Just placed my order for a Beck Speedster after a long 15 year wait. Right now I've chosen to go with a 2054cc CB built motor. This, after speaking with Carey, who has been nothing short of awesome to work with so far. I want good reliability, want it to be quick, but not run too hot. I wonder what setup has worked for others. Definitely want air cooled and not water cooled. Opinions? Thoughts?
Replies sorted oldest to newest
If you are definite on an aircooled, ask Cory what he thinks about a Type IV engine.
1915 cc is a great engine that Pat Downs/CB Performance puts out. Good power and reliability---and not so big that it is stressed, so it should last a long time.
Congrats on scoring a Beck---you're certain to love it and Cary gets nothing but rave reviews on service and support here on the SOC.
Jack, thanks for the quick response. I'll chat anew with Carey. He likes both engine builds and recommended the 2054.
You'll like the performance of the 2054 over the 1915. Heck, if you had to move up the 2110 Pat Downs builds is awesome.
I love my 2110, I also liked my 1600.
Whether the engine is a 1776, 1915, 2054, 2110, 2180 (with thickwall 92mm cylinders), 2276 or anything in between, if it's well built with good parts, the combo is designed to make power to 5500 or 6,000rpm, and there is adequate airflow into the engine compartment there shouldn't be any major difference in engine life and reliability. More displacement gives more bottom end/lower midrange torque, and that makes these cars just that much more fun to drive.
You had to know that a "perfect engine" thread would get me and Al out of the woodwork. It's like poking a bear-- you're going to get a response, like it or not. This one is not "Teby 2-paragraph approved", but I'll try to stay on point. My wife reminds me that not everybody is entitled to my opinion, but it's difficult to sit on my hands when I'm sure I'm right (even when I'm not). I could be wrong, but I'm not (no I'm not). I'm just a busted up old pipefitter, so take it with a grain of salt.
Let me start by saying, hindsight is always 20/20. Given the cornucopia of options for engines, there are less paths to righteousness than you would think.
I had two cars with 1776s. I told myself, and even made some failed attempts at arguing that the engines nicely replicated the original's power, etc., blah, blah, blah.
Once I decided I didn't care so much about exactly "replicating", a bigger engine became something of a no-brainer.
I've had every permutation of Type 1 back there since-- big drag-racing 2332, exotic twin-plug 2276, "standard" 2110. Of all these engines, the bang/buck sweet-spot is the 2110. It neatly cleaves the middle-ground between maximizing power and reliability.
Actually, that last sentence indicates that you are giving something up from a reliability standpoint with a 2110, and I don't think you are. I know I may get some blow-back on this-- but IMHO, it's about the maximum engine size that will be nicely supported with stock-ish head castings (which ends up being a big deal from a cooling standpoint). Everybody (rightly) says, "the power is in the heads"-- get much bigger, and to maximize the displacement you'll need castings that don't cool as well, welding on stock castings, or both.
CB's new 044 Panchito head is almost a miracle. The flow they get out of it (unported) with the small runner size means that an engine built with these heads will make power from idle to 6500 RPM, assuming the target HP is kept in the 150-ish range. They have very, very open castings for cooling. Coupled with 90.5 Mahles or thick-wall 92 AAs (2180), these would be the perfect starting point for a nice speedster engine. Actually, if I were doing a Type 1 again, it'd be the only thing I'd consider.
Jack's right about Type 4, although the sticker-shock of a nicely built 2.3-ish Type 4 will run most people off. It's definitely a buy once/cry once proposition. That's what I was saying about hindsight. If I'd have known how much money/time/effort I was going to pour into the back of my car, I'd have just bit the bullet on the front end and gotten an engine that fixes all the Type 1 ailments, and gives up nothing (except money). The ONLY touble at this point is finding a builder for hi-po Type 4 engines. Jake Raby still does them, but the pricing has always run off most guys. Greg from FAT Performance is closing up shop. That leaves.... crickets.
Good luck. Forewarned is forearmed.
Tom Blankinship posted:The 2054 is a slightly stroked 1915, which adds torque, which is what you feel accelerating. I had a CB 2054 in my Beck and loved it until I went Suby.
>
Thanks for your feedback Tom. I wonder, what made you switch from the air cooled to the Suby setup?
Well, in terms of air cooled reliability and good running, my last IM had a CB built 2332 c.c. engine with Weber carbs, and I never had to touch the carbs the entire time I had the car. In fact, all I ever did to the car was to change the oil regularly, which I did myself. I am not very mechanical, and I felt perfectly at ease with the engine. Did a couple of long distance trips with no concerns at all.
It ran perfectly, had great power, and always started. The Weber carbs allowed the use of a manual (pull) choke, which I used as needed. I would start the car, wait a minute or two, and then drive off with no problem (I do the same with my fuel injected flat six that I have now). I had many cars in the past with carburetors and chokes, and never had much trouble with them. I drove two Karmann Ghias in the ancient past and never fiddled with the carb(s).
If you want 'old school', air cooled is the way to go. But, even Porsche has gone water based these days, mainly for emissions and customer reasons.
But, it's a personal preference. 
I had many 1600 cc and one 2110cc now with a subie 2.5L much more consistent torque and drivability. Never owned a type iV but I agree with Jack, with all the oiling improvements a type IV seems like the choice for AC... for long term reliability and a great torque curve... that is if your stuck on AC.
Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:You had to know that a "perfect engine" thread would get me and Al out of the woodwork. It's like poking a bear-- you're going to get a response, like it or not. This one is not "Teby 2-paragraph approved", but I'll try to stay on point. My wife reminds me that not everybody is entitled to my opinion, but it's difficult to sit on my hands when I'm sure I'm right (even when I'm not). I could be wrong, but I'm not (no I'm not). I'm just a busted up old pipefitter, so take it with a grain of salt.
Let me start by saying, hindsight is always 20/20. Given the cornucopia of options for engines, there are less paths to righteousness than you would think.
I had two cars with 1776s. I told myself, and even made some failed attempts at arguing that the engines nicely replicated the original's power, etc., blah, blah, blah.
Once I decided I didn't care so much about exactly "replicating", a bigger engine became something of a no-brainer.
I've had every permutation of Type 1 back there since-- big drag-racing 2332, exotic twin-plug 2276, "standard" 2110. Of all these engines, the bang/buck sweet-spot is the 2110. It neatly cleaves the middle-ground between maximizing power and reliability.
Actually, that last sentence indicates that you are giving something up from a reliability standpoint with a 2110, and I don't think you are. I know I may get some blow-back on this-- but IMHO, it's about the maximum engine size that will be nicely supported with stock-ish head castings (which ends up being a big deal from a cooling standpoint). Everybody (rightly) says, "the power is in the heads"-- get much bigger, and to maximize the displacement you'll need castings that don't cool as well, welding on stock castings, or both.
CB's new 044 Panchito head is almost a miracle. The flow they get out of it (unported) with the small runner size means that an engine built with these heads will make power from idle to 6500 RPM, assuming the target HP is kept in the 150-ish range. They have very, very open castings for cooling. Coupled with 90.5 Mahles or thick-wall 92 AAs (2180), these would be the perfect starting point for a nice speedster engine. Actually, if I were doing a Type 1 again, it'd be the only thing I'd consider.
Jack's right about Type 4, although the sticker-shock of a nicely built 2.3-ish Type 4 will run most people off. It's definitely a buy once/cry once proposition. That's what I was saying about hindsight. If I'd have known how much money/time/effort I was going to pour into the back of my car, I'd have just bit the bullet on the front end and gotten an engine that fixes all the Type 1 ailments, and gives up nothing (except money). The ONLY touble at this point is finding a builder for hi-po Type 4 engines. Jake Raby still does them, but the pricing has always run off most guys. Greg from FAT Performance is closing up shop. That leaves.... crickets.
Good luck. Forewarned is forearmed.
Wow Stan...I'm impressed. thanks for sharing your wisdom.
Yes, Stan is one of the most 'wise ones' on this site 
I found these link on type IV... http://www.terrystaley.com/beetle/why_type4.htm
No Doubt Stan knows his stuff. Stan is one of the folks on here, some of whose posts I have copied and saved.
The best thing you have done to aid your quest was to find the SOC site.
For me the three "greats" that I get from owning a Speedster is the car, the people and the events. Speedsters are fantastic in their own right but without the people and events major parts parts of the equation are lost.
I just checked Raby's Type IV site.. Stan is right, the price of an engine is not for the faint of heart. Dollar for Dollar this makes the Subie engines even more attactive.
These cars should have that unique air cooled sound from the fan and exhaust. The type four kits were between 6,000 and 8,500. A complete was between 12,000- 15k. Once you have one you would understand why.
I would like to build one with a 2.4 Polopolus, 4 cylinder 911 configured motor.
A Polo 911/4 is going to ring in at $40K-ish. I'd love to, but even insanity has limits.
Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:A Polo 911/4 is going to ring in at $40K-ish. I'd love to, but even insanity has limits.
Yep, but I have heads, cylinders and all the other misc parts. My big expense is the case and crankshaft. Still pricey, but saving for it.
"one can only wish and work towards making it true. I just hope it's while I can still drive!"
Wow Anthony, that would be awesome to accomplish! I look forward to following that endeavor.
As far as building a T4, why is Raby the only real choice? Can't any ace AC mechanic build one for less?
It's a yawning hole, waiting for somebody to step into.
Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:It's a yawning hole, waiting for somebody to step into.
Raby' a good shop. He uses only his parts or something he's used with success. He reminds me of Gene Berg. Berg would sell a part you could buy elsewhere that was the same quality but he said his was better. We have built type 4's and can do it from a mild motor to injected motor. Bottom line is they cost more to build. If you don't have a core for a base the costs add up quickly. Then there's the cooling system and exhaust. That could be as high as $2500.00 alone.
Does anyone know why CB Performance never got going on the Type IV
Because their market base is type 1. There are more type 1 vehicles and applications than the type 4. The type 4 market began in the buses and 411 model. The 411 model never took off.
I was just curious. If using a 914 engine and transmission in the speedster replica, can you just turn the whole set up around or does the transmission have to be adjusted going from a 914 mid-engine to Speedster rear engine layout.
IaM-Ray posted:Does anyone know why CB Performance never got going on the Type IV
Because the VW aftermarket grew up around drag racing, and the Type 4 is ill-suited to drag racing.
The Type 4 heads (where it all begins and ends) cool much better than Type 1 heads, with their exhaust ports on the bottom rather than out the ends. However, they do not flow as well without significant investment. A similar investment in Type 1 heads will result in heads that flow much better. In a drag racing engine, cooling doesn't matter (most don't even have a shroud). Neither does things like longevity, etc.
The Type 4 engine is heavier by a significant margin. In addition, until the Type 1 shroud was adapted to the Type 4 (upright conversion), you were locked in to a cooling/alternator arrangement that was pretty heavy and rare and didn't work all that well.
There are lots of good parts available for Type 4 (thank the 914 crowd), but simple stuff like a "cali conversion" cooling shroud is a roll-it-yourself proposition. Len Hoffmann from HAM is doing a new, massaged and improved Type 4 head casting that meets pretty much every need we would have. Chris from Tangerine Racing does a really, really nice Tri-Y header. Tiger even has a Type 4 sidewinder. But there's nobody besides the Type 4 Store (formerly a RAT enterprise, now owned by Charles Navaro over at LN Engineering) putting it all together in one place, and the Type 4 Store is parts only.
I still think somebody like Pat Downs would have the world by the tail if he put some significant development into an EFI/crank-fired turn-key "GT" Type 4 built to make 175 hp reliably. it could have a choice of pancake cooling for the 914/bus market, and upright cooling for the rest of the world. Twin-plug and dry-sump could be options. Sell the long-block in the $15K range, and people would beat a path to the door.
Marty Grzynkowicz posted:I was just curious. If using a 914 engine and transmission in the speedster replica, can you just turn the whole set up around or does the transmission have to be adjusted going from a 914 mid-engine to Speedster rear engine layout.
You need to flip the ring gear. The other thing is the cooling arrangement (see above). The stock 914 set-up is FAR from ideal.
Ray: "Over its six year production run, Volkswagen manufactured 367,728 Type 4 models". That, with an estimated (by me) additional 50,000 914's (probably generous) doesn't make a whole lot of engines left to rebuild into a few speedsters, compared to the millions of Type 1's built and how many are still kicking around (also echoing Stan's comment about Type 1's being better for Drag racing and maybe the dune buggy crowd (notoriously cheap buggers, there)).
The stock 914 cooling sucked, but the pancake cooling of the 4-series was, as far as I've heard, pretty darn good.
Thanks for the info guys. Some of my friends had type 3's and many type 2's and there were some 411's out there. I still really like the notchback flavour. 
Does this setup actually work? Is anyome in the US actually using it? Sure looks Awesome! I think the outlaw named Black Betty runs this set up on a type-1.
http://www.riechertmotorentechnik.de/en/coolingt4.htm
Marty Grzynkowicz posted:Does this setup actually work? Is anyome in the US actually using it? Sure looks Awesome! I think the outlaw named Black Betty runs this set up on a type-1.
http://www.riechertmotorentechnik.de/en/coolingt4.htm
Not as well as a DTM. The Riechert system is kind've cool, but Jake's DTM is pretty much the highwater mark of cooling.
Makes me think of a Corvair.
So True, Stan. I have never seen oil; temps over 185 degrees in any ambient temps and we get some extremely high hot days over here in Dogpatch. Worry about high temps in my Mexicrate 1915 were a constant worry but I never even think about it any more.
As everyone knows, The nemesis of an air cooled engine , Type I or Type IV, is heat. With the DTM and the Seatrab oil radiator heat is never an issue.
I initially switched to the Type IV for reliability--I dreaded having an issue somewhere on an interstate with my wife along with the1915, and swapped it for the IV soon after getting the car. The confidence (and amazing performance) makes whatever I spent for the engine an non-issue.
I could fill the tank and head for the West coast in the morning ---actually I have done that! Looking forward to repeating that dream-trip one day.
I think the so-called type 5 is interesting. It is a water cooled case with the water jacket removed. Then you can fit type 1 cylinders and heads. You get the benefit of lower cost type 1 performance parts with a more robust case.
Regarding sound. I was concerned about sound degradation when I went Suby. Original engine was 2054 CB with an A1 Sidewinder. New engine is 2.5L Suby with custom dual headers through glass packs with augers. It's still a flat four sound and the sound is BETTER. It growls on acceleration and quieter at idle and cruise.
As to sound: if that fan ain't whining, it ain't a 356. Period. That said, I have seen/heard a few Soobies, and generally, they sound just fine. You can make any engine sound off. Just not air-cooled, that's all. And I'll tell you that a Type 1 (or a Type 4) and a real 356 are quite similar from an aural standpoint, but they are NOT the same. The 356 has it own timbre, and the VWs sound like -- VWs. It is a subtle thing, however.
I've been recommending, and selling, 2054cc motors for many, many years now. My conversation with Pat on Friday went something like this.
Me: Hey Pat, I sold 3 more 2054cc powered Speedsters this week.
Pat: Why so many 2054cc?
Me: Because you told me that anytime I sold a 1915cc 120hp to offer them a free bump to a 2054cc since it cost the same to build the 72mm crank version of the motor and it made more power. People seem to love a free 20hp bump.
Pat: Ok, well, start selling them 2110cc motors instead. It'll cost a couple hundred bucks more, add an additional 10hp over the 2054 (150hp total), plus it runs cooler and is a better choice for your Speedster.
Me: I'll send out a few messages and get back to you.
For a couple of hundred dollars more, the 2110 sounds like a good buy. 
2110 is absolutely the sweet-spot.
