts bushed, different jetting, and maybe bigger throttle plates. Add it all up; for what some 44IDF's cost it may be worth it to sell the kads and spring for new carbs. Compression: for the W110 should be 8.75-9:1, W120 9-9.25, and the FK8 9.25-9.5. Fuel distribution will be better with Webers or Dellortos (or HPMX's or??) and can run the higher end of the #'s, with kads stay closer to the low end. A 1 5/8" exhaust will be the right size to make the most all around power.

To cam a motor to take full advantage of a turbo quite often takes a cam ground on 112 lobe centers; I'm assuming the cams you have are all on 108 lobe centers for naturally aspirated combos. There is more to a good turbo combo than just taking the carbs off and mounting the turbo (I know the compression should be lowered), so my recommendation is to build it with carbs and the see it it's enough. I'll leave the turbo recommendations to someone more knowledgable.

Hope this helps. Al

All of you, thanks a TON ! ! !

As for deck height, compression ratio and timing, Shorty already ran a program on the various cams and has it locked down. I'm going NA on this build, save the turbo for the 1835 when that one come up. Of course, the tendency is to go crazy deck height and compression for power, but I want this to run on 93 octane period, NO additives no racing fuel, so gotta back down a smidge.

I guess that the 120 cam is the one here, I have the 1.25 rockers (Pauter) on solid shafts already, so why not. Any one know if this rocker/cam will like the dual springs in the head? I've heard opinions on both sides of the question.

Since a cam only runs around $120, is there another "PERFECT" cam that I would be better off with? I could save the 120 for another build. Or, maybe the 1.4 rockers rather than the 1.25 set. More lift . . .

The KADS were just about the last set to make it out of AJs shop before things "changed." They have the 44 plate and larger venturies, additional raised vents and vacuum porting. The jets were matched to the old 1914, so they'll work to get things rolling, but aren't really correct. Got any numbers on what I should changes then over to?

I have a set of 40 IDFs that I could clean up and make use of. Meybe try to find some DELLS . . . Webers scare me too much. I also have a set of those WAY funky dual Bug Spray carbs on the gigantic manifolds. Plus a Johnny's Four Play just for kicks. Maybe?

Regardless if anyone has any additional info or answers, I REALLY appreciate all of the help so far. With just a pile of parts, it's hard to know if a decent engine will result. So far, it seems like it might.

Thanks !

TC

With anything over .430" valve lift and/or more than 5500 rpm dual springs are needed, so you're good there. You were asking for another perfect cam (other than the W120); Steve Long Racing Cams has a grind for 1.4-1.5 ratio rockers called the XR292- 292 adv dur, 254'@ 0.050", .389" cam lift which is about .54" valve lift with 1.4 rockers. It will peak at 6000 (or a little more) so it won't rev quite as high as the W120/1.25 combo (200?rpm short; not really much..), but has about .045" more lift which is more suited to your heads and will translate into a little more power all around (where's the grinning devil emoticon when you need it???). He also makes the XR302, but it's almost identical in specs to the FK8 and Web 86B..If you talk to him, could you ask him the difference between the XR292 and XR294? The 294 has the same dur @ 0.050" (254') but has .004" more cam lift. If the profile and lobe center are the same as the 292 it would also be a candidate here.

The Kads would work with maybe one step? richer jetting, I would think. And the 40IDF's would probably work as well, with 34 or 36mm vents.

PS- Keep the bugsprays hanging on the wall...

"PS- Keep the bugsprays hanging on the wall... "

I'm waiting for an inline flathead '49 Plymouth engine to turn up in the driveway, they'd be great on that with an old Offy or Fenton manifold and home-made tube header.

I have a dream of building something like this, but with a Plymouth flathead and three speed box:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/bugeyecopy.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/bugeyeagainagaincopy.jpg

Using the body panels from this wreck that I just got yesterday:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/r2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/r3.jpg

Looking at the Frog Eye, I LOVE that he's running a VW front beam with the weight of a 348 behind it, give me SUCH hope ! !

Use my old VW sling-shot dragster frame:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/c4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/c3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/c2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/c1.jpg

Cut the rear torsion housing away and run a clean four link out back:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Universal-Street-Hot-Rod-Parallel-Rear-Four-Link-Kit-4-Bar-Kit-32-1-2-Bars-NICE-/350541777048?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item519deb0898

Hook up an un-shortened Vega or early Jeep CJ rear end, and the rest is Easy Peasy.

Of course, this is SO far off topic that it ought to be deleted right NOW. Plus, I'm still gathering the rest of the bits for the Fiat engine, that MGA junker is another two years away minimum.

Still, when the parts come available, gotta grab 'em up. Who could pass up a free MGA, why the parts along are worth . . . nothing . . .

I don't remember the last time I say a bugeyed sprite! And never with a powerplant like that... You're a visionary, TC!

PS- you mentioned about Low Bugget changing; do you know what's happened there?

You're insane, TC. I love it!

You know, Allen, I haven't heard much from that group in almost two years. I know that AJ stopped doing the carb work himself at one point, but I think that a problem came up with the worker who WAS doing them because a Buddy didn't see his carbs for almost four months, but was promised them almost every other week.

When I was in contact, AJ was very open and available. We used to call him after each drag meet and discuss what was right and wrong with the car during the drive home. Extremely free with all of his know-how.

There was something going on with his turbo kit as well, first shipping it with the progressive two barrel Weber and swearing by it, then abruptly shifting to what was basically the two barrel Holley replacement for the Mustang/Motorcraft factory original carbs.

After that, we just fell out of contact with him. VERY much to our detriment, his work with the simple Kadrons was really ground breaking and superb when he was performing the alterations himself. His Kadron Class racing was a cool idea and really prompted a great exchange of good information on how to get the carbs to run sweet, even to the point of mimicking the performance of the smaller Webers.

Who knows about now. There are currently a LOT more great tuners than there were just four years ago. With TheSamba and ShopTalk and the rest, there's barely a scrap of secret info left. You can nearly build a plug and play eleven second motor based on an afternoon's read on any "performance VW engine" forum out there.

Weird. Sorta true. VERY cool.

Pwft. A 348?

Build the MGA with a 409, TC! With the VW BJ beam. Drag race the Bugeye & make us all proud.

I was just at Low Bugget last week getting AJ's linkage to replace stock as I didn't want a balance tube, I finally rebuilt the Kadrons and had AJ put in vacuum tube in to go with the SVDA dizzy I got from him.
AJ and crew have always been very helpful,I was suprised recently to see the comments on Samba.

TC that MGA is Bitchin!

TC. If that inline flathead '49 Plymouth engine ever shows up in your driveway, give me a call and I'll walk you through the rebuild. My very first car was a 51 Plymouth convertible that my dad bought me for $55 in 1967. It didn't run and I had to rebuild the engine, twice! Apparently, I dropped a nut in the manifold and the engine seized up about a block from my house on my first drive. I hated that car back then, because all my friends had 55, 56 or 57 Chevys, but I would love to have it now.

"Build the MGA with a 409"

Funny that you should mention. Way back when, I buried a 409 in the soft dirt under the elevated back deck of my Father's house.

We semi-recently sold that house after his death and I spent a couple of days poking shovels into that earth trying to find the old engine.

No luck. Over the years and the weather and considering the weight of that thing, it must have worked it's way down a bit deeper than I originally placed it.

I owned three 409 Chevy convertibles in a row back then, two '62's and a'64.


My buddy had a '49 Plymouth business coupe when I was a kid, I had a '56 Chevy convertible. I'd have traded him in a second if he would have agreed. Seeing that great pic of the original Ram Chargers coupe was all it took for me. The Hell with cool, I wanted brutal, and a jacked-up Plymouth Gasser was just out of reach.

An '09 would be terrific, but getting to letter "Mopar Powered" on the fenders and having that insane straight six anvil under the hood is just too sweet to pass up. My old VW friend/mentor found a slant six as a back up. Equally strange/uncommon but not as pure evil looking as the rusty cast iron top view of a flat head six. The way the water gathers in the spark plug pockets, quivers and dances when the engine revs . . . I really like that.

DRAT ! ! !

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flat-Head-Motor-and-Transmission-complete-and-turns-over-/180830515923?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2a1a56b2d3

The answer to my prayers (Can you REALLY pray to a deity and ask for a 60 year old engine . . . ?) but it may as well be in Alaska.

Just LOOK at how heavy it seems, squatting there, all big and mean and evil. I can tell, even from just looking at the pics, that it SEVERELY wants to squash all of my fingers between it and any hard surface that it can get close to.

TC, you have really bad man. Good luck.